The extinction of dragons

[jhbandeira]

After the dance we all know that there are four dragons left and of one them, Morning is the last one under Targaryen possession since it hatched in the end of the Dance of Dragons. For what we know in Fire and Blood it was a healthy dragon and my point is, how they didn’t hatched more eggs especially if they had a healthy dragon that could be the source of fire and magic to the eggs. It doesn’t make sense to me that after thousand of years of dragons existence they simply stopped hatching.

[Lord Varys]

One can speculate that the maesters may have started to mess with the dragon eggs starting during the late-Dance and early Regency era.

We do have the first such suspicious incident when Aegon II wants a new dragon shortly before his death and the new maester of Dragonstone (the successor of the unfortunate Gerardys) is the one who chooses 'the most promising eggs' which are sent to the king in KL where he is trying to hatch them.

That maester could have done something to the eggs to ensure they wouldn't hatch.

[The hairy bear]

On 4/16/2022 at 7:29 AM, jhbandeira said:

how they didn’t hatched more eggs especially if they had a healthy dragon that could be the source of fire and magic to the eggs.

But you'd need two dragons to produce offspring. While we shouldn't dismiss the idea of foul play regarding the extinction of dragons, it's also true that there's the possibility that Morning didn't had a chance to find another dragon to reproduce with.

Sheepstealer had disappeared, Silverwing was female, and Cannibal would sooner eat you than mate with you. Besides that, both Silverwing and specially Cannibal would be very old dragons. Perhaps past their breeding age. So it's possible that the deformed and infertile last dragons were the product of either oldish low-quality sperm, or perhaps asexual reproduction (some reptiles can hatch eggs without a partner, but the offspring is not as robust).

The potential additional young dragon that Alys Rivers may have at Harrenhal also wouldn't have the chance to mate with Morning, since they would likely be in opposing sides.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

But you'd need two dragons to produce offspring. While we shouldn't dismiss the idea of foul play regarding the extinction of dragons, it's also true that there's the possibility that Morning didn't had a chance to find another dragon to reproduce with.

Sheepstealer had disappeared, Silverwing was female, and Cannibal would sooner eat you than mate with you. Besides that, both Silverwing and specially Cannibal would be very old dragons. Perhaps past their breeding age. So it's possible that the deformed and infertile last dragons were the product of either oldish low-quality sperm, or perhaps asexual reproduction (some reptiles can hatch eggs without a partner, but the offspring is not as robust).

The potential additional young dragon that Alys Rivers may have at Harrenhal also wouldn't have the chance to mate with Morning, since they would likely be in opposing sides.

While that is in an interesting issue, we do know that even the last dragon had a chance to produce dragon eggs, indicating that sexual dragon reproduction still sort of worked even this late. My personal guess is that the last two dragons will turn out to be Morning's offspring.

The eggs the Targaryens still have during the Regency still do hatch when put in a cradle (e.g. the egg in the cradle of the second Laena Velaryon producing a dragon monstrosity). My guess would be that the egg of the unfortunate Laena was one of the fresher ones, as we have learned that the eggs only slowly turn to stone, especially when removed from a hot place like Dragonstone. One imagines that the Targaryens still had quite a lot viable dragon eggs during the reign of Aegon III. This changed only in later years.

If the maesters had something to do with the end of the dragons then they likely messed around with the eggs - which would have been rather easy while no Targaryen was permanently based on Dragonstone (Rhaena moves there at the end of FaB, but we don't know how long she is going to live there or if she will remain there after she marries Garmund Hightower). The last two dragons may turn out to be crippled because somebody messed around with their eggs but failed to make them completely unviable.

[EggBlue]

On 4/19/2022 at 8:52 PM, Lord Varys said:

One can speculate that the maesters may have started to mess with the dragon eggs starting during the late-Dance and early Regency era.

We do have the first such suspicious incident when Aegon II wants a new dragon shortly before his death and the new maester of Dragonstone (the successor of the unfortunate Gerardys) is the one who chooses 'the most promising eggs' which are sent to the king in KL where he is trying to hatch them.

That maester could have done something to the eggs to ensure they wouldn't hatch.

while this is one of the more plausible ideas , it doesn't explain why Viserys II 's egg never hatched or why Rhaena's egg took so long to hatch .

according to FnB the tradition of putting eggs in cradles started when first Rhaena put dragon eggs in her siblings' cradles ; then we are only told of Rhaena II and Viserys II 's bad fortune with eggs (I'm not getting into the bug in dragon count though), indicating that Targaryen eggs mysteriously stopped hatching several years before Dance and when Rhaenyra lived in Dragonstone with her own loyal maester . so, whatever the reason is , it shouldn't be related to maester conspiracy ,unless Rhaneyra's maester wasn't the loyal guy he sure seemed to be.

my guess is that the egg problem has something to do with Targaryens themselves. I suggest the problem started even before Viserys I 's reign. in fact, the issue first affected little princess Daenerys who was the first Targaryen dying of a fever .  it may simply be that Targaryen magic was slowly dying after the doom of Valyria . or maybe Targaryens , like Starks, had forgotten their own share of magical history . 

[Lord Varys]

48 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

while this is one of the more plausible ideas , it doesn't explain why Viserys II 's egg never hatched or why Rhaena's egg took so long to hatch .

It didn't seem to take Rhaena's egg that long to hatch, considering she was given her egg - and the others she took with her to the Vale - only shortly before the Dance began.

Viserys' egg is certainly an oddity, but we shouldn't expect that all the dragon eggs ever hatched. This seems to have never happened since the Targaryens do have eggs aplenty during the Dance.

48 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

according to FnB the tradition of putting eggs in cradles started when first Rhaena put dragon eggs in her siblings' cradles ; then we are only told of Rhaena II and Viserys II 's bad fortune with eggs (I'm not getting into the bug in dragon count though), indicating that Targaryen eggs mysteriously stopped hatching several years before Dance and when Rhaenyra lived in Dragonstone with her own loyal maester . so, whatever the reason is , it shouldn't be related to maester conspiracy ,unless Rhaneyra's maester wasn't the loyal guy he sure seemed to be.

The Rhaena story seems to be just a legend, since Jaehaerys & Alysanne didn't put (m)any eggs in the cradles of their children, nor did Rhaenys, Viserys, and Daemon ever bond with their non-existing cradle dragons.

Viserys and Rhaena seem to be cases where an egg either didn't hatch or the hatchling didn't survive - but they seem to be exceptions from the rule compared to all the other dragonriding Targaryen children.

48 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

my guess is that the egg problem has something to do with Targaryens themselves. I suggest the problem started even before Viserys I 's reign. in fact, the issue first affected little princess Daenerys who was the first Targaryen dying of a fever .  it may simply be that Targaryen magic was slowly dying after the doom of Valyria . or maybe Targaryens , like Starks, had forgotten their own share of magical history . 

The Targaryens don't seem to be that connected to the issue - up until the cradle eggs became a thing they only gave hatchlings to their children to bond with, meaning that those eggs seem to have hatched 'naturally', i.e. in the nest the dragon mother made, and not in the presence of their future riders.

But since the Dance greatly reduced the number of the living dragons - and those who survived where spread out across Westeros (even on Dragonstone there were only two once Morning moved there with Rhaena) - this certainly could have had an effect on the viability of the dragon eggs.

[EggBlue]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

It didn't seem to take Rhaena's egg that long to hatch, considering she was given her egg - and the others she took with her to the Vale - only shortly before the Dance began.

compared to Baella who must have received her egg at the same time it did. Baella had started riding Moondancer when Morning had barely hatched. 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Viserys' egg is certainly an oddity, but we shouldn't expect that all the dragon eggs ever hatched. This seems to have never happened since the Targaryens do have eggs aplenty during the Dance.

forget about logics in this case Lord Varys. these are dragon eggs not chicken eggs . one thing is made clear in the books : whenever an egg was put near a Targling a hatchling came about , so, we shouldn't expect dragon eggs not hatch from time to time . we should be suspicious .

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The Rhaena story seems to be just a legend, since Jaehaerys & Alysanne didn't put (m)any eggs in the cradles of their children, nor did Rhaenys, Viserys, and Daemon ever bond with their non-existing cradle dragons.

Viserys and Rhaena seem to be cases where an egg either didn't hatch or the hatchling didn't survive - but they seem to be exceptions from the rule compared to all the other dragonriding Targaryen children.

we don't really know if Alysanne and Jaeherys put eggs in their kids or not . but the fact that Rhaenys , Viserys and Daemon went for older bigger dragons doesn't rule out that they had hatchlings of their own that might have later been eaten by Cannibal or else George had forgotten about counting them . Maegor didn't go near any dragons till his twenties just to ride Ballerion later . Aemond ( who must have had a hatchling since otherwise Greens wouldn't have seen Viserys's egg situation as bad omen ) decided he should have Vaegar because she was the most terrifying dragon available. why shouldn't Rhaenys , Viserys and Daemon be any different? 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The Targaryens don't seem to be that connected to the issue - up until the cradle eggs became a thing they only gave hatchlings to their children to bond with, meaning that those eggs seem to have hatched 'naturally', i.e. in the nest the dragon mother made, and not in the presence of their future riders.

But since the Dance greatly reduced the number of the living dragons - and those who survived where spread out across Westeros (even on Dragonstone there were only two once Morning moved there with Rhaena) - this certainly could have had an effect on the viability of the dragon eggs.

well , this does work logically .. but since it's a fantasy story about a family with blood of dragon who are born as half dragons when are malformed and are born with a devine beauty and immunity to diseases , I tend to think their dragons' dead must have something to do with them ; especially that a generation or two before that, they started declining to normal humans , catching fever and such! 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

compared to Baella who must have received her egg at the same time it did. Baella had started riding Moondancer when Morning had barely hatched. 

Rhaena also got an egg when Baela got hers ... but Rhaena's original dragon was a broken hatchling who died shortly after it hatched. Rhaena then later got another egg when Syrax produced another clutch and that's the egg Morning hatched from.

And that egg she only got years after Moondancer had hatched.

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

forget about logics in this case Lord Varys. these are dragon eggs not chicken eggs . one thing is made clear in the books : whenever an egg was put near a Targling a hatchling came about , so, we shouldn't expect dragon eggs not hatch from time to time . we should be suspicious .

You certainly can be suspicious ... but as I said, the Targaryens did have dozens of eggs in the Dance era, eggs which, for whatever reason, didn't hatch. And they were all *around* the Targaryens during the years when Rhaenyra and her family lived on Dragonstone.

You don't have to believe that Viserys II's egg was messed with. It could just have been bad luck that his egg was the one in a hundred or so which wasn't viable.

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

we don't really know if Alysanne and Jaeherys put eggs in their kids or not.

It is confirmed for Princess Daenerys, their eldest daughter, and implied for all the others save Aemon. Who supposedly got a dragon egg in his cradle but we don't learn anything about it ever hatching.

All three dragonriding children of Jaehaerys and Alysanne have to go to the Dragonpit to choose their dragons. They haven't bonded earlier with any cradle egg dragons. And if they had had cradle egg dragons then Saera wouldn't have been forced to try to sneak inside the Dragonpit to mount a dragon - she would already have bonded with one. Maegelle and Vaegon would have had dragons, too, when the decision was made to give them to the Faith and the Citadel, respectively. Daella would have never been afraid of dragons if she had bonded with her cradle egg dragon as a toddler, etc.

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

but the fact that Rhaenys , Viserys and Daemon went for older bigger dragons doesn't rule out that they had hatchlings of their own that might have later been eaten by Cannibal or else George had forgotten about counting them.

Chances are very low that such dragons would have been eaten by the Cannibal. He lived on Dragonstone, and Jaehaerys' grandchildren grew up in the Red Keep. If they had had cradle egg dragons at first they would have been with them in the castle or the Dragonpit, not on Dragonstone.

Instead, George originally seemed to want to have Rhaena invent the cradle tradition and he wanted Jaehaerys and Alysanne to continue it - that's why Aemon got a dragon egg. But when he decided who among Jaehaerys' children would be a dragonrider he couldn't possibly go with all nine children having dragon eggs. That would mean too many new dragons.

I think he certainly could have invented 1-2 more dragons who may have died of this or that cause during the later reign of Jaehaerys I and the reign of Viserys I ... but not that many. Of the known dragons, only Meleys and Caraxes could be dragons who were inherited by the grandchildren of Jaehaerys I.

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

Maegor didn't go near any dragons till his twenties just to ride Ballerion later . Aemond ( who must have had a hatchling since otherwise Greens wouldn't have seen Viserys's egg situation as bad omen ) decided he should have Vaegar because she was the most terrifying dragon available. why shouldn't Rhaenys , Viserys and Daemon be any different?

It seems to me that Daeron was actually the first of the children of Alicent who got a cradle egg. Aegon II's Sunfyre hatched on Dragonstone and was thus likely already hatchling when he was given to Aegon. Alicent may have pushed for that because Sunfyre was the most beautiful dragon around. Helaena then claimed old Dreamfyre, indicating that she, too, didn't have a cradle egg dragon. Aemond clearly hadn't gotten either a dragon egg nor a hatchling up until he claimed Vhagar ... and his father even said that he wouldn't get a dragon via a cradle egg but rather by ways of the court going to Dragonstone after the funeral so Aemond could mount one of the dragons there.

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

well , this does work logically .. but since it's a fantasy story about a family with blood of dragon who are born as half dragons when are malformed and are born with a devine beauty and immunity to diseases , I tend to think their dragons' dead must have something to do with them ; especially that a generation or two before that, they started declining to normal humans , catching fever and such! 

I think the Shivers wasn't exactly a mundane disease, so Daenerys dying of that just proves that Targaryens are not immune to all diseases, just that they can better cope with certain infectious diseases than other people.