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Viserys's Gift


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22 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Maybe, like I said it's definitely possible. He may have wanted her for her Targ blood but I don't think that means much when we are talking about what he promised to Illyrio in return for the marriage. 

That's the thing is we don't know of really any trouble Drogo went through to marry her. We know he gave Illyrio horses & slaves. I do wonder why, for all the talk of the Dothraki doing things in their own time, their own way etc Drogo gives Illyrio his "gifts" upon marrying her. 

I'm not sure, it may be just as you say - that Drogo coveted a bride of old Valyria. I've always read that passage to mean that Illyrio thinks she is beautiful because of her Targ looks & that the looks will entrance Drogo, but either way. 

I disagree. I think it's perfectly reasonable to ponder over a potential different deal. Jorah is exiled, we know why he was going along, to betray Dany & be allowed to return to Westeros for it. 

It's not just possible, it's the only reason he would have for marrying her rather than someone in his khal, a strong, fierce woman of high stature. And he could do this anywhere at any time, not march his khalasar all the way to Pentos and make promises that he won't keep that exposes him as a cheat and a liar. He is taking a huge risk here, not just because Dany is not Dothraki but she is extremely young and might not even be able to provide him with any children, let alone the khal of khals.

 

22 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sorry the quoting isn't working right. So, he expects Viserys to die, but expects him to die after reaching the 7k & also expects him to show the Dothraki where the plunder is but wants him to stay in Pentos? Don't those things seem contradictory? He also tells Tyrion he expected them both to die iirc. 

Sure, if Drogo commands it. We will probably just have to agree to disagree here because I don't find it very likely that half of your khalasar is sent off on some mission while the remaining stay behind. How did Drogo expect to meet back up with the rest of his khalasar? The only possiblity, IMO is that Drogo planned on leading the khalasar himself. But I don't think he did plan any such thing because of the way he responds to Dany when she wants him to go to Westeros. 

I don't think so. Viserys was 8 when he left. How many 8 year olds have a good handle on geography, let alone who the weakest targets are, & things have likely changed a bit since he left. Besides, Illyrio has Varys who certainly knows much better than Viserys. 

Jorah is there - he speaks both languages. A much better guide than Viserys, no? 

Besides you are pulling this out of thin air, there is nothing to suggest Viserys knows any thing more than what an 8 year old who left their home many years before would remember of the land. They don't need Viserys for this. 

If it made no difference to Illyrio who did it make a difference to? Who wanted Viserys along to show them where the castles & plunder are? 

& yet, he would have done just that if what you say is true, no? He would have handed both Targs & eggs over to Drogo on a promise to invade Westeros, right? 

To be clear I'm not disputing Drogo would have kept his word, I'm disputing what his word was. 

It certainly seems to be part of Illyrio's plan but that doesn't mean Drogo planned it or even knew about it. 

Yeah, probably, he certainly would want control of the dragons, he may want to keep Dany to marry to Aegon now that Drogo is dead. Who knows. 

I thought you were suggesting Illyrio could hatch them himself. I see only two possibilites in regard to the eggs, either he thought they were just stone, never to hatch, a pretty gift for the bride OR he knows something of the prophecy & so sends them with Dany. I'm speculating. I'm not saying it's this or nothing, this is the facts or whatever. I'm just throwing ideas around. 

Evidenced by me saying "he could have" or "he thought they were stone". I think it was pretty clear I wasn't trying to present that as something I "knew" 

You are saying things that aren't indicated in the text & presenting them as facts that overrule any other suggestion. 

 

But read the quote you quoted: 

He will honor his promise, he isn't a trader, he didn't purchase something from Viserys - he was given a gift & will give one in return, in his own time. It doesn't say anything about what the gift will be. 

And again, Jorah already has a plan to get back to Westeros & it has nothing to do with Viserys going. He is there to betray Dany to be able to get back to Westeros. 

And also again, I have not suggested one time Drogo wouldn't be true to his word. 

 

Yeah, these were my questions also. I don't think he did just want them to die but I don't know what he did want with them. 

 

We know Illyrio is plotting to put Aegon on the throne, so of course Viserys has to die. Sorry, but I don't see how this could be confusing. All Illyrio needs from Viserys is to get the Dothraki to Westeros, after that he is expendable. So of course he wants him to stay in Pentos until the army is delivered, to prevent him from doing the exact stupid thing that he did.

Illyrio tells Tyrion he never expected Dany to survive the Dothraki. He said nothing about Viserys, other than he was a fool.

Well who else is going to command it? Drogo made the deal, Drogo will command the army to said, and they will sail not just upon pain of death but pain of obliteration for all eternity. It's not half, its less than a quarter, probably far less. Why would he need to meet back up with this khalasar? They are across the ocean. He's never going to see them again. They are his gift to Viserys, so why would Drogo think he's going to lead them?

Viserys knows a lot more about Westeros than any Dothraki. He will have been educated as well as Bran, who knowss all the major houses, their sigils, words, etc. He knows all the regions, major rivers, where all the main seats are located . . .  And you can bet he's been keeping abreast of things happening in Westeros since his exile, while the Dothraki are not. What does Varys' knowledge have to do with anything? Is he, a eunuch, going to lead the Dothraki? Talk about not following strength.

Jorah has nothing to offer the khal in exchange for an army. Viserys does?

Viserys' leadership skills don't make any difference to Illyrio, which is why your entire argument about the Dothraki only following strength is irrelevant. They won't know he is a weakling until they get to Westeros, probably would not even meet him until they are aboard ship, or even disembarking in Westeros. It's only once he starts to ride with them that things will go tits up and they will kill him, which suits Illyrio just fine.

Yes, Illyrio knows that the khal will keep his word. It's endemic to their culture. And again, if this is not the plan, then why is he promising it to the Golden Company whose support is crucial to Aegon?

How could this be part of Illyrio's plan if Drogo does not know about it? Illyrio is just hoping that Drogo's gift will be an army and not a pile of skins or a herd of horses?

Illyrio could have gifted Dany with all sorts of jewels and furs and other trappings of wealth, but he chose to give her three virtually priceless dragon eggs. To me, the intent is clear: to show everyone that Dany is blood of the dragon, which is what makes her such a valuable bride above all others, worthy of not just some trifling gift in return but an army to win a crown.

There is nothing in the text that suggests that this gift is anything other than an army for Viserys. So for you to say I am saying things that aren't indicated in the text but you're not is highly hypocritical and factually inaccurate.

These are your questions because you are trying to create scenarios that don't exist. Illyrio didn't want either of them to die, although he expected it of Dany. What he wanted is perfectly clear: and army to stir up trouble so Aegon could come in and save the day. He most certainly doesn't want Drogo to be leading this army because that would be a far more serious threat. Viserys and 10,000 screamers, max.

 

 

 

 

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21 hours ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

So don't you think if Illyrio needed Viserys to stay alive & not reveal his weakness long enough for him to get to Westeros he would have done more to make him stay in Pentos? 

It is no secret where the castles in the 7k are lol, Illyrio likely knows, he could probably have Varys get him a quite detailed map. Jorah knows. They don't need Viserys for this. 

If none of it matters why are you arguing it? Who, if not Illyrio, wants Viserys to show the Dothraki where the plunder is? 

But this is exactly what you are suggesting he did!

If he paid Drogo (Dany) & return was promised conquering of the 7k, or a crown for Viserys or just getting to Westeros or whatever, then he literally handed his valuables over on a promise to be paid back later. 

What I'm suggesting would be the opposite. I'm suggesting whatever Illyrio bargained for to broker the marriage, he already received & Viserys crown had naught to do with it. 

Agreed. Until the attempt on her life in which Drogo changes his mind. 

This is Viserys's plan certainly. It's what Illyrio promised, though I assume Dany was to come with him as well. Viserys does tell her several times this is their ticket home. 

I'm not, I'm saying the lack of evidence that Drogo intended on going to the 7k means it's a possibility he did not intend on going to the 7k lol. But it isn't just not from Drogo's mouth. We don't hear this promise corroborated by anyone. All we have are vague promises of gifts when Drogo feels the time is right. 

Idk what you're saying, if what you say happened, happened then Illyrio did just this. Jorah could care less about the plan, he had his own plan. 

& Jorah knows much more than him probably. Who would keep him? The Dothraki? Because they don't. 

Sorry, everything is just screwed up on this thread. I don't know if I can keep contributing.

Not one single Dothraki would know anything about Viserys if he had stayed in Pentos, like Illyrio wanted. There is no reason for him to even join the Dothraki until that are ready to take ship, or even until they land in Westeros. By then, his purpose has been served.

Viserys is the one with the bride for Drogo. Why would he give an army to Jorah or Viserys. Again, all of this is irrelevant to Illyrio. I'm not the one arguing it. You are. You keep insisting that this plan isn't possible because the Dothraki won't follow weak Viserys. They will follow him until they land in Westeros because they don't know him. That's all that matters.

No, Illyrio is not a fool. He knows Drogo is a man of his word. He is a khal and khals do not welch on their promises or else they lose credibility among their people. Drogo will provide this army. There is no doubt about it. If Illyrio had any doubt about this, he would not have made this deal and he most certainly would not have promised this army to the Golden Company.

No, Dany was not going to go with Viserys. Why would she. She is khaleesi, mother of the Stallion Who Mounts the World. She is Dothraki now. There is absolutely no reason for her to join Viserys and every reason in the world not to.

Again, Drogo never intended to go to the 7K. All he promised was an army for Viserys. This is known. Sorry, but you keep making these assumptions and then questioning why they don't fit with the text. The right way to proceed is to question your initial assumptions, not create new ones that lead to further conflicts with the text.

A promise from a Dothraki khal is not the same as a promise from some Pentoshi street hustler. My point, as I have made perfectly clear over and over again, is that Illyrio would not agree to this plan unless he was 100 percent sure that Drogo would keep his word. And both he and Jorah know that a khal's word is as good as his bond. And Jorah in particular would not agree to this scheme unless he was certain it would work, which is why he became Viserys' sworn sword and was to follow him back to Westeros.

Sure, Jorah probably knows more than Viserys. But why would the Dothraki get rid of him? He's already ridden with them? Knows their ways. And Jorah is most certainly not a weak man. And what does this have to do with anything? 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Yeah, they did. I'm not questioning whether or not Illyrio told people this, we know he did. I'm questioning whether or not Drogo actually promised it. 

So your take is Dany was given to Drogo for free?

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4 minutes ago, sifth said:

So your take is Dany was given to Drogo for free?

No, not at all. We know Drogo gave Illyrio horses & slaves, maybe he promised something else. Maybe he promised to give Viserys a worthy gift in return for his sisters hand in marriage. It could be any number of things. 

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

It's not just possible, it's the only reason he would have for marrying her rather than someone in his khal, a strong, fierce woman of high stature. And he could do this anywhere at any time, not march his khalasar all the way to Pentos and make promises that he won't keep that exposes him as a cheat and a liar.

There is nothing in what I'm suggesting that would make Drogo expose himself as a cheat & a liar. I haven't suggested anything that would imply this. Whatever Drogo promised, he would have delivered. I've said that a few times I think, so I'm not sure why you keep saying these things. 

I disagree this is the only possibility but I agree it is a possibliity. It doesn't matter to what I'm suggesting though. This has naught to do with whether or not Illyrio was truthful to Viserys about what his payment would be for Dany's hand in marriage. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

We know Illyrio is plotting to put Aegon on the throne, so of course Viserys has to die. Sorry, but I don't see how this could be confusing. All Illyrio needs from Viserys is to get the Dothraki to Westeros, after that he is expendable. So of course he wants him to stay in Pentos until the army is delivered, to prevent him from doing the exact stupid thing that he did.

So, Illyrio's plan is to keep Viserys in Pentos, so as not to allow the Dothraki to see his weakness, in order to meet his end goal of getting the Dothraki to Westeros with Viserys in tow? 

Why, then, does he allow things to not go that way? He has planned years, he isn't going to let it all be undone because Viserys is a spoiled brat. 

I'm not debating as to why he wants him to stay in Pentos, I'm saying why if this was necessary to meet his end goal did he so easily let something happen that would ruin it? 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

He is taking a huge risk here, not just because Dany is not Dothraki but she is extremely young and might not even be able to provide him with any children, let alone the khal of khals.

He isn't taking a huge risk lol She is flowered & so old enough for the khal or any lord for that matter. Even the Dothraki know fertility isn't guaranteed, it isn't taking a huge risk to marry someone that you don't know is fertile, it's what they all do because they have no way of making sure other than if they have already bore children. 

We don't know he knew anything about the stallion prior to the Dosh Khaleen saying it. It is your position that Khal Drogo knew of the propphecy & was setting out to fulfill it? It's possible but where is the evidence suggesting it? Where is the evidence suggesting he thinks he needs a Targ bride to do this? I'm not against it, I'm just wondering. 

At any rate though, again, I don't see what this has to do with whether or not Drogo promised to provide Viserys with an army or a crown. Both things can be true, no? That he was trying to fulfill a prophecy & he promised something other than an army or a crown? 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Well who else is going to command it? Drogo made the deal, Drogo will command the army to said, and they will sail not just upon pain of death but pain of obliteration for all eternity. It's not half, its less than a quarter, probably far less. Why would he need to meet back up with this khalasar? They are across the ocean. He's never going to see them again. They are his gift to Viserys, so why would Drogo think he's going to lead them?

Sure, maybe but again we don't know the details. We don't know if Drogo promised him a crown - which would indicate to me he intended on conquering the 7k for Viserys, or if he promised an army, if he did how big of one? Or if he promised something else all together or if the gift was even named. That's the whole point of the thread, we don't know the details & so they are open for speculation. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Viserys knows a lot more about Westeros than any Dothraki.

Any person born in Westeros knows more about Westeros than the Dothraki. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

He will have been educated as well as Bran, who knowss all the major houses, their sigils, words, etc. He knows all the regions, major rivers, where all the main seats are located . . .

right, up until he was 8 & not since then. We have no reason to believe Viserys has anything outside of common knowledge about Westeros. I think it's pretty unlikely Viserys remembers all of this anyway, he doesn't seem to be the brightest. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

And you can bet he's been keeping abreast of things happening in Westeros since his exile, while the Dothraki are not. What does Varys' knowledge have to do with anything? Is he, a eunuch, going to lead the Dothraki? Talk about not following strength.

Quote please. Anything suggesting Viserys vast knowledge of things abraod. One single thing that provides evidence that Viserys knows fuck all more than Jorah or anyone else from Westeros. 

What does Viserys's knowledge have to do with anything? You are the one hell bent that they need Viserys for this information that only he can provide. I'm saying it's common knowledge that could be provided to Illyrio & then given to Drogo any number of ways. Viserys isn't needed for this. 

This is all assuming this was the plan anyway. None of this needs debated if Drogo promised something else & the debate doesn't lend credence to the idea that Drogo promised an army. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Jorah has nothing to offer the khal in exchange for an army. Viserys does?

? I'm not saying anything about Jorah exchanging anything for an army? I'm saying all of this knowledge that you say Viserys has to be present for is in Jorah too. He has all that plus some & is riding with the khalasar, readily available. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Viserys' leadership skills don't make any difference to Illyrio, which is why your entire argument about the Dothraki only following strength is irrelevant.

It's not irrelevant, the Dothraki follow strength. That's the truth of it. Doesn't matter what Illyrio thinks of anything, it's the Dothraki way. What Illyrio thinks of Viserys's leader ship skills has zero to do with who the Dothraki will follow. My point about Illyrio's thoughts on Viserys are that I don't think he ever truly wanted him to sit the throne anyway, which I believe is something you agree with? 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

They won't know he is a weakling until they get to Westeros, probably would not even meet him until they are aboard ship, or even disembarking in Westeros. It's only once he starts to ride with them that things will go tits up and they will kill him, which suits Illyrio just fine.

Unless they hid him away in some cabin it wouldn't take long before they knew he was a joke. At any rate, again, if this is the plan, why did Illyrio let it all go awry? 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Yes, Illyrio knows that the khal will keep his word. It's endemic to their culture.

I haven't once disputed this, I'm not sure what the hang up is here... 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

And again, if this is not the plan, then why is he promising it to the Golden Company whose support is crucial to Aegon?

I don't know, he is a tricky fellow. He could have any number of things up his sleeves. It isn't as if his plan is so clear & known to us readers. There are too many possibilites to guess, I think. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

How could this be part of Illyrio's plan if Drogo does not know about it? Illyrio is just hoping that Drogo's gift will be an army and not a pile of skins or a herd of horses?

Maybe it's not a part of Illyrio's plan? Maybe it is now but wasn't until after  Viserys died? 

What happened to all the excitement over how Illyrio wouldn't give all payment away on a promise? You haven't replied about that part. This is essentially exactly what your idea of things entails. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Illyrio could have gifted Dany with all sorts of jewels and furs and other trappings of wealth, but he chose to give her three virtually priceless dragon eggs. To me, the intent is clear: to show everyone that Dany is blood of the dragon, which is what makes her such a valuable bride above all others, worthy of not just some trifling gift in return but an army to win a crown.

They are symbolic certainly, but with or without the eggs the marriage was brokered. Unless you think Illyrio gifting Dany the eggs was part of the agreement he & Drogo came to? 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

There is nothing in the text that suggests that this gift is anything other than an army for Viserys. So for you to say I am saying things that aren't indicated in the text but you're not is highly hypocritical and factually inaccurate.

I've given my reasons behind speculating that Drogo didn't promise an army. The only thing we have in the text is that Illyrio says Drogo offers an army. 

I'm not trying to be highly hypocritical or inaccurate but you are insisting things we have no proof for, while I'm suggesting possibilites. I'm not against any one idea, just thought it would be fun to throw the ideas around a bit. 

You stated several times that Jorah wouldn't go along with all of this unless the plan was for Viserys to get an army, because he wants to go home but have ignored the fact that Jorah already had his plans for going home. When you state things like they are fact & that anyone who suggests otherwise is silly or lying & then are confronted with the fact that it is wrong & ignore it, it gives me the idea that you are arguing in bad faith. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

These are your questions because you are trying to create scenarios that don't exist. Illyrio didn't want either of them to die, although he expected it of Dany. What he wanted is perfectly clear: and army to stir up trouble so Aegon could come in and save the day. He most certainly doesn't want Drogo to be leading this army because that would be a far more serious threat. Viserys and 10,000 screamers, max.

Please quote for me where it is made perfectly clear that Illyrio wanted an army to stir up trouble so Aegon could come in & save the day, Where he doesn't want Drogo leading this army, & where any specific number of screamers was agreed upon. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Not one single Dothraki would know anything about Viserys if he had stayed in Pentos, like Illyrio wanted. There is no reason for him to even join the Dothraki until that are ready to take ship, or even until they land in Westeros. By then, his purpose has been served.

Right, that's what you keep saying but he did join the Dothraki & ended up dead on the Dothraki sea. That's quite a bit of meticulous planning on Illyrio's part all washed down the drain because Viserys wanted to go with the Dothraki. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Viserys is the one with the bride for Drogo. Why would he give an army to Jorah or Viserys.

I'm not following here, sorry. I've never suggested anyone would give Jorah an army. You are saying he would give an army to Viserys. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Again, all of this is irrelevant to Illyrio. I'm not the one arguing it. You are. You keep insisting that this plan isn't possible because the Dothraki won't follow weak Viserys. They will follow him until they land in Westeros because they don't know him. That's all that matters.

I never insisted it wasn't possible, I've said maybe there are other things going on here. One of the reasons I think it's possible is that Drogo nor anyone else confirm Illyrio's words. Another reason is the Dothraki follow strength & Viserys is weak. Another reason is the conversation between Dany & Drogo when she is asking him to go to Westeros. 

He didn't stay in Pentos, they didn't follow him to Westeros, they do know him, & now he is dead. I think it's pretty impossible that Illyrio's plan was just as you say & he didn't do more to stop Viserys from leaving when literally his entire goal relied on this. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

No, Illyrio is not a fool.

Never said he was. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

He knows Drogo is a man of his word. He is a khal and khals do not welch on their promises or else they lose credibility among their people.

Yep, again. Not sure why you keep talking about this but yes, he is a man of his word, delivers on his promises, all of that. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Drogo will provide this army. There is no doubt about it.

Sure, if that's what he promised. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

If Illyrio had any doubt about this,

He wouldn't have any doubt that Drogo would follow through on his promise. Again though, you repeatedly argued that Illyrio would never ever  pay up front with nothing but a promise in return, all the while arguing that's exactly what he did. I'm not saying he didn't, I'm saying either he did do exactly what you have insisted he wouldn't do (and now are just as adamantly arguing he did do) or he has already been paid. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

he would not have made this deal and he most certainly would not have promised this army to the Golden Company.

LOL I just don't know. You seem to be arguing against things I'm not saying. I don't think Illyrio had any doubt as to whether or not Drogo would deliver on his promise. The thing I'm questioning is what the promise is. Insisting Illyrio wouldn't have made the deal unless he trusted Drogo does nothing to suggest what the actual promise was....

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

No, Dany was not going to go with Viserys.

Quote please. There are quotes saying otherwise. 

Tbf, I think she likely would not have went but you cannot state things like "No, Dany was not going to go with Viserys" like they are well known facts & expect people not to call you out on it. This is my point when talking about things not based in text, there is a difference between saying Dany probably wouldn't have went because this & this & saying "No, Dany was not going to go with Viserys" when it is clearly stated in the text that Dany planned on returning to Westeros with Viserys. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Again, Drogo never intended to go to the 7K. All he promised was an army for Viserys. This is known.

Except, it isn't known. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Sorry, but you keep making these assumptions and then questioning why they don't fit with the text.

Show me the text that proves Drogo promised Viserys an army. Or any of the other plans you have laid forth. There is nothing to suggest they needed Viserys to tell them where the plunder was yet we have spent paragraphs on it, there is nothing to suggest the Dothraki split up there khalasars but you insist this is the plan. 

There is some text that suggests Drogo promised an army or a crown, I'm pretty sure I quoted it in the OP. There is some other evidence that suggests maybe that isn't the case & I'm interested in discussing that. What have I said that doesn't fit with the text? Yes, it woud require Illyrio to have lied to Viserys, but that's it. 

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

The right way to proceed is to question your initial assumptions, not create new ones that lead to further conflicts with the text.

Thank you for your direction but I manage ok. I haven't conflicted anything with the text. I've quoted it, given my interpretation of it, & suggested possible meanings for it. You are the one that has insisted things are set in stone that are anything but clear. I'm not dead set for or against any idea, but the conversation goes no further when you insist it's only your way that can be possible. There are other possibilities, some more likely than others, whether you want to talk about them or not. 

Most of what you have argued with me about does nothing to negate the possibility that Drogo promised something else. 

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1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

Sure, Jorah probably knows more than Viserys. But why would the Dothraki get rid of him? He's already ridden with them? Knows their ways. And Jorah is most certainly not a weak man. And what does this have to do with anything? 

Why would they have to get rid of him? Clearly we aren't understanding each other. You are saying they needed Viserys to tell them where the plunder is, I said they do not need Viserys for that Jorah is there, he could tell them much more about Westeros than Viserys could. Nothing of getting rid of him or giving him an army. 

 

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John Suburbs, I think ‘only follow strength’ in being interpreted differently. Your interpretation is ‘won’t follow demonstrated weakness’ whereas those you are arguing with mean ‘will only follow demonstrated strength’. 

In your interpretation, ignorance falls on the side of Dothraki cooperation, on the other it’s the opposite. They mean the Dothraki will only follow someone who has demonstrated significant strength to them. 
 

I am not particularly on either side, I’m just trying to clear up where it seems to me you folks are repeatedly talking past each other. 

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2 hours ago, James Arryn said:

John Suburbs, I think ‘only follow strength’ in being interpreted differently. Your interpretation is ‘won’t follow demonstrated weakness’ whereas those you are arguing with mean ‘will only follow demonstrated strength’. 

In your interpretation, ignorance falls on the side of Dothraki cooperation, on the other it’s the opposite. They mean the Dothraki will only follow someone who has demonstrated significant strength to them. 
 

I am not particularly on either side, I’m just trying to clear up where it seems to me you folks are repeatedly talking past each other. 

Thanks, I agree. 

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19 hours ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

snip

Well, one more try and I'll leave you to it.

The problem you are having is that you correctly realize that the Dothraki will not follow Viserys, but then you leap to the conclusion that therefore this whole plan is a fake. But Illyrio does not need the Dothraki to follow Viserys. They don't even need to meet him until they board ship for Westeros, and maybe not even until they land. Then if they want to gut and filet him right then and there on the beach, all the better for Illyrio. They will have removed a contender for Aegon's crown and they are now stuck in Westeros with nothing to do but what they naturally do: rampage across the land, killing, raping and plundering. With Robert warring against the Lannisters in the north, the path is wide open to first gain the allegiance of the houses under threat by the Dothraki, then march on KL to take the throne.

The only possible reason Illyrio would have to involve the Dothraki at all is to get a barbarian army from him. He has nothing else that Illyrio cannot get on his own, and probably much cheaper too. Otherwise, he is giving them two Targs and three priceless dragon eggs and getting nothing in return, literally nothing.

 

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54 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

The problem you are having is that you correctly realize that the Dothraki will not follow Viserys, but then you leap to the conclusion that therefore this whole plan is a fake. But Illyrio does not need the Dothraki to follow Viserys. They don't even need to meet him until they board ship for Westeros, and maybe not even until they land. Then if they want to gut and filet him right then and there on the beach, all the better for Illyrio. They will have removed a contender for Aegon's crown and they are now stuck in Westeros with nothing to do but what they naturally do: rampage across the land, killing, raping and plundering. With Robert warring against the Lannisters in the north, the path is wide open to first gain the allegiance of the houses under threat by the Dothraki, then march on KL to take the throne.

No, I'm not jumping to a "conclusion" at all, just pondering. Viserys being weak is just one reason it came to my mind that maybe Drogo never promised an army or a crown. 

55 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

The only possible reason Illyrio would have to involve the Dothraki at all is to get a barbarian army from him. He has nothing else that Illyrio cannot get on his own, and probably much cheaper too. Otherwise, he is giving them two Targs and three priceless dragon eggs and getting nothing in return, literally nothing.

Right, I don't disagree Illyrio probably wanted the Dothraki to cause ruckus in Westeros, only that maybe Illyrio lied to Viserys about what the plan was. 

Was Viserys's agreement even necessary? I suppose it was to Dany, she thinks she has to obey him & wouldn't have went along with the marriage if Viserys hadn't commanded it. 

At any rate, nice chatting with ya. 

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The number of cavalry that was promised was not enough on its own to take Westeros from the damn Baratheons.  The liberators will be the attackers and it is necessary to outnumber the usurpers who will be defending and hiding behind their castle walls.  The real purpose of the Dothraki is to force the usurper and his supporters to tuck tail and hide behind their walls.  Which they will do.  That will give confidence to the rest of the Lords to support their king, King Viserys the Third and take the throne back from Robert. That is if Robert lives that long.  My opinion is he won't be alive.  Jacquen's mission was to systematically murder all of the usurper's family and their supporters. 

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2 hours ago, Wm Portnoy said:

The number of cavalry that was promised was not enough on its own to take Westeros from the damn Baratheons. 

We don't get a number, we don't know how many were promised. 

2 hours ago, Wm Portnoy said:

The liberators will be the attackers and it is necessary to outnumber the usurpers who will be defending and hiding behind their castle walls.  The real purpose of the Dothraki is to force the usurper and his supporters to tuck tail and hide behind their walls.  Which they will do.  That will give confidence to the rest of the Lords to support their king, King Viserys the Third and take the throne back from Robert. That is if Robert lives that long.  My opinion is he won't be alive.  Jacquen's mission was to systematically murder all of the usurper's family and their supporters. 

Have you not finished the books that are out? 

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1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

My personal query about it is regarding how many were promised to Viserys; some reports say 10,000 while Robert heard 100,000.

Why would Viserys think he could take Westeros with 10,000 if Robert took down Rhaegar's 40,000-strong army with a somewhat smaller force (35,000)?

Idk Viserys was an idiot who knew nothing of war. 

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7 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

My personal query about it is regarding how many were promised to Viserys; some reports say 10,000 while Robert heard 100,000.

Why would Viserys think he could take Westeros with 10,000 if Robert took down Rhaegar's 40,000-strong army with a somewhat smaller force (35,000)?

Many of the houses would support Viserys.  He only needed to cross the sea with an army.  Fear of Robert is what kept them in line.  They would have fought to restore the Targaryens if Viserys could show that he had a chance. 

8 hours ago, Wm Portnoy said:

The number of cavalry that was promised was not enough on its own to take Westeros from the damn Baratheons.  The liberators will be the attackers and it is necessary to outnumber the usurpers who will be defending and hiding behind their castle walls.  The real purpose of the Dothraki is to force the usurper and his supporters to tuck tail and hide behind their walls.  Which they will do.  That will give confidence to the rest of the Lords to support their king, King Viserys the Third and take the throne back from Robert. That is if Robert lives that long.  My opinion is he won't be alive.  Jacquen's mission was to systematically murder all of the usurper's family and their supporters. 

Robert and Ned were going to be killed prior to the homecoming of Viserys. 

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7 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Many of the houses would support Viserys.  He only needed to cross the sea with an army.  Fear of Robert is what kept them in line.  They would have fought to restore the Targaryens if Viserys could show that he had a chance.

Could he show them? Viserys didn't seem interested in showing why he should be King instead of Robert, and again, as I mentioned, if he was only given 10,000, I have a hard time believing that he could win, unless more were promised.

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4 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Could he show them? Viserys didn't seem interested in showing why he should be King instead of Robert, and again, as I mentioned, if he was only given 10,000, I have a hard time believing that he could win, unless more were promised.

Viserys had an easy job.  Just stay out of the way and let the Dothraki do what they do and the Baratheon's supporters would retreat back inside their castles in hopes of waiting it out.  Many of the river lords would flock to his banner.  Mercenaries would come as well.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Many of the houses would support Viserys.  He only needed to cross the sea with an army.  Fear of Robert is what kept them in line.  They would have fought to restore the Targaryens if Viserys could show that he had a chance.

Some would, certainly, but many? Idk about that. They didn't seem to mind Robert over much & I would imagine the last Targ king left a bad taste in some people's mouths. Aerys's deeds would have been passed down & relayed. 

 

Eta: plus how do you keep the Dothraki from decemating everything in their path? They would be unfamiliar with allowing people to join their cause when they have surrendered, right? 

Edited by Lyanna<3Rhaegar
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48 minutes ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Some would, certainly, but many? Idk about that. They didn't seem to mind Robert over much & I would imagine the last Targ king left a bad taste in some people's mouths. Aerys's deeds would have been passed down & relayed. 

 

Eta: plus how do you keep the Dothraki from decemating everything in their path? They would be unfamiliar with allowing people to join their cause when they have surrendered, right? 

Not to mention the Dothraki don't respect Viserys.

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