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I Think Varys Had Tywin Poisoned


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The most common theory about Tywin's death is that Oberyn had him poisoned. However like many people, I highly doubt that this is the case considering how difficult it would be to fit it in the timeframe from Oberyn's arrival to the capitol till his death. I do believe though that Tywin was poisoned. 

But the person responsible for having it ordered is Varys.

Varys has been working to get fAegon on the throne. And fAegon and his allies have been waiting impatiently to start invading Westeros. Varys knows they can't keep on waiting forever, so he decides to have Tywin poisoned in order to sow chaos in the realm and allow fAegon and the Golden Company to launch their bid for the throne. He uses Shae has a proxy for his plan, having her slip some sort of poison into Tywin's food and/or drink. During this time, Varys also helps Jaime free Tyrion. Varys hopes to use Tyrion as a diversion to make sure the poison plot doesn't get noticed just in case and also use Tyrion as an alibi just in case.

But of course things don't go exactly as planned. Tyrion kills both Shae and Tywin coincidentally. But thankfully for Varys it does do the job in getting rid of Tywin and using Tyrion as an alibi although in the end Varys himself has no choice to go undercover in order to not be caught by the Iron Throne.

Thoughts on this theory?

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In terms of motive, I could buy Varys poisoning Tywin but don't think your details make much sense. If Varys was prepared to go into hiding why would he need to be subtle about killing Tywin? He wasn't subtle about killing Kevan or Pycelle. If he wasn't planning on going into hiding then how much of an alibi could he have needed? No one in King's Landing would have though he had a motive for this. How hard would it have been to point suspicion at the Martells, especially when we're talking about Cersei? How was he going to point the finger at Tyrion while Tryion was locked up? And why would he trust Shae?

 

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21 minutes ago, Groo said:

In terms of motive, I could buy Varys poisoning Tywin but don't think your details make much sense. If Varys was prepared to go into hiding why would he need to be subtle about killing Tywin? He wasn't subtle about killing Kevan or Pycelle. If he wasn't planning on going into hiding then how much of an alibi could he have needed? No one in King's Landing would have though he had a motive for this. How hard would it have been to point suspicion at the Martells, especially when we're talking about Cersei? How was he going to point the finger at Tyrion while Tryion was locked up? And why would he trust Shae?

 

TBF, Varys didn't consider Tyrion killing Tywin and that act threw a bit of a wrench into his plans. And my guess for his decision to kill Kevan and Pycelle was that he learned from his mistake and knew he had to get rid of people a little bit faster.

Also my guess was that Tyrion fled and then Tywin later got poisoned which would make Cersei believe Tyrion was the one responsible for poisoning him and not connect the dots to Varys. My guess was that Varys needed time away from Tyrion's escape so that Tywin would die later at a time when it would've been impossible for the dots to connect to Varys.

Varys could've offered Shae a way out though he most likely would've had her killed eventually.

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13 hours ago, SeanBeanedMeUp said:

The most common theory about Tywin's death is that Oberyn had him poisoned. However like many people, I highly doubt that this is the case considering how difficult it would be to fit it in the timeframe from Oberyn's arrival to the capitol till his death. I do believe though that Tywin was poisoned. 

But the person responsible for having it ordered is Varys.

Varys has been working to get fAegon on the throne. And fAegon and his allies have been waiting impatiently to start invading Westeros. Varys knows they can't keep on waiting forever, so he decides to have Tywin poisoned in order to sow chaos in the realm and allow fAegon and the Golden Company to launch their bid for the throne. He uses Shae has a proxy for his plan, having her slip some sort of poison into Tywin's food and/or drink. During this time, Varys also helps Jaime free Tyrion. Varys hopes to use Tyrion as a diversion to make sure the poison plot doesn't get noticed just in case and also use Tyrion as an alibi just in case.

But of course things don't go exactly as planned. Tyrion kills both Shae and Tywin coincidentally. But thankfully for Varys it does do the job in getting rid of Tywin and using Tyrion as an alibi although in the end Varys himself has no choice to go undercover in order to not be caught by the Iron Throne.

Thoughts on this theory?

From Varys' perspective, I think it would have been much better to let Tywin march off to war and defeat Stannis before killing him. With him gone from the capital and Jaime and Cersei nominally in charge, there are all kinds of ways to sow discord within House Lannister, and between Lannister and Tyrell. And with the royal army marching north, the way is clear for fAegon to take the capital.

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3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

From Varys' perspective, I think it would have been much better to let Tywin march off to war and defeat Stannis before killing him. With him gone from the capital and Jaime and Cersei nominally in charge, there are all kinds of ways to sow discord within House Lannister, and between Lannister and Tyrell. And with the royal army marching north, the way is clear for fAegon to take the capital.

Letting Stannis live to be a menace to the Iron Throne is also another possibility especially if it continues to sow discord across the realm. 

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The foul odor during his funeral can be blamed on the stifling lack of circulation and the puncture of the gut by Tyrion's arrow.  What purpose would it serve the plot if Tywin was being poisoned and on his way out anyway?  Less guilt for Tyrion?  Can it ever be proven to the satisfaction of the people to make Tyrion look good?

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On 4/13/2022 at 9:01 PM, SeanBeanedMeUp said:

The most common theory about Tywin's death is that Oberyn had him poisoned. However like many people, I highly doubt that this is the case considering how difficult it would be to fit it in the timeframe from Oberyn's arrival to the capitol till his death. I do believe though that Tywin was poisoned. 

But the person responsible for having it ordered is Varys.

Varys has been working to get fAegon on the throne. And fAegon and his allies have been waiting impatiently to start invading Westeros. Varys knows they can't keep on waiting forever, so he decides to have Tywin poisoned in order to sow chaos in the realm and allow fAegon and the Golden Company to launch their bid for the throne. He uses Shae has a proxy for his plan, having her slip some sort of poison into Tywin's food and/or drink. During this time, Varys also helps Jaime free Tyrion. Varys hopes to use Tyrion as a diversion to make sure the poison plot doesn't get noticed just in case and also use Tyrion as an alibi just in case.

But of course things don't go exactly as planned. Tyrion kills both Shae and Tywin coincidentally. But thankfully for Varys it does do the job in getting rid of Tywin and using Tyrion as an alibi although in the end Varys himself has no choice to go undercover in order to not be caught by the Iron Throne.

Thoughts on this theory?

It is possible Tywin was poisoned and that it was Varys. But I think it's more likely that Varys was planning to blame the Martells for the poisoning if he did indeed poison Tywin. He didn't anticipate Jaime forcing him to free Tyrion and that was where things didn't go according to plan and he had to go into hiding.

Edited by Apoplexy
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On 4/16/2022 at 9:57 AM, Apoplexy said:

It is possible Tywin was poisoned and that it was Varys. But I think it's more likely that Varys was planning to blame the Martells for the poisoning if he did indeed poison Tywin. He didn't anticipate Jaime forcing him to free Tyrion and that was where things didn't go according to plan and he had to go into hiding.

That's what I had in mind too. Tyrion being freed and killing Tywin earlier than Varys planned forced Varys to hightail it. I wouldn't be surprised if Varys has plans to get back at Tyrion for this.

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Poison is a woman's weapon.  Varys is effeminate. But that saying was not applicable to Oberyn.  He is the most famous of the poisoners.  I would put my suspicions on Oberyn first.  Tywin's goon got him before he could finish the job of killing Tywin. 

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7 minutes ago, Rosetta Stone said:

Poison is a woman's weapon.

Poison is scary. It's hard to defend against. You can't see who's doing it. The effects can be gruesome. So, how do people try to discourage others from using it? Belittle it and make it seem cowardly. "Real men face their enemies. Real men use their fighting skills. Only a weak woman would use poison." I always roll my eyes when some character pontificates about poison being a woman's weapon as if it were some wise and insightful observation.

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The Wiki says that the tears of Lys poison causes problems for the stomach and bowls. Tywin was on the toilet when he died, though this alone isn't really enough evidence. If this was the poison used, then it could be responsible for the bad smell at his funeral. Varys would probably be able to access this poison most easily given that it's made in Lys and he has connections across the narrow sea. If not Varys then Oberyn is a likely suspect. Both Varys and Oberon benefit the most from Tywin's death.

However, as others have said the bad smell at the funeral could have nothing to do with poisoning. The body may have been prepared incorrectly or someone could have deliberately sabotaged it to humiliate the Lannisters. It could also just be some karmic retribution after all the bad things Tywin has done in his life.

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While Tywin’s corpse smelling so foul might indicate poison, it might also just be another GRRM nod to RL history, as William the Conqueror’s corpse (and possibly Henry VIII’s) famously stank and possibly exploded. 

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I seem to recall an earlier thread on this subject.  At that time, someone wrote that GRRM had answered this question, saying No, Tywin was't poisoned.  The stinking corpse was in the story for some other reason, not as a clue to the cause of his death..

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IMO Tywin was mildly poisoned by widow's blood decades ago. It has left him chronically constipated. That's how Tyrion knew to find him on the toilet.

Thus the joke began...

Why does Tywin spend so long in the bathroom?

Where do you think all his gold comes from? He has to shit it out.

Alas - "Lord Tywin Lannister did not, in the end, shit gold."

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