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What will bring Daenerys to Westeros?


Groo
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After 5 books, Daenerys is still in Essos. In fact, geographically, she’s even further from Westeros than when she started. It’s more than just geography, however. Daenerys has committed herself to a cause, ending slavery, that has everything to do with Essos and nothing to do with Westeros. Her campaign in Slaver’s Bay has profound implications for the politics and economy of Essos but not for Westeros. She’s picked up a handful of Westerosi but her people have been Dothraki, Unsullied, Meereenese, and freed slaves. It doesn’t seem like anything internal to her story would actually push her to Westeros and that something from outside will need to finally pull her there.


One possibility would be finding out about the Others and receiving a plea to save the Seven Kingdoms. While structurally that could work, it would have some problems, apart from it feeling like a warmed-over version of Stannis going to the Wall. With Stannis, Davos was implicitly appealing to his strong sense of duty and giving him a useful alternative to just brooding at Dragonstone. Daenerys, on the other hand, would probably feel like it was a painful choice between saving the people of Westeros, whom she’s never actually known, and protecting the freed slaves she’s made herself responsible for. It isn’t a foregone conclusion that she would abandon her existing subjects for Westeros.


Another possibility would be if someone stole one of her dragons and took it to Westeros. The Mother of Dragons likely wouldn’t want to abandon one of her children. Her advisors would certainly be telling her that she can’t afford to have someone stealing the source of her power. Of course, at this point we’ve already seen how difficult it would be to actually take one of the dragons.


I think a more promising possibility would be for Aegon to be struggling with his campaign when Daenerys finally hears about him. Obviously, she would wonder if he really is her nephew but now she’d have to consider the possibility that she actually has family, family that she could be helping. It would be natural for her to wonder if one of the dragons was meant for Aegon. She’d probably worry about what would happen if he succeeded without her. Would she be forced to fight against family for the throne? Targaryens marry kin. Should she marry him? The list goes on. It would be hard for Daenerys to sit back and ignore all this. It could pull her to Westeros. On a side note, I think Aegon not yet having the throne when Daenerys returns opens up more narrative possibilities than if he’s already crowned.


Other ideas?
 

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It might have already happened at the arena/during her time alone, the whole ‘dragons do not plant trees’ thing. I think it was always either going to take several books for Martin to reasonably align with her personal priorities or it was going to need to be rushed in a kind of snap/last straw way. I don’t mean she’ll pack up as soon as she gets back to Meereen, but I think we’ll find that het mind was more or less made up by this time.

 

edit: especially if Ser Barristan (or one of her blood riders) dies anything like he did on the show. Like a combination of ‘they don’t even want me here/I’m not built for this’ with maybe a bit of ‘Westeros seems to keep coming after me (Greyjoys?) so fuck it, I’ll go after them’.

Edited by James Arryn
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1 hour ago, James Arryn said:

Like a combination of ‘they don’t even want me here/I’m not built for this’ with maybe a bit of ‘Westeros seems to keep coming after me (Greyjoys?) so fuck it, I’ll go after them’.

I could see that. Of course, that would just reenforce that her actions in Essos weren't going to lead to Westeros.

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Dany is the main protagonist in ASOIAF.  If we look at the times when she chose to go into battle, it is to protect or to liberate people.  So it is very safe to assume that when she makes her decision to go to Westeros, it will be because the people will be calling for help. 

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15 minutes ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Dany is the main protagonist in ASOIAF.  

This seems to be taking a firm line on something quite contentious. She’s, what, 4th in POVs? I’m not saying it’s clear you’re wrong, I just don’t see how you think it’s so clear you’re right.

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I think Tyrion and Aegon will influence her decision more than an existential threat by the Others. As much as Dany wants to stay in Essos, she is unlikely to forget her need to 'take back what was stolen from her family'. I don't know where or in what state that leaves Essos in. But I have a feeling the books don't plan for Dany to be a messianic character. Her motive to go head back to Westeros may or not be in service of humanity. It just be things in Essos don't going according to plan and she decides to pursue her supposed claim to the IT.

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Dany's goal is the Iron Throne, and the Iron Throne is in Westeros. She aspires to be a true queen and bring justice back to the Seven Kingdoms, something she feels (from her Targaryen perspective) was stolen from the realm when the Usurper and his dogs stole her father's throne.

In Meereen Dany began to get a taste of the difficulties of being a queen, especially when her noble goals, like ending slavery, conflict with the status quo, who attempt to undermine her at every opportunity. She needs to first solve this problem in Meereen, which she will do in Targaryen fashion with dragonfire and steel, before she proceeds towards her goal.

It's not just a question of ruling Meereen, but rather a question of how to rule in general. Dany, frustrated in her futile efforts to compromise with the Harpies, will now wake the dragon instead and it will yield results, leading to her victory over the slavers. Jorah told her that the only way she would win the Iron Throne is with dragonfire and steel, and she always struggled to accept that fact, but victory over the slavers by those means will convince her that Jorah is right. And with the slavers defeated, she will now be free to apply the lessons she learned to her main goal and proceed towards the Iron Throne.

Dany already has all the motivation she needs to go to Westeros, but she got knotted-up in Meereen and began to question if she had what it takes to accomplish her goal, given that she can't even succeed in Meereen. Once she undoes that knot by severing it with her sword, Drogon, and succeeds against the slavers, it will be on to her goal next.

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44 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

It's not just a question of ruling Meereen, but rather a question of how to rule in general. Dany, frustrated in her futile efforts to compromise with the Harpies, will now wake the dragon instead and it will yield results, leading to her victory over the slavers. Jorah told her that the only way she would win the Iron Throne is with dragonfire and steel, and she always struggled to accept that fact, but victory over the slavers by those means will convince her that Jorah is right. And with the slavers defeated, she will now be free to apply the lessons she learned to her main goal and proceed towards the Iron Throne.

I'm sorry but that is a bit of a contradictory mess. Dany has not had any problem using dragonfire and steel to conquer. She's been highly successful at it. She doesn't want to just conquer, however, she wants to rule and have peace after the conquest. Simply embracing fire and steel doesn't solve the how to rule problem.

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21 hours ago, Groo said:

I'm sorry but that is a bit of a contradictory mess. Dany has not had any problem using dragonfire and steel to conquer. She's been highly successful at it. She doesn't want to just conquer, however, she wants to rule and have peace after the conquest. Simply embracing fire and steel doesn't solve the how to rule problem.

Well you have pointed out Dany's main conflict in your reply. She doesn't want to just conquer, she wants to rule and have peace after the conquest. This is the problem she is facing in Meereen. She conquered the city but she is having trouble maintaining peace under her rule, despite compromising some values, like re-opening the fighting pits, and even marrying Hizdahr.

I did not say Dany had a problem using dragonfire and steel, I said she has struggled to accept that it's the only way. Dany is essentially a good person. She would agree with you that embracing fire and steel does not solve the problem of how to rule. That's why she tried to be a compromising queen in Meereen. However, those efforts left her frustrated.

When Dany first saw Drogo's army pillage and plunder it disturbed her, but she knew war was the price of the Iron Throne and she resolved to pay it. It disturbed her that every Unsullied soldier represented a dead child, but she needed an army. As I said, she is essentially a good person, but her goal is the Iron Throne and to win the Iron Throne you need to do some bad things. Dany often struggles with the conflict between the good things she wants to do and the bad things she needs to do, and often compromises on her values in an attempt to achieve what is needed. She is against war, but if it's the only way she'll win the Iron Throne then she'll accept it. She's against killing babies, but if it's the only way she'll get an army she will accept it. She's against the fighting pits, but if it will help her be accepted by Meereen then she'll accept it.

The problem in Meereen is that she is pitched against the entire status quo, stretching far beyond Meereen, which is firmly rooted in slavery. Dany wants to end slavery. The slavers will never accept that. The only way Dany can rule Meereen is to compromise on her values around slavery, and as such become part of the status quo, or else remove the status quo, root and branch. And the only way to do that is with dragonfire and steel.

Dany is now in the process of waking the dragon. In the pits of Meereen we saw her climb onto the dragon's back and fly. We last saw her eating cooked meat from charred bones with Drogon. When she left Meereen she was a compromising queen who had re-opened the fighting pits, but when she returns she will be a dragonqueen. She will remove the status quo, root and branch, including burning the black-walled heart of Old Volantis, which is the black heart of the slaver industry. This is the second treason for gold, the second fire for death, delivered from the second mount for dread, Drogon.

One of the consequences of this victory over the slavers by way of fire and steel is that it will convince Dany that it is the best way forward. It will have yielded results where compromise did not. I'm not saying fire and steel is the solution, just that Dany will be led to believe it is. As such, the harpy will have been replaced by a dragon, as foreshadowed by Drogon making his nest atop the Great Pyramid, where once a golden harpy stood.

It's not my argument that is a contradictory mess, but rather Dany. However, we should expect that. Every time a Targaryen is born the gods toss a coin and the world holds its breath. Madness and greatness are the two sides of that coin. Dany's coin is turning in midair right now, and the dragonqueen side is starting to come to the fore, but her coin has not landed yet. It will continue to turn for now, and she still has one more mount, treason and fire to come.

Each mount, treason and fire marks a significant plot-point in Dany's story, and therefore each one represents a decision of hers that will change the trajectory of her plot-line. Right now Dany is waking the dragon, and the madness side of the coin is becoming prominent, but there's one more turn to come before it lands. So I'm betting on greatness.

Edited by three-eyed monkey
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59 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Well you have pointed out Dany's main conflict in your reply. She doesn't want to just conquer, she wants to rule and have peace after the conquest. This is the problem she is facing in Meereen. She conquered the city but she is having trouble maintaining peace under her rule, despite compromising some values, like re-opening the fighting pits, and even marrying Hizdahr.

I did not say Dany had a problem using dragonfire and steel, I said she has struggled to accept that it's the only way. Dany is essentially a good person. She would agree with you that embracing fire and steel does not solve the problem of how to rule. That's why she tried to be a compromising queen in Meereen. However, those efforts left her frustrated.

When Dany first saw Drogo's army pillage and plunder it disturbed her, but she knew war was the price of the Iron Throne and she resolved to pay it. It disturbed her that every Unsullied soldier represented a dead child, but she needed an army. As I said, she is essentially a good person, but her goal is the Iron Throne and to win the Iron Throne you need to do some bad things. Dany often struggles with the conflict between the good things she wants to do and the bad things she needs to do, and often compromises on her values in an attempt to achieve what is needed. She is against war, but if it's the only way she'll win the war then she'll accept it. She's against killing babies, but if it's the only way she'll get an army she will accept it. She's against the fighting pits, but if it will help her be accepted by Meereen then she'll accept it.

The problem in Meereen is that she is pitched against the entire status quo, stretching far beyond Meereen, which is firmly rooted in slavery. Dany wants to end slavery. The slavers will never accept that. The only way Dany can rule Meereen is to compromise on her values around slavery, and as such become part of the status quo, or else remove the status quo, root and branch. And the only way to do that is with dragonfire and steel.

Dany is now in the process of waking the dragon. In the pits of Meereen we saw her climb onto the dragon's back and fly. We last saw her eating cooked meat from charred bones with Drogon. When she left Meereen she was a compromising queen who had re-opened the fighting pits, but when she returns she will be a dragonqueen. She will remove the status quo, root and branch, including burning the black-walled heart of Old Volantis, which is the black heart of the slaver industry. This is the second treason for gold, the second fire for death, delivered from the second mount for dread, Drogon.

One of the consequences of this victory over the slavers by way of fire and steel is that it will convince Dany that it is the best way forward. It will have yielded results where compromise did not. I'm not saying fire and steel is the solution, just that Dany will be led to believe it is. As such, the harpy will have been replaced by a dragon, as foreshadowed by Drogon making his nest atop the Great Pyramid, where once a golden harpy stood.

It's not my argument that is a contradictory mess, but rather Dany. However, we should expect that. Every time a Targaryen is born the gods toss a coin and the world holds its breath. Madness and greatness are the two sides of that coin. Dany's coin is turning in midair right now, and the dragonqueen side is starting to come to the fore, but her coin has not landed yet. It will continue to turn for now, and she still has one more mount, treason and fire to come.

Each mount, treason and fire marks a significant plot-point in Dany's story, and therefore each one represents a decision of hers that will change the trajectory of her plot-line. Right now Dany is waking the dragon, and the madness side of the coin is becoming prominent, but there's one more turn to come before it lands. So I'm betting on greatness.

I think that a big part of Dany’s arc in ADWD  is a debate over whether a bad peace is preferable to a just war.  Adam Feldman’s view is that peace is always preferable to war. My view is that it’s past time Dany took the gloves off.

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I think the main thing that will take her to Westeros is when she receives word of the Others and Euron Greyjoy and the threats that they posed.

I don't really think that she really cares about the Iron Throne anymore. I don't think she ever did. She only cared about her family's legacy and finding a home for herself and what loved ones she had left. She was raised believing that it was in the Seven Kingdoms by way of the Iron Throne. But she doesn't believe that anymore.

I think she will be generally supportive of Aegon until/unless she finds out he is a puppet-pretender for selfish and wicked politicians who also happen to enslave children.

If her whole life's work is to destroy the institution of slavery, she can't do that without destroying it everywhere. She can eradicate it from the continent of Essos but if the people in Westeros are not only incentivized to encourage slavery but also have the means to continue or start a whole new slave trade...then she has to go to Westeros and stomp it out.

I also think Tyrion will manipulate her, making any sort of peaceful compromise between Team Dany and Team Aegon impossible.

 

Speaking of slavery, I think the Others control the dead in a way that evokes strong similarities to slavery. I don't think Team Dany is going to miss this.

 

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2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I think the main thing that will take her to Westeros is when she receives word of the Others and Euron Greyjoy and the threats that they posed.

What do you think will be different about Euron's actions compared to anyone else in Westeros? Won't he look a usurper to Dany, just like all the other usurpers?

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1 hour ago, BlackLightning said:

I think the main thing that will take her to Westeros is when she receives word of the Others and Euron Greyjoy and the threats that they posed.

I don't really think that she really cares about the Iron Throne anymore. I don't think she ever did. She only cared about her family's legacy and finding a home for herself and what loved ones she had left. She was raised believing that it was in the Seven Kingdoms by way of the Iron Throne. But she doesn't believe that anymore.

I think this is a misunderstanding of Dany's character journey. The fact that she was forced into exile by the Usurper and his dogs when they murdered her father and stole his throne is her wound. The Iron Throne is her goal, winning it back and returning justice to the realm, as she sees it, is what's required to heal her wound. Dany has had several opportunities to abandon her goal, but always chose not to.

Quote

If I were not the blood of the dragon, she thought wistfully, this could be my home. She was khaleesi, she had a strong man and a swift horse, handmaids to serve her, warriors to keep her safe, an honored place in the dosh khaleen awaiting her when she grew old … and in her womb grew a son who would one day bestride the world. That should be enough for any woman … but not for the dragon. With Viserys gone, Daenerys was the last, the very last. She was the seed of kings and conquerors, and so too the child inside her. She must not forget.

It's not just about finding a home for herself because she is the blood of the dragon, the last dragon as far as she knows, and therefore she is determined to continue the legacy of her house. She could have spent her days in luxury and sailed the Jade Sea with Xaro, but she kept her dragons and stuck to her goal. It was her goal in AGoT and remains her goal in ADwD.

Quote

Without dragons, how could she hope to hold Meereen, much less win back Westeros?

She's stuck in Meereen and needs to make some hard choices to progress, but the Iron Throne remains her goal.

2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I think she will be generally supportive of Aegon until/unless she finds out he is a puppet-pretender for selfish and wicked politicians who also happen to enslave children.

Aegon has the same goal as Dany, and I get the impression that dragons, be they red or black, are not good at sharing.

1 hour ago, Groo said:

What do you think will be different about Euron's actions compared to anyone else in Westeros? Won't he look a usurper to Dany, just like all the other usurpers?

I think there will be one difference between Euron and the other claimants, and that will be physical attraction. He's quite similar to Daario, so much so that it gave rise to theories that Euron was Daario. I should think he is Dany's type, and there are strong hints of their union in The Forsaken chapter. But Euron has no real interest in Dany, he only sees her as a stepping stone towards his own goal and certainly plans on betraying her, so it makes sense to me that he would be her final treason.

 

 

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Westeros belongs to Daenerys Targaryen as much, if not more so, than that Winterfell belongs to the Starks. She has the right to claim and take Westeros, if she chooses to do so.  
 

What will bring her to Westeros? The Others. The nobles back home (Starks, Baratheons, Lannisters, and Greyjoys) are woefully inadequate at ruling a kingdom. Joffrey, Robb, Cersei, Robert, and Jon Snow have all failed the people. I suspect Stannis and Aegon will also fail. Daenerys will not fail. I don’t expect the road to the iron throne will be easy. She will first need to expose and call out the three lies. It will happen. 

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6 hours ago, Groo said:

What do you think will be different about Euron's actions compared to anyone else in Westeros? Won't he look a usurper to Dany, just like all the other usurpers?

Besides the fact that she will have Victarion and Moqorro in her ear?

I think she'll view Euron differently for the fact that he uses slaves and that he is a practitioner of blood magic. Dany just so happens to detest those things.

Also, more importantly Euron is specifically targeting her. Dany might be attracted to him on a purely physical level (I don't think she will) but she's going to figure out that any relationship with Euron will be the end of her life as she knows it.

4 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

so it makes sense to me that he would be her final treason.

From my understanding, Dany is her own final treason. I think that somehow she will betray herself for love.

4 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

I think this is a misunderstanding of Dany's character journey. The fact that she was forced into exile by the Usurper and his dogs when they murdered her father and stole his throne is her wound. The Iron Throne is her goal, winning it back and returning justice to the realm, as she sees it, is what's required to heal her wound. Dany has had several opportunities to abandon her goal, but always chose not to.

I think you misunderstand her character journey.

She hasn't been focused or overly concerned with the Iron Throne since the very beginning of A Storm of Swords (arguably the middle of A Clash of Kings)

If she goes back to Westeros, her primary focus will be the welfare of the people and those that would threaten it...not the Iron Throne itself.

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7 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

From my understanding, Dany is her own final treason. I think that somehow she will betray herself for love.

I agree that this will be Dany's resolution to her arc. She will sacrifice herself and her goal, the Iron Throne, for her people to survive the Long Night. A queen belongs not to herself but to her people. And for the people of Westeros to be her people, she needs to be their queen.

But let me explain how I think Euron fits into this.

First of all, Dany needs to fall in love again. She yearns for love, like the one she had with Drogo. The theme of love versus duty is also present, with Daario and Hizdahr. To find love is one of the things she wants, but a queen is not always free to choose who she marries as there is a strong political element to such marriages. I think there's an inherent question here as to who in Westeros will Dany marry when she gets there and will it be the right choice? Can she find a suitable king or consort and find love again at the same time? Jon is the obvious red herring to this question. I think it will be Euron. She has a vulnerability around the Daario type, but it will be a bad choice and in many ways a betrayal of herself.

We should remember that Euron is working towards this ends too so we should expect their stories to connect somewhere along the line. I suggest that in the HotU, the handsome man who offered to teach her the secret speech of dragonkind was a reference to Euron and the horn. We know Euron is not doing it for love, he only plans on using Dany to further his own end, so if he exploits her vulnerabilities and gains her trust, he will betray her in the end.

The next thing is Mirri's riddle about Dany's womb quickening again. In short, I don't believe the answer to that riddle is never. I believe Dany will get pregnant again.

So ultimately when the time comes for Dany to sacrifice herself to save the realm, the decision will be far more difficult and far more powerful in terms of storytelling, as I think she will know that she is pregnant, with Euron the father, when she does it. I imagine that the betrayal by Euron will cut quite deep and will help push her towards her final decision.

9 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I think you misunderstand her character journey.

She hasn't been focused or overly concerned with the Iron Throne since the very beginning of A Storm of Swords (arguably the middle of A Clash of Kings)

If she goes back to Westeros, her primary focus will be the welfare of the people and those that would threaten it...not the Iron Throne itself.

The Iron Throne is her goal, established early in her arc. She's stuck in Meereen, learning some lessons. We should expect heroes to face trials and tests on the way to their goals. She may question her ability to attain her goal, but she never gives up on her goal or changes it for another.

Everything Dany has done all the way to Meereen has been about returning to Westeros to retake her father's throne. The only reason she hasn't been focused on the Iron Throne recently is because she is stuck in Meereen, learning some lessons about being a queen and trying to determine who she is. These are obstacles she needs to focus on and overcome before she can proceed towards her goal again. In fact, her emergence from Meereen as a dragonqueen will only sharpen her focus on her goal, the throne of Aegon the Conqueror.

I can see where you're coming from, in terms of Dany learning to put her people ahead of the Throne, this is central to her inner-conflict and will be resolved. However, I don't think she'll resolve her arc in Essos and then return to Westeros but rather the other way around. She'll return to Westeros and attain her goal before she resolves her arc. To sacrifice her throne for her people, she must first posses the throne.  And it only makes sense that the resolution of Dany's arc would be at the climax of the story, not before it.

Dany has another mount to come, and you can mount a throne, so I believe her third mount will be the Iron Throne, although I can see the argument for Euron, naturally.

 

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Many, many chapters, that's what it will take. Meereen is a complete mess and I have no idea how many chapters of the next book it's going to take to set matters right. I honestly don't think Dany is leaving for Westeros until the very end of the next book.

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1 hour ago, sifth said:

Many, many chapters, that's what it will take. Meereen is a complete mess and I have no idea how many chapters of the next book it's going to take to set matters right. I honestly don't think Dany is leaving for Westeros until the very end of the next book.

My guess is that the Shavepate, Tyrion, Grey Worm will deal permanently and brutally with the slaver class, in Dany’s absence.

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2 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

I agree that this will be Dany's resolution to her arc. She will sacrifice herself and her goal, the Iron Throne, for her people to survive the Long Night. A queen belongs not to herself but to her people. And for the people of Westeros to be her people, she needs to be their queen.

But let me explain how I think Euron fits into this.

First of all, Dany needs to fall in love again. She yearns for love, like the one she had with Drogo. The theme of love versus duty is also present, with Daario and Hizdahr. To find love is one of the things she wants, but a queen is not always free to choose who she marries as there is a strong political element to such marriages. I think there's an inherent question here as to who in Westeros will Dany marry when she gets there and will it be the right choice? Can she find a suitable king or consort and find love again at the same time? Jon is the obvious red herring to this question. I think it will be Euron. She has a vulnerability around the Daario type, but it will be a bad choice and in many ways a betrayal of herself.

We should remember that Euron is working towards this ends too so we should expect their stories to connect somewhere along the line. I suggest that in the HotU, the handsome man who offered to teach her the secret speech of dragonkind was a reference to Euron and the horn. We know Euron is not doing it for love, he only plans on using Dany to further his own end, so if he exploits her vulnerabilities and gains her trust, he will betray her in the end.

The next thing is Mirri's riddle about Dany's womb quickening again. In short, I don't believe the answer to that riddle is never. I believe Dany will get pregnant again.

So ultimately when the time comes for Dany to sacrifice herself to save the realm, the decision will be far more difficult and far more powerful in terms of storytelling, as I think she will know that she is pregnant, with Euron the father, when she does it. I imagine that the betrayal by Euron will cut quite deep and will help push her towards her final decision.

I disagree about the Euron thing.

Simply for the fact that Victarion is more than likely going to marry her instead. Dany not only needs an armada in order to return to Westeros, she needs an admiral. Victarion is an highborn admiral who can give her ships and men and wealth and valuable intel. Plus, he's right there in front of her whereas Euron is still thousands of miles away.

Victarion is also Dany's type too.

In the end, I think the one that she will really fall head over heels in love with will be Jon. Her visions in the House of the Undying about the three mounts she will ride points to three men: a stallion in a sea of grass under the moon and the stars (Drogo), a sickly man standing on the prow of a ship smiling sadly (Victarion) and a blue rose growing out of a crack in a wall of ice (Jon)

Drogo is the mount to bed, Victarion is the mount to dread (aka war) and Jon is the mount for love.

 

I fully believe that their stories will connect. But as bitter enemies not as an item.

Euron intends to take Dany for himself but I think that he will end up with Cersei for a couple different reasons. One because the Lannisters are filthy rich and two because Theon's reappearance is going to make his plans go sideways.

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