What will bring Daenerys to Westeros?

[Moiraine Sedai]

She is into rescuing people. The only thing that can pull her away from the work in Essos is a threat to humanity as a whole.  The long night is that existential threat.  

[three-eyed monkey]

6 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I disagree about the Euron thing.

Simply for the fact that Victarion is more than likely going to marry her instead. Dany not only needs an armada in order to return to Westeros, she needs an admiral. Victarion is an highborn admiral who can give her ships and men and wealth and valuable intel. Plus, he's right there in front of her whereas Euron is still thousands of miles away.

Victarion is also Dany's type too.

There will be something with Victarion, he certainly plans to marry Dany instead of his brother, but we'll have to see if he can pull it off and if he survives. Personally, I think Victarion is filling a role that was meant for Euron, had there been a 5-year gap. As such, when Dany returns to Westeros and encounters Euron there will be little need for Victarion.

6 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

In the end, I think the one that she will really fall head over heels in love with will be Jon.

I think we're all meant to think that.

Personally, I think Jon is dead. He'll spend a lot of Winds in ghost before returning to take his body, or should I say corpse, back from the Others. Jon's going to look like Coldhands, and I don't think that's Dany's type.

Some people believe Jon is dead and Mel will bring him back. If so he'll be like undead Beric. Is Dany really that freaky?

Alternatively Jon is not dead, just wounded, but in a story where it is established that people can return from the dead that would seem a bit weak.

6 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Her visions in the House of the Undying about the three mounts she will ride points to three men: a stallion in a sea of grass under the moon and the stars (Drogo), a sickly man standing on the prow of a ship smiling sadly (Victarion) and a blue rose growing out of a crack in a wall of ice (Jon)

Drogo is the mount to bed, Victarion is the mount to dread (aka war) and Jon is the mount for love.

I think the first mount is her mare, Silver, she rode to her wedding with Drogo. Then there was Mirri's first treason, followed by Drogo's funeral pyre, which was the first fire. This was Dany's first plot-point, where the mother of dragons emerged.

The second mount to dread is Drogon, likened to Balerion the Black Dread. The second treason for gold is being committed by those who profit most from the slave trade, whom I earlier referred to as the status quo, which seems to me to have its roots in the heart of Old Volantis. Dany needs to uproot the status quo, or more accurately burn it down. The black-walled heart of Old Volantis is the second fire she must light, using the mount to dread. This is Dany's second plot-point, where the dragon queen will emerge.

The third mount is the Iron throne, her goal. GRRM chooses his words carefully, and mount is a word that can be used with a horse, a dragon and a throne. There's obviously a little double-entendre in play too but I feel that's secondary. She must first mount the throne before she can sacrifice it, just as she must first mount Drogon before she can burn Old Volantis with him, or first mount Silver and marry Drogo before she can ever light his funeral pyre. The third fire is her self-sacrifice, which includes sacrificing the throne, to save the realm. The dawn or spring is the third fire she must light, a process that will include lighting the sword, Lightbringer, but it is the sacrifice, not the sword, that will bring the dawn. This is Dany's third plot-point, where the true queen will finally emerge.

Quote

Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name. . . . mother of dragons, daughter of death . . . Glowing like sunset, a red sword was raised in the hand of a blue-eyed king who cast no shadow. A cloth dragon swayed on poles amidst a cheering crowd. From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire. . . . mother of dragons, slayer of lies . . . Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eyes bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness. . . . mother of dragons, bride of fire . . .

Nothing in the HotU points to her three mounts being three men. There are more than three men referenced in the vision to begin with, and Drogo is not one of them. The people referenced in the vision are Viserys, Rhaego, Rhaegar, Jon, Aegon, Stannis, a Greyjoy (probably Euron but possibly Victarion), and Sansa. Drogo is not mentioned. It is her silver, a mare not a stallion, that trotted through the grass to a darkling steam beneath a sea of stars. The darkling stream is the Rhoyne and the reason Dany is not mounted on her silver is because she will be mounted on a dragon and looking down on her silver by the time she crosses the Rhoyne.

 

 

 

 

[three-eyed monkey]

8 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I fully believe that their stories will connect. But as bitter enemies not as an item.

Euron intends to take Dany for himself but I think that he will end up with Cersei for a couple different reasons. One because the Lannisters are filthy rich and two because Theon's reappearance is going to make his plans go sideways.

Euron doesn't want Cersei or gold, he wants Dany's dragons. I doubt he cares much about Theon either. Euron doesn't really draw his authority from the kingsmoot. That was just a springboard. He is set on a bigger prize than the Iron Isles. He's trying to become a god-king who will rule the world after it has been broken and remade.

[The Bard of Banefort]

I expect that Dany’s time in Meereen will end the same way that most regime-change missions end in the Middle East, with her accepting that she can’t force a foreign people to change their ways and leaving, with the city quickly falling into disarray. She chose fire and blood at the end of ADWD, so I suspect we’ll see her make a bloody path across the continent on her way to Westeros, taking revenge on the slavers in Yunkai, Astapor, etc. This will also contribute to her gaining a fearsome reputation among the Westerosi (even if the show was way off, we know the common people will support Aegon based on the HOTU vision).

How long will that take though? I’m trying to figure out how much time it will take to move an entire army from Meereen to Westeros, especially if she stops to fight along the way.

[Groo]

10 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

How long will that take though? I’m trying to figure out how much time it will take to move an entire army from Meereen to Westeros, especially if she stops to fight along the way.

The big time difference is always whether or not you are trying to conquer and occupy a land. If you're just sacking cities and moving on then armies can move pretty quickly. She could probably get to Westeros in a year or so if she's just burning as she goes. That's with the giant assumptions, of course, that she wins her battles and can replace her casualties along the way. It's taking over governments and reestablishing administration and new authorities that takes a lot of time, even when it isn't a mess like Meereen.

[Rosetta Stone]

Westeros is crying for help because of the abysmal leadership from Robert, Tywin, Cersei, Jon Snow, and Balon.  Jon brought ruin to the Nightswatch.  The people of Westeros will soon have more than they can take of Baratheon-Stark folly.  They will ask Dany for help and she will come. 

The Greyjoys will rebuild Harren's old kingdom in the river lands and it will be more than the people can stand.  They will ask their Targaryen queen for help.  She will come and it will be a replay of Aegon's roasting of the Hoares. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

51 minutes ago, Rosetta Stone said:

Westeros is crying for help because of the abysmal leadership from Robert, Tywin, Cersei, Jon Snow, and Balon.  Jon brought ruin to the Nightswatch.  The people of Westeros will soon have more than they can take of Baratheon-Stark folly.  They will ask Dany for help and she will come. 

The Greyjoys will rebuild Harren's old kingdom in the river lands and it will be more than the people can stand.  They will ask their Targaryen queen for help.  She will come and it will be a replay of Aegon's roasting of the Hoares. 

Which Greyjoys?

[SeanF]

My guess is the journey would be;-

1. Return to Meereen.  Either defeat the Slavers, or they’ve been defeated.  Skahaz Mo Kansas is installed as a strongman, with the backing of the companies of freedmen and Brazen Beasts.

2.  The Volantene Armada revolts, under the influence of the Red Priests.  

3.  Yunkai is burned to the ground, and the surviving masters slaughtered.

4. Dany sails for Volantis.  The Dothraki ride overland.  The city’s slaves revolt.

5.  Pentos is taken, and given to the Tattered Prince.  This is the base from which the invasion of Westeros begins.

I think this can be achieved in a year to 18 months, if one uses the campaigns of Alexander or Genghis Khan as a comparison.  

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

On 4/17/2022 at 12:20 AM, Groo said:

After 5 books, Daenerys is still in Essos. In fact, geographically, she’s even further from Westeros than when she started. It’s more than just geography, however. Daenerys has committed herself to a cause, ending slavery, that has everything to do with Essos and nothing to do with Westeros. Her campaign in Slaver’s Bay has profound implications for the politics and economy of Essos but not for Westeros. She’s picked up a handful of Westerosi but her people have been Dothraki, Unsullied, Meereenese, and freed slaves. It doesn’t seem like anything internal to her story would actually push her to Westeros and that something from outside will need to finally pull her there.

One possibility would be finding out about the Others and receiving a plea to save the Seven Kingdoms. While structurally that could work, it would have some problems, apart from it feeling like a warmed-over version of Stannis going to the Wall. With Stannis, Davos was implicitly appealing to his strong sense of duty and giving him a useful alternative to just brooding at Dragonstone. Daenerys, on the other hand, would probably feel like it was a painful choice between saving the people of Westeros, whom she’s never actually known, and protecting the freed slaves she’s made herself responsible for. It isn’t a foregone conclusion that she would abandon her existing subjects for Westeros.

Another possibility would be if someone stole one of her dragons and took it to Westeros. The Mother of Dragons likely wouldn’t want to abandon one of her children. Her advisors would certainly be telling her that she can’t afford to have someone stealing the source of her power. Of course, at this point we’ve already seen how difficult it would be to actually take one of the dragons.

I think a more promising possibility would be for Aegon to be struggling with his campaign when Daenerys finally hears about him. Obviously, she would wonder if he really is her nephew but now she’d have to consider the possibility that she actually has family, family that she could be helping. It would be natural for her to wonder if one of the dragons was meant for Aegon. She’d probably worry about what would happen if he succeeded without her. Would she be forced to fight against family for the throne? Targaryens marry kin. Should she marry him? The list goes on. It would be hard for Daenerys to sit back and ignore all this. It could pull her to Westeros. On a side note, I think Aegon not yet having the throne when Daenerys returns opens up more narrative possibilities than if he’s already crowned.

Other ideas?
 

I agree it will either be that she needs to save Westeros or help Aegon. 

 

On 4/18/2022 at 12:04 PM, BlackLightning said:

I don't really think that she really cares about the Iron Throne anymore. I don't think she ever did. She only cared about her family's legacy and finding a home for herself and what loved ones she had left. She was raised believing that it was in the Seven Kingdoms by way of the Iron Throne. But she doesn't believe that anymore.

I agree, I don't think she ever cared much about the throne either. "The dragon may remember, but Dany does not" 

What we are left with, as others have stated, is Dany's want to save people. So, I think whatever she is saving people from - the Others, Euron, helping Aegon etc it will be that which brings her to Westeros. 

On 4/18/2022 at 3:36 PM, three-eyed monkey said:

I think this is a misunderstanding of Dany's character journey. The fact that she was forced into exile by the Usurper and his dogs when they murdered her father and stole his throne is her wound. The Iron Throne is her goal, winning it back and returning justice to the realm, as she sees it, is what's required to heal her wound. Dany has had several opportunities to abandon her goal, but always chose not to.

But it wasn't really. All the talk Viserys gave about taking the throne, Dany only wanted the house with the red door. She seems more concerned with slavery than winning back her throne atm. Now, I'm no opposed to the idea that she eventually comes to the understanding that she "needs" this to heal her wound but currently that doesn't seem to be her thought process. She does say her goal is to take the IT now that Viserys is gone but I read it more as something she thinks is now her duty rather than something she always wanted or needed. 

On 4/18/2022 at 3:36 PM, three-eyed monkey said:

It's not just about finding a home for herself because she is the blood of the dragon, the last dragon as far as she knows, and therefore she is determined to continue the legacy of her house. She could have spent her days in luxury and sailed the Jade Sea with Xaro, but she kept her dragons and stuck to her goal. It was her goal in AGoT and remains her goal in ADwD.

Right but it's what she truly desires, right? She thinks she cannot have that because she is the blood of the dragon. I think she is combining the two - want she truly wants is home, she thinks the only true home she will ever have is when she retakes her rightful place on the IT. It may be this that sets her over the edge though, when she realizes Westeros is not "home" to her & all her fighting & sacrifice was for naught. 

On 4/18/2022 at 3:36 PM, three-eyed monkey said:

Aegon has the same goal as Dany, and I get the impression that dragons, be they red or black, are not good at sharing.

Indeed. I do wonder what she will think of this. If she believes Aegon is real she may back off thinking he is the rightful heir. But probably not, not at this point, maybe before. She is the mother of dragons now & will not care that Aegon has the better claim. 

On 4/18/2022 at 8:23 PM, BlackLightning said:

Besides the fact that she will have Victarion and Moqorro in her ear?

I think she'll view Euron differently for the fact that he uses slaves and that he is a practitioner of blood magic. Dany just so happens to detest those things.

Also, more importantly Euron is specifically targeting her. Dany might be attracted to him on a purely physical level (I don't think she will) but she's going to figure out that any relationship with Euron will be the end of her life as she knows it.

I agree, I don't think Dany will see much in Euron. Maybe Victarion but I think she will probably be done with marriage alliances by the time her & Vic meet up. She may take him as a consort or something but I can't see her marrying either of them. 

On 4/19/2022 at 7:36 AM, three-eyed monkey said:

First of all, Dany needs to fall in love again. She yearns for love, like the one she had with Drogo. The theme of love versus duty is also present, with Daario and Hizdahr. To find love is one of the things she wants, but a queen is not always free to choose who she marries as there is a strong political element to such marriages. I think there's an inherent question here as to who in Westeros will Dany marry when she gets there and will it be the right choice? Can she find a suitable king or consort and find love again at the same time? Jon is the obvious red herring to this question. I think it will be Euron. She has a vulnerability around the Daario type, but it will be a bad choice and in many ways a betrayal of herself.

Right, Jon is the most obvious choice & parallel's his own arc of love vs duty. Don't you think it's possible though, that Dany will have decided marrying for duty has not done her well? She is becoming much more independent & I think it's possible she decides she isn't marrying again at all, or at the least she will only marry for love. I can't see her loving Euron unless he puts on one hell of a show, she is against most of what he stands for. 

Another thing I don't see mentioned much is the possibility that she would marry Aegon? If she believes he is real it would stand to reason she would think she should marry him. 

She does have a vulnerability for the Daario type but doesn't Vic fit this bill a little better? She is going to meet him first. Idk, just spit balling. 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

13 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

I think we're all meant to think that.

Personally, I think Jon is dead. He'll spend a lot of Winds in ghost before returning to take his body, or should I say corpse, back from the Others. Jon's going to look like Coldhands, and I don't think that's Dany's type.

Some people believe Jon is dead and Mel will bring him back. If so he'll be like undead Beric. Is Dany really that freaky?

Alternatively Jon is not dead, just wounded, but in a story where it is established that people can return from the dead that would seem a bit weak.

I agree Jon must be dead. I don't know if he will look like cold hands though. Undead Beric is still mostly Beric though, even after returning several times. He says he loses a bit of himself each time, if Jon is only brought back once, it might not be a huge difference. Of course how long he is dead may contribute to this also. 

Beric, brought back fairly quickly but multiple times seems to be of mostly sound mind, even though he can't remember much of his past. Cat though, is quite a bit worse off, though she seems to retain her memories. Maybe it has something to do with how you die & how long you are dead? Jon's death would be similar to Cat's in that they were both betrayed but Jon didn't watch, what he believed to be his last living child die first so there's that. Jon may be dead a while but ice preserves so that may help. Also, neither Cat nor Beric had a Ghost to hang out in while they were dead either. 

If I had to guess I would say Jon's body probably won't be much different. He may return hell bent on revenge or he may return done with it all, ready to go off into the forest with Ghost & leave the rest of the world behind. I could see it being either way. 

13 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

I think the first mount is her mare, Silver, she rode to her wedding with Drogo. Then there was Mirri's first treason, followed by Drogo's funeral pyre, which was the first fire. This was Dany's first plot-point, where the mother of dragons emerged.

I agree. 

13 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

The second mount to dread is Drogon, likened to Balerion the Black Dread. The second treason for gold is being committed by those who profit most from the slave trade, whom I earlier referred to as the status quo, which seems to me to have its roots in the heart of Old Volantis. Dany needs to uproot the status quo, or more accurately burn it down. The black-walled heart of Old Volantis is the second fire she must light, using the mount to dread. This is Dany's second plot-point, where the dragon queen will emerge.

Can you elaborate a little on this? I agree Drogon is probably the mount to dread, but as to the treason part, what exactly would the treason be? The fire to light I understand. 

13 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

The third mount is the Iron throne, her goal. GRRM chooses his words carefully, and mount is a word that can be used with a horse, a dragon and a throne. There's obviously a little double-entendre in play too but I feel that's secondary. She must first mount the throne before she can sacrifice it, just as she must first mount Drogon before she can burn Old Volantis with him, or first mount Silver and marry Drogo before she can ever light his funeral pyre. The third fire is her self-sacrifice, which includes sacrificing the throne, to save the realm. The dawn or spring is the third fire she must light, a process that will include lighting the sword, Lightbringer, but it is the sacrifice, not the sword, that will bring the dawn. This is Dany's third plot-point, where the true queen will finally emerge.

I don't want to derail but I'm quite interested in this, do you have a thread somewhere on it? 

 

[three-eyed monkey]

The big question is the timeline, especially given that the 5-year gap is no more. I firmly believe he knows what he wants to do and where every character is going but the difficulty is in getting them there in time.

One of the pressing issues is that Dany is on a clock now because the action is moving ahead in Westeros. Aegon is at Storm's End, Stannis is a Winterfell. Both want the Iron Throne, same as Dany. These are two people Dany saw in the HotU vision. Dany has lies to slay and these two are amongst the false kings, so I expect her to encounter them both. The easy thing might be to drop the pay-off for some of the things set up, for example he could kill Stannis outside Winterfell and problem solved, but it's a poor solution and I don't think the storyteller in GRRM would easily accept that.

Stannis has an arc and it ends in fire. Dany is the one who will provide that fire. So somewhere between Winterfell and King's Landing these two must meet. Stannis was last seen freezing in the crofters village and victory seemed unlikely, but Stannis has a plan and I am confident he will see it through. In fact, I'm confident that he already took Winterfell a few days before Jon XIII, ADwD, and is besieged by Robett Glover and the northern reserve as we speak. This siege will prevail until Stannis is down to rats and boot leather, and until Davos arrives with Rickon. If Stannis wins the North, thanks to Rickon, he could be marching down the kingsroad by the second half of Winds and meeting Dany to conclude his story by the end of the book, ideally.

Could Dany make such a rendezvous? Not with all her strength, no. But Dany and Drogon? Possibly.

Dany is off to Vaes Dothrak next to do the mother of mountains and unite the khalasars, etc. The battle in Meereen has already started. I'm not sure how long it will last but I don't think Dany will be back to influence the battle. She may instead try to end the war with one fell swoop on Old Volantis, who are the ones largely behind the army attacking Meereen. I think we get a hint of this when Tyrion was thinking about horselords and Volantis.

Quote

If I were khal, I would feint at Selhorys, let the Volantenes rush to defend it, then swing south and ride hard for Volantis itself.

Dany will be khal by the time she is finished in Vaes Dothrak and she could well pull this move. Burning the black-walled heart of Old Volantis will end the war. There may be some pockets of slavers that will hold out, like in Yunkai or Astapor, but with the root burned the branches will ultimately perish, and Dany doesn't have time to go back and deal with them individually.

Burning Volantis will also make quite a statement, much like Aegon's field of fire. Potential enemies will have to think twice before resisting her. The Free Cities hire sellsword companies to fight their wars, or often resort to bribery and gifts to deal with the Dothraki. How prepared are they to deal with dragons? I think it's more likely that they will pay tribute to the dragonqueen, even if they don't like it.

Already the Red Temple are calling her Azor Ahai, come to make the world anew. Burning the slave trade down at it's root will only reinforce their belief that Dany is the true fulfillment of their prophecy. The slave population will rise to their mother, the breaker of chains. The burning of Volantis is going to send tremors through Essos as fast as the news can spread, and establish Dany as a force.

In terms of Dany's arc, we can see that she is following a typical Hero's Journey template. In Meereen she faced the problem of how to rule, which is a question that is central to her character. She wants to be a good queen, she is willing to compromise to bring peace but her enemies are not willing to compromise. This step of the Hero's Journey is called the Ordeal, or sometimes the Dragon's Lair, which seems more appropriate given that Drogon made his lair atop the Great Pyramid of Meereen. The next step of the journey is called Seizing the Sword, and this is where she will unite the khalasars and use Drogon, her sword, to burn Volantis. The next step after that is called The Road Home, which marks the start of the third and final act of her story, where she strives to attain her goal armed with the lessons of the second act. Once she burns Volantis, this will be her next step. So I expect her to be starting home midway through Winds, and reaching Dragonstone and potentially Westeros to encounter Stannis by the end of the book, even if her army is lagging behind.

Stannis army will be relatively small, nowhere near the size of the army than confronted Aegon, so I think she could handle it without her army.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Dany taking a while to get to KL could actually help with Aegon’s plot, since it would give him time to beat the Lannisters and settle down as the new golden boy king, especially if he ends up marrying Arianne and having a child. The bigger question for me is Jon and the North, and Euron. I don’t really know what’s going to happen with them.

I find it most likely that Cersei becomes a captive at the Red Keep, but it’s not inconceivable that she could team up with Euron in the books. Judging by Aerion’s Forsaken vision, he’ll have a woman by his side soon.

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Dany taking a while to get to KL could actually help with Aegon’s plot, since it would give him time to beat the Lannisters and settle down as the new golden boy king, especially if he ends up marrying Arianne and having a child. The bigger question for me is Jon and the North, and Euron. I don’t really know what’s going to happen with them.

I find it most likely that Cersei becomes a captive at the Red Keep, but it’s not inconceivable that she could team up with Euron in the books. Judging by Aerion’s Forsaken vision, he’ll have a woman by his side soon.

My guess is most of the Reach will be out of Aegon’s control, as well as the West and the North.  The Tyrells and Lannisters are huge clans, and will still be around even if they lose the capital.

I think that Jon Connington and the Sand Snakes will carry out a brutal purge, starting with Tommen and Margaery.

[John Suburbs]

On 4/17/2022 at 12:20 AM, Groo said:

After 5 books, Daenerys is still in Essos. In fact, geographically, she’s even further from Westeros than when she started. It’s more than just geography, however. Daenerys has committed herself to a cause, ending slavery, that has everything to do with Essos and nothing to do with Westeros. Her campaign in Slaver’s Bay has profound implications for the politics and economy of Essos but not for Westeros. She’s picked up a handful of Westerosi but her people have been Dothraki, Unsullied, Meereenese, and freed slaves. It doesn’t seem like anything internal to her story would actually push her to Westeros and that something from outside will need to finally pull her there.

One possibility would be finding out about the Others and receiving a plea to save the Seven Kingdoms. While structurally that could work, it would have some problems, apart from it feeling like a warmed-over version of Stannis going to the Wall. With Stannis, Davos was implicitly appealing to his strong sense of duty and giving him a useful alternative to just brooding at Dragonstone. Daenerys, on the other hand, would probably feel like it was a painful choice between saving the people of Westeros, whom she’s never actually known, and protecting the freed slaves she’s made herself responsible for. It isn’t a foregone conclusion that she would abandon her existing subjects for Westeros.

Another possibility would be if someone stole one of her dragons and took it to Westeros. The Mother of Dragons likely wouldn’t want to abandon one of her children. Her advisors would certainly be telling her that she can’t afford to have someone stealing the source of her power. Of course, at this point we’ve already seen how difficult it would be to actually take one of the dragons.

I think a more promising possibility would be for Aegon to be struggling with his campaign when Daenerys finally hears about him. Obviously, she would wonder if he really is her nephew but now she’d have to consider the possibility that she actually has family, family that she could be helping. It would be natural for her to wonder if one of the dragons was meant for Aegon. She’d probably worry about what would happen if he succeeded without her. Would she be forced to fight against family for the throne? Targaryens marry kin. Should she marry him? The list goes on. It would be hard for Daenerys to sit back and ignore all this. It could pull her to Westeros. On a side note, I think Aegon not yet having the throne when Daenerys returns opens up more narrative possibilities than if he’s already crowned.

Other ideas?
 

Someone will blow the dragon horn that Victarion is carrying and that will instantly bind Rhaegal and Viserion to Euron. They will fly to his side and he will rain fire down on Westeros.

After dealing with the Dothraki, and making sure that Jhaqo dies screaming like she vowed, she will fly Drogo to Westeros to rescue her children.

Then maybe she might deal with the Others, but only if they actually start posing a threat to her kingdom.

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 4/18/2022 at 2:15 PM, Groo said:

What do you think will be different about Euron's actions compared to anyone else in Westeros? Won't he look a usurper to Dany, just like all the other usurpers?

Euron is Black Harren come again. Nobody in Westeros can stop his iron men. His evil can only be stopped when a mighty Targaryen puts the iron men in the fire. Dany is that Targaryen. She is the reincarnation of Aegon the Conqueror and the hero of this epic. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

One of the pressing issues is that Dany is on a clock now because the action is moving ahead in Westeros. Aegon is at Storm's End, Stannis is a Winterfell. Both want the Iron Throne, same as Dany. These are two people Dany saw in the HotU vision. Dany has lies to slay and these two are amongst the false kings, so I expect her to encounter them both. The easy thing might be to drop the pay-off for some of the things set up, for example he could kill Stannis outside Winterfell and problem solved, but it's a poor solution and I don't think the storyteller in GRRM would easily accept that.

I agree, all of this. 

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Stannis has an arc and it ends in fire. Dany is the one who will provide that fire. So somewhere between Winterfell and King's Landing these two must meet. Stannis was last seen freezing in the crofters village and victory seemed unlikely, but Stannis has a plan and I am confident he will see it through. In fact, I'm confident that he already took Winterfell a few days before Jon XIII, ADwD, and is besieged by Robett Glover and the northern reserve as we speak. This siege will prevail until Stannis is down to rats and boot leather, and until Davos arrives with Rickon. If Stannis wins the North, thanks to Rickon, he could be marching down the kingsroad by the second half of Winds and meeting Dany to conclude his story by the end of the book, ideally.

Ahh, I like it. Davos saviing Stannis again, much like smuggling the onions in the first time did. 

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Could Dany make such a rendezvous? Not with all her strength, no. But Dany and Drogon? Possibly.

Yeah, I imagine she will be getting more & more control over riding Drogon & more confidence in the coming book, making her travel much easier & quicker. What do you think will pull her there though? Hearing Stannis is marching on KL isn't much for her to stir about, I don't think. 

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Dany is off to Vaes Dothrak next to do the mother of mountains and unite the khalasars, etc. The battle in Meereen has already started. I'm not sure how long it will last but I don't think Dany will be back to influence the battle. She may instead try to end the war with one fell swoop on Old Volantis, who are the ones largely behind the army attacking Meereen. I think we get a hint of this when Tyrion was thinking about horselords and Volantis.

Right, the only influence I could see Dany having on this is coming in at the last minute & maybe clearing things up. Even that is doubtful though, as you said she has other things to do first. 

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Dany will be khal by the time she is finished in Vaes Dothrak and she could well pull this move. Burning the black-walled heart of Old Volantis will end the war. There may be some pockets of slavers that will hold out, like in Yunkai or Astapor, but with the root burned the branches will ultimately perish, and Dany doesn't have time to go back and deal with them individually.

Burning Volantis will also make quite a statement, much like Aegon's field of fire. Potential enemies will have to think twice before resisting her. The Free Cities hire sellsword companies to fight their wars, or often resort to bribery and gifts to deal with the Dothraki. How prepared are they to deal with dragons? I think it's more likely that they will pay tribute to the dragonqueen, even if they don't like it.

Interesting. 

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Already the Red Temple are calling her Azor Ahai, come to make the world anew. Burning the slave trade down at it's root will only reinforce their belief that Dany is the true fulfillment of their prophecy. The slave population will rise to their mother, the breaker of chains. The burning of Volantis is going to send tremors through Essos as fast as the news can spread, and establish Dany as a force.

I do like it. I've often thought Dany's downfall will be her need to "save" people. At some point she may become convinced she knows what is good for them, whether or not they want it. That leads down a very slippery slope. All the worse if she is originally accepted as their savior. 

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

In terms of Dany's arc, we can see that she is following a typical Hero's Journey template. In Meereen she faced the problem of how to rule, which is a question that is central to her character. She wants to be a good queen, she is willing to compromise to bring peace but her enemies are not willing to compromise. This step of the Hero's Journey is called the Ordeal, or sometimes the Dragon's Lair, which seems more appropriate given that Drogon made his lair atop the Great Pyramid of Meereen. The next step of the journey is called Seizing the Sword, and this is where she will unite the khalasars and use Drogon, her sword, to burn Volantis. The next step after that is called The Road Home, which marks the start of the third and final act of her story, where she strives to attain her goal armed with the lessons of the second act. Once she burns Volantis, this will be her next step. So I expect her to be starting home midway through Winds, and reaching Dragonstone and potentially Westeros to encounter Stannis by the end of the book, even if her army is lagging behind.

Stannis army will be relatively small, nowhere near the size of the army than confronted Aegon, so I think she could handle it without her army.

Yeah, I like what you said earlier about Dany struggling between doing good & accomplishing things. She has compromised, she has sacrificed & it's gotten her into worse & worse situations. It's easy to see how, if she brings herself out of this with Fire & Blood, she would be convinced she had it wrong all along, & that this is the way forth. Kill the boy. 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Someone will blow the dragon horn that Victarion is carrying and that will instantly bind Rhaegal and Viserion to Euron. They will fly to his side and he will rain fire down on Westeros.

What do you make of no one being able to blow it thus far though? The man that did, died right? & no dragons were bound so something didn't go right. 

How will someone successfully blow it? 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Dany taking a while to get to KL could actually help with Aegon’s plot, since it would give him time to beat the Lannisters and settle down as the new golden boy king, especially if he ends up marrying Arianne and having a child. The bigger question for me is Jon and the North, and Euron. I don’t really know what’s going to happen with them.

I find it most likely that Cersei becomes a captive at the Red Keep, but it’s not inconceivable that she could team up with Euron in the books. Judging by Aerion’s Forsaken vision, he’ll have a woman by his side soon.

Yeah & also for his character to build up for us, the readers. You would think, with so many characters a new introduction wouldn't have bothered me much, but I feel as if I hardly know Aegon! LOL the other characters are old familiar friends in contrast. 

[James Arryn]

3 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

What do you make of no one being able to blow it thus far though? The man that did, died right? & no dragons were bound so something didn't go right. 

How will someone successfully blow it? 

I have no idea if/how the dragon horn will work, but if there’s an answer to this I’d guess proximity or something extra that Euron knows about. Because though it didn’t work, it’s definitely shown magical properties, ie kills users, bleeding chest tattoos, etc.

[three-eyed monkey]

1 hour ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

But it wasn't really. All the talk Viserys gave about taking the throne, Dany only wanted the house with the red door. She seems more concerned with slavery than winning back her throne atm. Now, I'm no opposed to the idea that she eventually comes to the understanding that she "needs" this to heal her wound but currently that doesn't seem to be her thought process. She does say her goal is to take the IT now that Viserys is gone but I read it more as something she thinks is now her duty rather than something she always wanted or needed. 

Yes, Dany is a good person. She was brought into the game of thrones as a pawn, once she reached womanhood and was able to be married to Drogo in exchange for an army. She certainly had initial fears about the whole thing and wanted to cling to her ordinary world where she had been safe in the house with the red door, but she went ahead with it and when Viserys died she took up the torch, realizing that she was the real dragon, not her brother. It may be a goal imposed by duty but it is her goal nonetheless.

I agree that it's not something that she always wanted, nor is it something she needs. But she is the last Targaryen, in her eyes, and therefore she is the one who needs to take up the duty. She believes the Usurper and his dogs stole the kingdom and brought injustice to the realm. She lost her family and was forced into exile in the process. This is her wound. I'm not saying that winning back the throne will heal the wound, just that Dany feels she needs to bring justice back to the realm by taking back the throne. In fact she is wrong on this because there is a difference between justice and vengeance, but she will learn that before the end.

Her thought process is largely concerned with the conflict between wanting to be a good queen and needing to do bad things to gain the throne in the first place. This is the conundrum she needs to solve to resolve her arc.

Dany does want to help people, save the realm, give herself to her people, because she is a good person, and that's what she needs to remember.

2 hours ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Right but it's what she truly desires, right? She thinks she cannot have that because she is the blood of the dragon. I think she is combining the two - want she truly wants is home, she thinks the only true home she will ever have is when she retakes her rightful place on the IT.

I'm saying her goal is the Iron Throne. That's what's driving her story, her desire to win back the throne. What happens when she does? She'll find that it is not what she really wants and saving her people is more important than her perceived rights. She'll have the cart before the horse, as Stannis put it, and only when she puts the horse before the cart will she find the resolution to her conflict.

2 hours ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

It may be this that sets her over the edge though, when she realizes Westeros is not "home" to her & all her fighting & sacrifice was for naught.

Set her over the edge, as in burn King's Landing? I don't think it will happen. She will have burned Volantis on the way, so the threat of her doing it will exist, but I'm betting her coin lands on greatness, not madness.

2 hours ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Indeed. I do wonder what she will think of this. If she believes Aegon is real she may back off thinking he is the rightful heir. But probably not, not at this point, maybe before. She is the mother of dragons now & will not care that Aegon has the better claim. 

Yeah, not at this point.

2 hours ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Right, Jon is the most obvious choice & parallel's his own arc of love vs duty. Don't you think it's possible though, that Dany will have decided marrying for duty has not done her well? She is becoming much more independent & I think it's possible she decides she isn't marrying again at all, or at the least she will only marry for love. I can't see her loving Euron unless he puts on one hell of a show, she is against most of what he stands for. 

I think Euron will put on a show. I mean, Daario is not exactly someone who stands for the same things as Dany, but she lusts for him anyway. I think she'll make another mistake with Euron.

The thing about love vs duty is that they should not stand in opposition to each other. When we perform an obligation out of a sense of duty, it can often feel hollow. Duty does not always include love but love always encompasses a sense of duty. When you love someone, it's very easy to do your duty to them. Without love, duty is just an obligation, be it legal, moral, or whatever.

2 hours ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

I agree Jon must be dead. I don't know if he will look like cold hands though. Undead Beric is still mostly Beric though, even after returning several times. He says he loses a bit of himself each time, if Jon is only brought back once, it might not be a huge difference. Of course how long he is dead may contribute to this also. 

Beric, brought back fairly quickly but multiple times seems to be of mostly sound mind, even though he can't remember much of his past. Cat though, is quite a bit worse off, though she seems to retain her memories. Maybe it has something to do with how you die & how long you are dead? Jon's death would be similar to Cat's in that they were both betrayed but Jon didn't watch, what he believed to be his last living child die first so there's that. Jon may be dead a while but ice preserves so that may help. Also, neither Cat nor Beric had a Ghost to hang out in while they were dead either. 

Yeah but Beric was still dead. I think he knew that the wedding with Allyria was off. Do you really want Allyria to dodge a bullet but Dany end up with a stiff? I thought you liked Dany?

Coldhands looks the way he is because he is dead. His heart stopped pumping and the blood congealed in his extremities, leaving him pale with swollen black hands. I don't see why it would be different for Jon. I believe Coldhands was the last hero, and Jon will be the next Coldhands. The story of the 79 sentinels tells us - break your oath in life and watch forever in death. The last hero broke his oath too, symbolized by his broken sword, and he's still out there ranging on his elk. Coldhands is a glimpse of Jon's future, in my opinion.

3 hours ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Another thing I don't see mentioned much is the possibility that she would marry Aegon? If she believes he is real it would stand to reason she would think she should marry him. 

I think it is probable that a marriage alliance with Aegon will be proposed, or at least seem like a possibility. It makes sense in many ways, as long as Aegon is not married to or in love with someone else before she gets there. It would have to be agreeable from his point of view too. I'm not sure how he'd feel about it. Could be he feels threatened by Dany, given that she has dragons and they both feel they are the true king or queen. But it's definitely possible.

3 hours ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

She does have a vulnerability for the Daario type but doesn't Vic fit this bill a little better? She is going to meet him first. Idk, just spit balling. 

I'm just spit balling too. I think if we had a five year gap then Euron would be the one taking the dragonhorn to Dany. We don't so it fell to Victarion, while Euron advanced his plans in Westeros at the same time. As such I think Vic is just a bridge to connect back to Euron in the new time line. I don't think he's an endgame player like Euron and Dany, so I don't expect him to live that long.

I believe the Greyjoy in Dany's vision, smiling sadly on the prow of a ship, was originally Euron. With Vic taking part of Euron's role in Essos, it could now be Vic on the prow of the ship, but I think all that will straighten itself out by the time we get back to Westeros.

3 hours ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

If I had to guess I would say Jon's body probably won't be much different. He may return hell bent on revenge or he may return done with it all, ready to go off into the forest with Ghost & leave the rest of the world behind. I could see it being either way. 

I think initially Jon will be done with it all. He'll spend time in Ghost, a second life worthy of a king according to Varamyr, and be tempted to leave the world behind. However, Ghost is not going to be able to defend the realm, which is Jon's goal. So Jon will have a major decision to make about returning to his body and his duty to the realm. I think we all know how he will choose.

I believe Jon is the blue-eyed king with a red sword, from Dany's vision, so I think he'll be taking back his body from the Others.

4 hours ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Can you elaborate a little on this? I agree Drogon is probably the mount to dread, but as to the treason part, what exactly would the treason be? The fire to light I understand. 

The second treason is for gold. The gold flows from the slave trade, but Dany wants to close down the slave trade, so the slavers are trying to remove, undermine, or neutralize her in some way in order to keep the gold flowing.

Quote

In Volantis he had seen the galleys taking on provisions. The whole city had seemed drunk. Sailors and soldiers and tinkers had been observed dancing in the streets with nobles and fat merchants, and in every inn and winesink cups were being raised to the new triarchs. All the talk had been of the gold and gems and slaves that would flood into Volantis once the dragon queen was dead.

Like I said, the slave trade is like a tree. It has branches in Meereen and Yunkai and far afield, but it's roots are in Volantis. Mount the second mount, deal with the second treason, and light the second fire.

4 hours ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

I don't want to derail but I'm quite interested in this, do you have a thread somewhere on it? 

I have the essays written, but I need to get around to polishing them a bit and posting them on the link below and then I'll drop them here for some discussion.