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What will bring Daenerys to Westeros?


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1 hour ago, James Arryn said:

I have no idea if/how the dragon horn will work, but if there’s an answer to this I’d guess proximity or something extra that Euron knows about. Because though it didn’t work, it’s definitely shown magical properties, ie kills users, bleeding chest tattoos, etc.

Indeed. It's probably said but how is the horn bound to Euron? You would think the person blowing the horn would be the dragon binder but Euron is pretty confident that's not the case. If it's explained, I don't remember it. 

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11 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Yes, Dany is a good person. She was brought into the game of thrones as a pawn, once she reached womanhood and was able to be married to Drogo in exchange for an army. She certainly had initial fears about the whole thing and wanted to cling to her ordinary world where she had been safe in the house with the red door, but she went ahead with it and when Viserys died she took up the torch, realizing that she was the real dragon, not her brother. It may be a goal imposed by duty but it is her goal nonetheless.

Yeah, I agree with this. It does seem to be her goal, I had a poor choice of words. I guess what I meant was it wasn't her hearts desire, not what she really wants. 

12 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

I agree that it's not something that she always wanted, nor is it something she needs. But she is the last Targaryen, in her eyes, and therefore she is the one who needs to take up the duty. She believes the Usurper and his dogs stole the kingdom and brought injustice to the realm. She lost her family and was forced into exile in the process. This is her wound. I'm not saying that winning back the throne will heal the wound, just that Dany feels she needs to bring justice back to the realm by taking back the throne. In fact she is wrong on this because there is a difference between justice and vengeance, but she will learn that before the end.

It's remniscent of Stannis isn't it? Bound to duty. Though Stannis is losing his way I think, or maybe has already lost it. 

13 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Her thought process is largely concerned with the conflict between wanting to be a good queen and needing to do bad things to gain the throne in the first place. This is the conundrum she needs to solve to resolve her arc.

Dany does want to help people, save the realm, give herself to her people, because she is a good person, and that's what she needs to remember.

For sure. 

13 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

I'm saying her goal is the Iron Throne. That's what's driving her story, her desire to win back the throne. What happens when she does? She'll find that it is not what she really wants and saving her people is more important than her perceived rights. She'll have the cart before the horse, as Stannis put it, and only when she puts the horse before the cart will she find the resolution to her conflict.

Ah, yes, remniscent of Stannis. Yeah I agree. I didn't state things very clearly to begin with I think. 

14 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Set her over the edge, as in burn King's Landing? I don't think it will happen. She will have burned Volantis on the way, so the threat of her doing it will exist, but I'm betting her coin lands on greatness, not madness.

Not necessarily burning KL, I find that pretty unlikely. Just that it may finally break her, she may finally give up on saving people or compromising & decide fire & blood is the only way to accomplish things. 

15 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

think Euron will put on a show. I mean, Daario is not exactly someone who stands for the same things as Dany, but she lusts for him anyway. I think she'll make another mistake with Euron.

Sure, she lusts for Daario but wasn't silly enough to marry him. She may marry Euron. I can see her sleeping with him. I hope she doesn't marry him. I suppose it will all depend on what she knows of him. Daario wasn't someone who stood for the same things but he wasn't malicious & cruel either. If he can hide that from her, he may have a chance. 

17 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

The thing about love vs duty is that they should not stand in opposition to each other. When we perform an obligation out of a sense of duty, it can often feel hollow. Duty does not always include love but love always encompasses a sense of duty. When you love someone, it's very easy to do your duty to them. Without love, duty is just an obligation, be it legal, moral, or whatever.

Oh I absolutely agree, I just think it's something both Dany & Jon are struggling to  understand. Stannis also to a point, though he doesn't seem to have as much love lol 

18 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Yeah but Beric was still dead. I think he knew that the wedding with Allyria was off. Do you really want Allyria to dodge a bullet but Dany end up with a stiff? I thought you liked Dany?

Haha! I do like Dany. 

Is he dead though? I mean he is up walking around, talking, fighting, etc. I just don't know if we know enough about it to say for certain how Jon will turn out. 

I don't really like the idea of Dany & Jon being together, Jon dead or not. 

20 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Coldhands looks the way he is because he is dead. His heart stopped pumping and the blood congealed in his extremities, leaving him pale with swollen black hands. I don't see why it would be different for Jon. I believe Coldhands was the last hero, and Jon will be the next Coldhands. The story of the 79 sentinels tells us - break your oath in life and watch forever in death. The last hero broke his oath too, symbolized by his broken sword, and he's still out there ranging on his elk. Coldhands is a glimpse of Jon's future, in my opinion.

Oh man, I hope not. I can see where you are coming from though. I like Jon too & even though I know this isn't a happy ever after story, I would like to see Jon find a slice of happiness somewhere. 

21 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

I think it is probable that a marriage alliance with Aegon will be proposed, or at least seem like a possibility. It makes sense in many ways, as long as Aegon is not married to or in love with someone else before she gets there. It would have to be agreeable from his point of view too. I'm not sure how he'd feel about it. Could be he feels threatened by Dany, given that she has dragons and they both feel they are the true king or queen. But it's definitely possible.

Yeah, I hadn't really thought of things from his perspective. She may see this as a solution, things finally falling together for her: another Targ so she can marry like the Targs of old but he is not likely to see things the same. Iirc, he refuses to go to her doesn't he? I can see him being threatened by the dragons but could also see him thinking it's better to have the dragons on his side than against him. 

23 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

I'm just spit balling too. I think if we had a five year gap then Euron would be the one taking the dragonhorn to Dany. We don't so it fell to Victarion, while Euron advanced his plans in Westeros at the same time. As such I think Vic is just a bridge to connect back to Euron in the new time line. I don't think he's an endgame player like Euron and Dany, so I don't expect him to live that long.

Yeah, I think that was the original plan also. I do like Vic much more than Euron, not that he is a great guy, I just like his character more. I think the abomination kind of ruined Euron for me though, I'm way over due for a re-read. 

24 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

I believe the Greyjoy in Dany's vision, smiling sadly on the prow of a ship, was originally Euron. With Vic taking part of Euron's role in Essos, it could now be Vic on the prow of the ship, but I think all that will straighten itself out by the time we get back to Westeros.

I always root for the underdog I think & want Vic to get some revenge on Euron, whether that's by stealing his "girl" or "his" dragons or something. 

25 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

I think initially Jon will be done with it all. He'll spend time in Ghost, a second life worthy of a king according to Varamyr, and be tempted to leave the world behind. However, Ghost is not going to be able to defend the realm, which is Jon's goal. So Jon will have a major decision to make about returning to his body and his duty to the realm. I think we all know how he will choose.

I believe Jon is the blue-eyed king with a red sword, from Dany's vision, so I think he'll be taking back his body from the Others.

That would be interesting. I wonder if we will have a POV of Jon inside Ghost. 

25 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

The second treason is for gold. The gold flows from the slave trade, but Dany wants to close down the slave trade, so the slavers are trying to remove, undermine, or neutralize her in some way in order to keep the gold flowing.

Ahh gotcha. 

26 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

I have the essays written, but I need to get around to polishing them a bit and posting them on the link below and then I'll drop them here for some discussion.

Please tag me when you do, it's always a pleasure reading your theories. 

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15 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

It's remniscent of Stannis isn't it? Bound to duty. Though Stannis is losing his way I think, or maybe has already lost it. 

Yes, Stannis is a secondary character who has lessons for primary characters like Jon and Dany. In many ways Stannis is demonstrating how not to do it. He will choose winning the throne over saving the kingdom. This makes him an oathbreaker as kings are sworn to defend the realm. A true king or queen, puts their duty, which is defending the realm, ahead of their rights, the Iron Throne. A false king or queen puts their rights ahead of their duty.

I think that every king who sits on the Iron Throne has this wrong. They all put their rights ahead of their duty when the are being formally addressed. King Robert Baratheon, first of his name, king of the first men and the andals, blah, blah... and then finally, defender of the realm. Rights first, duty last. They're all false kings and the realm bleeds every time.

Jon and Dany must choose differently than Stannis and prove they are true, by putting saving the realm ahead of winning the throne, and I believe they will, though it will come at a great cost to both.

15 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Just that it may finally break her, she may finally give up on saving people or compromising & decide fire & blood is the only way to accomplish things. 

I think she's at that point now. But as I said her coin is still turning midair and I feel there is one more turn to come after she wins the Iron Throne. That's when he coin will land, and I think it will land on greatness. I do think that Dany is the true hero of this story, and how her arc goes so goes Westeros. There will be other heroes too obviously, but saving the kingdom will largely depend on Dany's willingness to truly sacrifice herself for the realm.

16 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sure, she lusts for Daario but wasn't silly enough to marry him. She may marry Euron. I can see her sleeping with him. I hope she doesn't marry him. I suppose it will all depend on what she knows of him. Daario wasn't someone who stood for the same things but he wasn't malicious & cruel either. If he can hide that from her, he may have a chance. 

In short, I expect her to get pregnant by a Greyjoy. I'm not sure if it will be Vic or Euron, or if they'll be married or not. I'm basing this on the legend of the Grey King and Nagga the Sea Dragon, which I see as an Ironborn rendition of the Azor Ahai and Nissa Nissa legend.

16 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Is he dead though? I mean he is up walking around, talking, fighting, etc. I just don't know if we know enough about it to say for certain how Jon will turn out. 

Undead, I guess. But boyfriend material or friend zone? And could Beric still get someone pregnant? Will Jon? His oath says he will father no children, and I feel he won't. Yet I still feel Dany's womb will quicken again, once she is past the glowing skies of Valyria and the "sun" sets in the east behind her. So I don't see Jon being the father of that child. It doesn't exclude her loving Jon I guess, but by the time they meet there won't be much time, or pages, left to develop that.

16 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Oh man, I hope not. I can see where you are coming from though. I like Jon too & even though I know this isn't a happy ever after story, I would like to see Jon find a slice of happiness somewhere. 

I guess saving the realm, which is his goal, is the sweet part, but there is going to be a lot of bitter. GRRM's not going to let anyone be the hero for free.

16 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah, I think that was the original plan also. I do like Vic much more than Euron, not that he is a great guy, I just like his character more. I think the abomination kind of ruined Euron for me though, I'm way over due for a re-read. 

Don't forget the Winds chapter, I think it should have been at the end of Dance too.

16 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah, I hadn't really thought of things from his perspective. She may see this as a solution, things finally falling together for her: another Targ so she can marry like the Targs of old but he is not likely to see things the same. Iirc, he refuses to go to her doesn't he? I can see him being threatened by the dragons but could also see him thinking it's better to have the dragons on his side than against him.

If not a Greyjoy, then it will be another dragon who is father of Dany's child. Given what I said about Jon, then that would leave Aegon, even though he's a Blackfyre. (Or Tyrion I guess.)

16 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

That would be interesting. I wonder if we will have a POV of Jon inside Ghost. 

Jon's next pov will be in Ghost. I think we'll have a few. I think Ghost and Shaggydog, and possibly Summer too, will tear up Ramsay and his hounds, hunting Jeyne Poole towards Castle Black, although that could come from Davos point of view. But Jon will have to make his decision to return to his body from Ghost, so we'll definitely have that. Jon and Bran can also connect when Jon is in Ghost, as we have seen, so there will be that too. That could be the R+L reveal if Bran learns something the trees have seen.

16 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Please tag me when you do, it's always a pleasure reading your theories. 

Thank you. I always like reading your posts too.

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Martin has sent Tyrion to Meereen and Daenerys to the Dothraki.   He didn't do that for kicks and giggles; there's a reason behind it.  Given how much time is left in the story (not much), I'm guessing he's setting the table for Daenerys's return to Westeros.  In that case, it's likely that her reason for going to Westeros will have to do with the Dothraki or Tyrion's presence in Meereen. 

The Dothraki can provide her with an army, and it's possible she could receive prophecy or information at Vaes Dothrak, where I think she may be headed.  Tyrion could potentially stabilize things in Meereen, leaving her free to leave.  Martin has said they won't meet until late in the book, so Daenerys might not return to Meereen, or if so, only briefly.

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20 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

What do you make of no one being able to blow it thus far though? The man that did, died right? & no dragons were bound so something didn't go right. 

How will someone successfully blow it? 

Yes, it was blown, but on the Iron Isles, half a word away from the dragons. I can only surmise that the dragons have to actually hear the horn to be bound by it.

And it doesn't matter to Euron if the horn-blower dies, as long as the horn sounds. The wild card in all this is what effect, if any, will Victarian's plan to use three separate blowers have.

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17 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Yes, it was blown, but on the Iron Isles, half a word away from the dragons. I can only surmise that the dragons have to actually hear the horn to be bound by it.

And it doesn't matter to Euron if the horn-blower dies, as long as the horn sounds. The wild card in all this is what effect, if any, will Victarian's plan to use three separate blowers have.

Yeah, makes total sense they would have to hear it I suppose. 

Yeah, Euron doesn't care if they horn blower dies. I do wonder why it doesn't have to be the person blowing the horn that gets bound, ya know? Like how does the horn know to bind the dragons to Euron & not the person blowing it? 

Maybe it's because Euron found the horn? 

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On 4/20/2022 at 1:56 PM, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Indeed. It's probably said but how is the horn bound to Euron? You would think the person blowing the horn would be the dragon binder but Euron is pretty confident that's not the case. If it's explained, I don't remember it. 

It’s not explained that I remember, but I mean it’s Euron. He probably takes three years ordering a meal at a restaurant because he needs to do it via weird mysterious signals and devious double talk with plenty of lyrical tangents about the concept of religion or the nature of the human experience or w/e.

I’d file it under ‘stuff Euron picked up in ~ Valyria(?)’, or just assume that he’s kinda making it up as he goes along because he doesn’t really care that much if it works out or tears him into bits of eternal pain, he’s just that much of a dangerous and unpredictable and laughing-at-death kind of guy (but it will probably work out because reasons).

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On 4/21/2022 at 9:47 AM, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Yeah, makes total sense they would have to hear it I suppose. 

Yeah, Euron doesn't care if they horn blower dies. I do wonder why it doesn't have to be the person blowing the horn that gets bound, ya know? Like how does the horn know to bind the dragons to Euron & not the person blowing it? 

Maybe it's because Euron found the horn? 

Trying to figure out how magic works . . . that way madness lies.

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Daenerys is to the Song of Ice and Fire as Aragorn is to the Lord of the Rings.  She will make the decision to go back to Westeros when the time is right.  The right time is when the "sun hides her face" for years and the light switch is flipped across the face of the planet.  She will have to go to the source of the darkness to bring back the light.  She is the personification of the Sun, the Maiden Made of Light.  Bran is the opposing force, the Lord of the Darkness, the Lion of the Night.  The story of the Long Night says the Maiden Made of Light went away.  While away, the Lion of the Night sent his minions to destroy the people.  I submit to you that it really means Bran and the Starks, the darkness in the tale, will use their mind control powers to send the wights to destroy their enemies.  In so doing, they will unintentionally wreak destruction across the face of Westeros.  Bran, Jon, and the Starks are not necessarily evil but they will do this in the name of getting justice for the Stark family.  They will use the darkness to march the wights to the south and bring death to their enemies.  They may lose control of the wights and unleash a deadly wave of zombies.  Daenerys and her followers will come in and save what is left of the country. 

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On 4/22/2022 at 10:05 AM, John Suburbs said:

Trying to figure out how magic works . . . that way madness lies.

Will it not be funny though if Euron thinks he has it figured out & doesn't? Gets someone to blow the horn only to find out now the dragons are bound to them & not him? I would love it. 

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3 hours ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Will it not be funny though if Euron thinks he has it figured out & doesn't? Gets someone to blow the horn only to find out now the dragons are bound to them & not him? I would love it. 

Sure, there's no guarantee this will work, but I can't see any other reason from him to send his brother to Meereen with the means to control dragons -- unless it's that the horn will cause the dragons to go mad and attack him. But if he just wanted to get rid of Vic, there are easier ways to do it than this.

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2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Sure, there's no guarantee this will work, but I can't see any other reason from him to send his brother to Meereen with the means to control dragons -- unless it's that the horn will cause the dragons to go mad and attack him. But if he just wanted to get rid of Vic, there are easier ways to do it than this.

Yeah, I'm saying Euron believes, for whatever reason, that whoever blows the horn it will find the dragons to Euron. I would find it comical if Euron has it wrong & whoever blows the horn gets the dragons bound to them. 

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On 4/23/2022 at 6:59 PM, Wm Portnoy said:

Daenerys is to the Song of Ice and Fire as Aragorn is to the Lord of the Rings.  She will make the decision to go back to Westeros when the time is right.  The right time is when the "sun hides her face" for years and the light switch is flipped across the face of the planet.  She will have to go to the source of the darkness to bring back the light.  She is the personification of the Sun, the Maiden Made of Light.  Bran is the opposing force, the Lord of the Darkness, the Lion of the Night.  The story of the Long Night says the Maiden Made of Light went away.  While away, the Lion of the Night sent his minions to destroy the people.  I submit to you that it really means Bran and the Starks, the darkness in the tale, will use their mind control powers to send the wights to destroy their enemies.  In so doing, they will unintentionally wreak destruction across the face of Westeros.  Bran, Jon, and the Starks are not necessarily evil but they will do this in the name of getting justice for the Stark family.  They will use the darkness to march the wights to the south and bring death to their enemies.  They may lose control of the wights and unleash a deadly wave of zombies.  Daenerys and her followers will come in and save what is left of the country. 

It is also my opinion that Bran will be the big bad guy in this saga.  Affections for Meera, his wanting to walk, and attachments to the Starks will lead him down a very dark path.  

Edited by Putin On The Ritz
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On 4/20/2022 at 2:07 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

I expect that Dany’s time in Meereen will end the same way that most regime-change missions end in the Middle East, with her accepting that she can’t force a foreign people to change their ways and leaving

So you are basically implying that she should have never tried to freed slaves and smash the slavery tread because that is the norm there.I also find it funny how people use Dany's "foreigness" as a way to villainize her : "She is a foreigner to Essos (nevermind she grew there) so she can't abolish slavery!" "She is a foreigner to Westeros (nevermind her family ruled 300 years there and she was born there and is not clueless about it's history) so she can't rule there!" .:lol:

Edited by Oana_Mika
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8 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

So you are basically implying that she should have never tried to freed slaves and smash the slavery tread because that is the norm there.I also find it funny how people use Dany's "foreigness" as a way to villainize her : "She is a foreigner to Essos (nevermind she grew there) so she can't abolish slavery!" "She is a foreigner to Westeros (nevermind her family ruled 300 years there and she was born there and is not clueless about it's history) so she can't rule there!" .:lol:

I didn’t say anything about abolishing slavery. If anything, I expect she’ll probably end up killing many slavers before she leaves. But external regime-change missions don’t work in real life, and I doubt they’ll work in ASOIAF.

The reason why people take issue with Dany’s foreignness is because that’s part of what makes her an imperialist. We overlook it because she’s freeing slaves, but the idea that someone is able to invade a place they’ve never been unprovoked, kill their leaders and install themselves as the head of state is textbook imperialism.

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2 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I didn’t say anything about abolishing slavery. If anything, I expect she’ll probably end up killing many slavers before she leaves. But external regime-change missions don’t work in real life, and I doubt they’ll work in ASOIAF.

The reason why people take issue with Dany’s foreignness is because that’s part of what makes her an imperialist. We overlook it because she’s freeing slaves, but the idea that someone is able to invade a place they’ve never been unprovoked, kill their leaders and install themselves as the head of state is textbook imperialism.

imperialism
/ɪmˈpɪərɪəlɪz(ə)m/
 
 
noun
noun: imperialism
  1. a policy of extending a country's power and influence through colonization, use of military force, or other means.
    "the struggle against imperialism"
     
    What contry does Dany tries to extend it's power?
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2 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:
imperialism
/ɪmˈpɪərɪəlɪz(ə)m/
 
 
noun
noun: imperialism
  1. a policy of extending a country's power and influence through colonization, use of military force, or other means.
    "the struggle against imperialism"
     
    What contry does Dany tries to extend it's power?

Dany has a nomadic horde of followers whom she controls. Unlike in real life, she is able to conquer on her own because she has three fire-breathing dragons that she alone controls, so I don’t think a dictionary definition is applicable here. History would look very different if individual people had magical creature they could bend to their whim. Since they don’t, it’s not a hypothetical that’s ever been seriously considered, and certainly not when updating Webster’s Dictionary.

Her followers may not have a name, but they are absolutely their own coalition, and she is their ruler—rather than a country, she has a cult of personality. And now that includes the Meereenese.

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53 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Dany has a nomadic horde of followers whom she controls. Unlike in real life, she is able to conquer on her own because she has three fire-breathing dragons that she alone controls, so I don’t think a dictionary definition is applicable here. History would look very different if individual people had magical creature they could bend to their whim. Since they don’t, it’s not a hypothetical that’s ever been seriously considered, and certainly not when updating Webster’s Dictionary.

Her followers may not have a name, but they are absolutely their own coalition, and she is their ruler—rather than a country, she has a cult of personality. And now that includes the Meereenese.

So she is an imperialist because people follow her because she freed them?Btw,she only conquered Meereen (without dragons),freed the slaves from Yunaki without dragons and in Astapor they were just a bargain chip. The slaves also participaed actively in their freedom,fighting the masters in all these places.You also overlook the fact that most of the people from Essos are not from there.They were kidnapped and forced to serve and they also very much wish to be free.Also,an imperialist exploits the place's resources for own gain,which Daenerys doesn't.She tried to built and economy not based on slavery and she stayed in Meereen and refused to leave to ensure those she freed are not put back in chains.

Again,funny how she is critcised for staying and ruling and also for leaving Essos to go to Westeros.

Edited by Oana_Mika
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2 hours ago, Putin On The Ritz said:

Affections for Meera, his wanting to walk, and attachments to the Starks will lead him down a very dark path.  

I, for one, need some more explanation here. It isn't immediately obvious why love of one's family would lead you to a dark place or why affection for a girl would lead a boy to an evil path. Bran might become a bad guy, like you say, but there must be something more in his case besides he loves his family, likes a girl, and wishes he could walk.

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