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What will bring Daenerys to Westeros?


Groo
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2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Dany has a nomadic horde of followers whom she controls.

And about this specific line

 

1. They are very capable of individual thinking.That's why the Unsullied chose Grey Worm as their leader,Missandei counsels her,the freedmen who followed her also had a voice in her council (Rylona Rhee) until the Sons of the Harpy murdered her,the slaves from Volantis also are starting to rise againts their masters so they clearly can make their own chioces and the dothraki that followed her (mostly non combatants ; too old,too young or too sick to fight) did that because she proved her strenght by haching the dragons.

2.Your reference as a "horde" to those who follow her reeks xenophobia,as well as racism (dothrakis) because Dany will be landing on the 90% white and "civilised" Westeros with said "barbarian horde".

3.I'm curious if you are also refering to the white wildlings as a horde.

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6 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

2.Your reference as a "horde" to those who follow her reeks xenophobia,as well as racism (dothrakis) because Dany will be landing on the 90% white and "civilised" Westeros with said "barbarid horde".

I think the fictional Dothraki would prefer nomadic horde. It's more intimidating sounding. I doubt the fictional Dothraki would prefer "nomadic bunch" or "wandering peoples" or even just "horse people".

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6 minutes ago, Groo said:

I think the fictional Dothraki would prefer nomadic horde. It's more intimidating sounding. I doubt the fictional Dothraki would prefer "nomadic bunch" or "wandering peoples" or even just "horse people".

Interesting how the term "horde" is only applied to the barbaric dothrakis (by fans and in the books too as a pejorative).

Oh, I also forgot to add FOREIGNER.

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7 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

Interesting how the term "horde" is only applied to the barbaric dothrakis (by fans and in the books too as a pejorative).

Do the characters in the book ever refer to hordes of wildings? I know characters in the show referred to hordes of Dothraki but I don't remember if that was in the books too.

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Just now, Groo said:

Do the characters in the book ever refer to hordes of wildings? I know characters in the show referred to hordes of Dothraki but I don't remember if that was in the books too.

I don't remember in the books the wildlings being referd to as "hordes".I know in the books they are not apreciated by westerosi but I have never seen fans refering to them as such,or "barbaric" (as they also do with the people who follow Dany),only just wildlings.

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6 minutes ago, Groo said:

Do the characters in the book ever refer to hordes of wildings? I know characters in the show referred to hordes of Dothraki but I don't remember if that was in the books too.

And I know that in the books,the term is used to define a vast group of people but I've usually seen people using it to emphasize how uncivilised and savage and uncapable of thinking are those who follow Daenerys.

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3 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

And I know that in the books,the term is used to define a vast group of people but I've usually seen people using it to emphasize how uncivilised and savage and uncapable of thinking are those who follow Daenerys.

It’s definitely used in a negative way, but interestingly I’ve read the term is of nomadic (Turkish) origins that came to English by way of Polish. I think it meant royal group or royal place/camp. 

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7 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

I know in the books they are not apreciated by westerosi but I have never seen fans refering to them as such,or "barbaric" (as they also do with the people who follow Dany),only just wildlings.

It's clear in the books that the North considers wildings to be barbaric. In fact, "wildings" is just their version of "barbarians". The Dothraki are at least referred to be the name they actually call themselves. The North doesn't even acknowledge what the "wildings" call themselves.

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4 minutes ago, Groo said:

It's clear in the books that the North considers wildings to be barbaric. In fact, "wildings" is just their version of "barbarians". The Dothraki are at least referred to be the name they actually call themselves. The North doesn't even acknowledge what the "wildings" call themselves.

I know that in the books the wildlings are also considered savages.I ment that the fans refer to them only as "wildlings" not "barbaric" or "savages" or incapable of individual thinking,as the person who I was discussing thinks of the ones that follow Daenerys.

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53 minutes ago, Oana_Mika said:

And about this specific line

 

1. They are very capable of individual thinking.That's why the Unsullied chose Grey Worm as their leader,Missandei counsels her,the freedmen who followed her also had a voice in her council (Rylona Rhee) until the Sons of the Harpy murdered her,the slaves from Volantis also are starting to rise againts their masters so they clearly can make their own chioces and the dothraki that followed her (mostly non combatants ; too old,too young or too sick to fight) did that because she proved her strenght by haching the dragons.

2.Your reference as a "horde" to those who follow her reeks xenophobia,as well as racism (dothrakis) because Dany will be landing on the 90% white and "civilised" Westeros with said "barbarid horde".

3.I'm curious if you are also refering to the white wildlings as a horde.

The Westerosi are all capable of independent thought as well. They’re still beholden to the Iron Throne.

I called them a “horde” because they’re a nomadic coalition of different groups of people. As you yourself pointed out, they’re not one country or ethnicity. What word would you use to describe them? And I never called them barbarians. 

Accusing a real person of being xenophobic against a fictional group of people is hilarious. You’re just angry that I dared to criticize your favorite character.

 

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3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The Westerosi are all capable of independent thought as well. They’re still beholden to the Iron Throne.

I called them a “horde” because they’re a nomadic coalition of different groups of people. As you yourself pointed out, they’re not one country or ethnicity. What word would you use to describe them? And I never called them barbarians. 

Accusing a real person of being xenophobic against a fictional group of people is hilarious. You’re just angry that I dared to criticize your favorite character.

 

I never implied the westerosi are not capable of individual thinking.I used the quotes for barbarian horde not as quoting you.That was my mistake.It was me saying that was the impresison your comment left me.You could have simply said that Daenerys has a large number of followers,whom she leads.But insead you phrase it as she having a mass of people whom she controls,meaning those who follow her are incapable to make their own decision,that they are brainwashed.Also,let's not pretend that in the fandom,the fact that she and her followers are foreigners is not used in a negative way.

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2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

she has a cult of personality.

A cult of personality, or a cult of the leader,is the result of an effort which is made to create an idealized and heroic image of a leader by a government, often through unquestioning flattery and praise.. Historically, it has developed through techniques of mass media, propaganda, the big lie, fake news, spectacle, the arts, patriotism, and government-organized demonstrations and rallies. A cult of personality is similar to apotheosis, except that it is established by modern social engineering techniques, usually by the state or the party in one-party states and dominant-party states.

 

I must have missed the part where Daenerys doesn't like to be quoestioned,that she only wants to hear flattery and praise and her spreading propaganda.

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1 hour ago, Oana_Mika said:

she having a mass of people whom she controls

This is a structural problem with the novels. Look at the contrast between the presentation of the wildings and Dothraki.

Our first introduction of wildings is Osha. We get time with her as an individual. As the story progresses, we get Castor, Ygritte, Mance, Gilly, etc. We get actual dialog, different personalities, and time spent with each of them as individuals. Even Varamyr Sixskins gets his own POV chapter!

Now let's look at the Dothraki. Sure, we get Drogo as an individual. Who else do we have? Dany has three blood riders, Jhogo, Rakharo, and Aggo. Could you tell them apart? What are their personalities? How are they different? Dany has two handmaidens, Irri and Jhiqui. Are they given much personality beyond the catchphrase "It is known"?

It is difficult to talk about Dothraki as varied individuals because we are given so little to work with. They are seriously underwritten in that regards. The same goes for the peoples of Slavers Bay, both slavers and slaves.

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23 minutes ago, Groo said:

This is a structural problem with the novels. Look at the contrast between the presentation of the wildings and Dothraki.

Our first introduction of wildings is Osha. We get time with her as an individual. As the story progresses, we get Castor, Ygritte, Mance, Gilly, etc. We get actual dialog, different personalities, and time spent with each of them as individuals. Even Varamyr Sixskins gets his own POV chapter!

Now let's look at the Dothraki. Sure, we get Drogo as an individual. Who else do we have? Dany has three blood riders, Jhogo, Rakharo, and Aggo. Could you tell them apart? What are their personalities? How are they different? Dany has two handmaidens, Irri and Jhiqui. Are they given much personality beyond the catchphrase "It is known"?

It is difficult to talk about Dothraki as varied individuals because we are given so little to work with. They are seriously underwritten in that regards. The same goes for the peoples of Slavers Bay, both slavers and slaves.

I agree that Martin did not flesh out the essosi characters as much as the wildlings but still he showed us that they are not just brainwashed people,who have no iniciative.We see the slaves inside those cities helping with Dany's attack in Yunkai and taking Meereen.Also,the Unsullied showting "Dracarys" in Astapor and then chosing their leader,longing for human affection (going to brothels to be held) or just going drinking.We can see them ploting revolts,wanting Dany to help them and so on.They don't just follow Dany because of her carisma.Her only speech is before entering the pyre,liberating those who remaind after Drogo's khalassar left them.Plus,before the birth of the dragons,they were reluctant to follow her and the freedmen followed her bc well,she freed them.They thought they were better with her and she gives her best to protect them.

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1 hour ago, Oana_Mika said:

I never implyed the westerosi are not capable of individual thinking.I used the quotes for barbarian horde not as quoting you.That was my mistake.It was me saying that was the impresison your comment left me.You could have simply said that Daenerys has a large number of followers,whom she leads.But insead you phrase it as she having a mass of people whom she controls,meaning those who follow her are incapable to make their own decision,that they are brainwashed.Also,let's not pretend that in the fandom,the fact that she and her followers are foreigners is not used in a negative way.

Pure ridiculousness. You are imposing what you feel about the word onto someone else's use of it. 

The word literally means a large group of people. Nothing racist or xenophobic, nothing about brainwashing or being incapable of thought. 

I've been around the forums for some time, not as long as some others, but long enough. I've never, one time, seen anyone refer to Dany & her followers being foreigners in a bad way. I've not seen it all, certainly, but this is definitely not the consensus. 

These words are not to be thrown around lightly & at a whim - racism etc.

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1 hour ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Pure ridiculousness. You are imposing what you feel about the word onto someone else's use of it. 

The word literally means a large group of people. Nothing racist or xenophobic, nothing about brainwashing or being incapable of thought. 

I've been around the forums for some time, not as long as some others, but long enough. I've never, one time, seen anyone refer to Dany & her followers being foreigners in a bad way. I've not seen it all, certainly, but this is definitely not the consensus. 

These words are not to be thrown around lightly & at a whim - racism etc.

I also have been in fandom for some time and yes,I've seen many implying that Dany being "foreign" to Essos and Westeros basically doesn't give her the "morality" to end slavery (bc she "is imposing foreign customs on essosi" ---> "I expect that Dany’s time in Meereen will end the same way that most regime-change missions end in the Middle East, with her accepting that she can’t force a foreign people to change their ways and leaving" + "The reason why people take issue with Dany’s foreignness is because that’s part of what makes her an imperialist. We overlook it because she’s freeing slaves, but the idea that someone is able to invade a place they’ve never been unprovoked, kill their leaders and install themselves as the head of state is textbook imperialism" and I've seen many making this false equivalecy of US in Iraq/Afganistan thogh Martin refuted the allegory and imperialism implies having an actuall Empire to fund with the resources of the place you take and Dany literally grew in Essos) and neither the right to retake the throne in the name of her family (bc she was raised in Essos)[email protected] Bard of Banefort might have used the word "horde" to say "a large number of people",but she definitely implied Dany's followers are brainwashed : "she has a cult of personality" (and we know the cult of personality is tied most with fascism,an anachronic term to use in ASoIaF and whoever read Daenerys' chapters in a non biased manner can see she is not a tyrant).And I've also seen people discussing her conquest for the throne (her invasion) in a more negative way than other struggles for said throne bc she comes with dothrakis and unsullied and imagining them wreaking havoc in Westeros (as if it wasn't already wrecked).

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Daenerys will definitely uproot and slaughter any house that fought against Aerys II. This means Houses Lannister, Baratheon, Tully, Arryn, and Stark are on her hit list along with any banner house that fought alongside them during Robert's Rebellion. She needs loyal people in power and she's got enough Essosis who can replace the various uprooted houses.

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1 hour ago, Oana_Mika said:

I also have been in fandom for some time and yes,I've seen many implying that Dany being "foreign" to Essos and Westeros basically doesn't give her the "morality" to end slavery (bc she "is imposing foreign customs on essosi" ---> "I expect that Dany’s time in Meereen will end the same way that most regime-change missions end in the Middle East, with her accepting that she can’t force a foreign people to change their ways and leaving" 

Dany is not a native to Slaver's Bay. She had never even been there before. Are you saying the Astapori didn't see her as a foreigner? Are you saying the Meereenese don't see her as a foreigner? Just saying she grew up in Essos doesn't mean she's a native to every place in the vast continent.

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30 minutes ago, Groo said:

Dany is not a native to Slaver's Bay. She had never even been there before. Are you saying the Astapori didn't see her as a foreigner? Are you saying the Meereenese don't see her as a foreigner? Just saying she grew up in Essos doesn't mean she's a native to every place in the vast continent.

Of course she isn't native to every place in the vast continent of Essos.She grew there,not been born there and yes,she is seen as Westerosi and foreigner in Slaver's Bay by the masters despite her valyrian ancestry but that does not mean it's immoral for her to free slaves.

 

GRRM : “My own heroes are the dreamers, those men and women who tried to make the world a better place than when they found it, whether in small ways or great ones. Some succeeded, some failed, most had mixed results… but it is the effort that’s heroic, as I see it. Win or lose, I admire those who fight the good fight.”     Unless you are a foreigner.Then you can't do anything to make the world a better place because you are imposing different values onto foreign peope I guess.:dunno:

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9 minutes ago, SeanBeanedMeUp said:

Daenerys will definitely uproot and slaughter any house that fought against Aerys II. This means Houses Lannister, Baratheon, Tully, Arryn, and Stark are on her hit list along with any banner house that fought alongside them during Robert's Rebellion. She needs loyal people in power and she's got enough Essosis who can replace the various uprooted houses.

The only people she wanted revenge from are Robert,Tywin,Jaime and Ned and of all those,only Jaime remains alive (at least for now).

 

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