Your Opinions 3: Is GRRM a "bad writer?"

[James Arryn]

13 hours ago, $erPounce said:

George still allows comments on some posts on his NotABlog, as long as they are on-topic (otherwise they will be deleted without mercy). To some of those comments, George still replies. However, I suspect that George often makes it impossible to post comments these days, because it requires a lot of moderation. He knows that he is in for tens to hundreds of completely off-topic replies.

George's Twitter is managed by his "minions". But I would be surprised if George is not kept informed about the responses.

I can well understand why some people are annoyed by the lack of transparency about the situation with The Winds of Winter (the last detailed update was in 2020, after that it was more or less "I'm working on it" with no further details)...  But I have no sympathy for those who continuously spam with complaints about Winds on totally off-topic posts.

I would be very surprised if George is kept informed of any spam and/or any of the kinds of comments he finds annoying/irritating. 

Preston Jacobs, I think, says as far as he can tell GRRM has had virtually no exposure to fan complaints for years now, and so concluded that his ~ ‘sucks to be you’ and ‘questions about Winds are tiresome/wearying/annoying’ comments…this was even before the ‘Psyce!’ post...are either him responding to his own internal expectations that scrapping his explicit and repeated promise to finish Winds before working on other stuff was being tossed out the window will reasonably result in a ton of complaints, or his own ~ guilt at doing so and preemptive annoyance masking that. 

[butterweedstrover]

13 hours ago, $erPounce said:

 

George's Twitter is managed by his "minions". But I would be surprised if George is not kept informed about the responses.

 

Why would they update him on hate spam? 

[The Bard of Banefort]

I wonder if fans send him fanart. I heard he used to share them on his website, so I’m guessing they must.

But then again. . . does George even have public contact info? I’ve never looked, but I imagine probably not.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Scratch that, I guess he does: https://georgerrmartin.com/for-fans/from-fans/

[The Bard of Banefort]

With the exception of Theon and JonCon, ADWD does feel like it’s just spinning it’s wheels. The big three (Jon, Dany, Tyrion) all have 10+ chapters and accomplish very little in that time. Dany sits on a cushion and thinks about how she hates everyone, then finally rides Drogon and decides that she’s done planting trees. Jon starts off trying to figure out what to do with the wildlings and ends trying to figure out what to do with the wildings. Then he dies. Tyrion mopes and drinks. His slavery arc is probably one of the most boring and least impactful arcs in the series—it has no profound effect on his character, and I don’t think he meshed well with either Jorah or Penny. GRRM has done some great odd couple pairings, but this was not one of them.

On a micro level, there’s more of an internal journey: Dany learns that she’d rather burn shit than rule, Jon ignores his own men for a dozen chapters and decides he cares more about his roots as a Stark than his duty, which gets him killed. Tyrion. . . decides he’d like to live, I guess? That what George has said in interviews, anyway. But these all could have been accomplished in half the time. There was way too much bloat in ADWD, which only makes me worried for TWOW.

[Lord Lannister]

29 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Scratch that, I guess he does: https://georgerrmartin.com/for-fans/from-fans/

Makes me wonder why fanart is ok but fanfiction isn't. Shouldn't those artists be stretching their artistic muscles by drawing something original? 

[sifth]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

With the exception of Theon and JonCon, ADWD does feel like it’s just spinning it’s wheels. The big three (Jon, Dany, Tyrion) all have 10+ chapters and accomplish very little in that time. Dany sits on a cushion and thinks about how she hates everyone, then finally rides Drogon and decides that she’s done planting trees. Jon starts off trying to figure out what to do with the wildlings and ends trying to figure out what to do with the wildings. Then he dies. Tyrion mopes and drinks. His slavery arc is probably one of the most boring and least impactful arcs in the series—it has no profound effect on his character, and I don’t think he meshed well with either Jorah or Penny. GRRM has done some great odd couple pairings, but this was not one of them.

On a micro level, there’s more of an internal journey: Dany learns that she’d rather burn shit than rule, Jon ignores his own men for a dozen chapters and decides he cares more about his roots as a Stark than his duty, which gets him killed. Tyrion. . . decides he’d like to live, I guess? That what George has said in interviews, anyway. But these all could have been accomplished in half the time. There was way too much bloat in ADWD, which only makes me worried for TWOW.

It does feel like ADWD does have a lot of spinning wheels. Jon at least has a few decent chapters, like when he kills Janos Slynt. Tyrion and Dany's chapters though, are just the worst. Both have a lot of interesting exposition, but the characters themselves do very little to move things forward. I love Arya's training chapters as well, but they really feel like they are disconnected from the rest of the story.

[The Bard of Banefort]

10 minutes ago, sifth said:

It does feel like ADWD does have a lot of spinning wheels. Jon at least has a few decent chapters, like when he kills Janos Slynt. Tyrion and Dany's chapters though, are just the worst. Both have a lot of interesting exposition, but the characters themselves do very little to move things forward. I love Arya's training characters as well, but they really feel like they are disconnected from the rest of the story.

I’ve seen people theorize that George doesn’t know what to do with the Stark sisters. I reckon that Sansa’s role is to ultimately continue the Stark line (Bran probably can’t have children, Rickon probably won’t reach adulthood, Arya’s story focuses primarily on death, and I doubt someone brought back to life can sire children—that seems like one of the things you lose via resurrection), but I’m not sure if he has an end point for Arya. So in the meantime they’re just doing what they’ve always done—Arya is killing people and Sansa’s getting shuffled around in the marriage game. 

[Jaenara Belarys]

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

Makes me wonder why fanart is ok but fanfiction isn't. Shouldn't those artists be stretching their artistic muscles by drawing something original? 

Indeed. 

The fanfiction thing is something I've never really understood anyway? I've spent a helluva lot of time on those sites, and while some are great (Strangers Again is an amazing story), but it's not like those are "threatening" his works.....mesa Jar Jar Binks is very confused. 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Jon ignores his own men for a dozen chapters and decides he cares more about his roots as a Stark than his duty, which gets him killed. 

Also, doesn't this undermine his arc in ACoK, which is all about learning what it means to be a man of the Night's Watch?

[Ran]

2 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Also, doesn't this undermine his arc in ACoK, which is all about learning what it means to be a man of the Night's Watch?

This is what Jon learned from Qhorin Halfhand:

Quote

"If we are taken, you must yield."
Yield?" He blinked in disbelief. The wildlings did not make captives of the men they called the crows. They killed them, except for . . . "They only spare oathbreakers. Those who join them, like Mance Rayder."
    "And you."
    "No." He shook his head. "Never. I won't."
    "You will. I command it of you."
    "Command it? But . . . " 
    "Our honor means no more than our lives, so long as the realm is safe. Are you a man of the Night's Watch?"

What he learns from Qhorin is that the oaths are all there for the sole purpose of defending the Wall (and by extension the realms of men), and that if you need to violate some parts of your oaths to achieve that, then that's what you do, and on your own head be it.

ADwD really just continues his developing things along this. The tradition of the Watch was absolute opposition to the wildlings, he was told by Marsh that he proposed treason by letting them pass, and yet he did it because it was the only move he could make to preserve the Wall and the realms of men. And so on.

The problem he's faced in his last chapter is that Ramsay is going to attack the Watch if he doesn't get what he wants... and since Jon and the Watch don't actually have the people Ramsay is demanding, that means war is inevitable. Unless they can head it off by, for example, convincing the wildlings to join the war against the Boltons. Pointedly, Jon does not require or even invite others of the Watch to join him. He understands that what he's doing is a violation of some of the oaths of the Night's Watch, but as he learned from Qhorin, if that's what you've got to do to preserve the Wall and the Watch, that's what you do. But he keeps the rest of the Watch out of it.

[sifth]

12 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I’ve seen people theorize that George doesn’t know what to do with the Stark sisters. I reckon that Sansa’s role is to ultimately continue the Stark line (Bran probably can’t have children, Rickon probably won’t reach adulthood, Arya’s story focuses primarily on death, and I doubt someone brought back to life can sire children—that seems like one of the things you lose via resurrection), but I’m not sure if he has an end point for Arya. So in the meantime they’re just doing what they’ve always done—Arya is killing people and Sansa’s getting shuffled around in the marriage game. 

I just have no idea what GRRM is doing with Arya. Is she ever going to be part of the main story again or is she destined to simply tell her own story. If GRRM makes her a part of the main series again, I hope it's done better than the way the tv show did things, which had the Faceless men just allow Arya to walk away from them, despite all she learned.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

@Ran I was under the impression that it was more about the human heart in conflict with itself; Jon thought that he could leave family ties behind, but now that "Arya" is in danger, he realizes that he is unable to, and is torn about it.

[Ran]

4 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

@Ran I was under the impression that it was more about the human heart in conflict with itself; Jon thought that he could leave family ties behind, but now that "Arya" is in danger, he realizes that he is unable to, and is torn about it.

There's certainly a part of the struggle he has. But the fact remains that since they have pretty much none of the people Ramsay wants, Ramsay has threatend to attack the Watch and take them back. Using the wildlings to try and defeat Ramsay will prevent that eventuality. Or, alternatively, the wildlings lose and Jon dies, and maybe Ramsay decides that the Watch does not in fact have those people and leaves them be. Either way, Jon preserves the Watch.

[sifth]

4 minutes ago, Ran said:

There's certainly a part of the struggle he has. But the fact remains that since they have pretty much none of the people Ramsay wants, Ramsay has threatend to attack the Watch and take them back. Using the wildlings to try and defeat Ramsay will prevent that eventuality. Or, alternatively, the wildlings lose and Jon dies, and maybe Ramsay decides that the Watch does not in fact have those people and leaves them be. Either way, Jon preserves the Watch.

Are we just going to ignore the fact that Jon is at least partially responsible for what happened. Listen, I get Jon wanting to save his "sister" from a psycho like Ransay, but he was the one who sent Mance as a spy to try and save her. That is very much risking making the Warden of the North your enemy as Jon found out at the end of the book. I love Jon for what he tried to do, but he very much choose to risk everything in his attempt to save "Arya" and paid for it dearly. I'm not sure what the message GRRM was trying to tell with that story, maybe that we have to harden are hearts, in favor of the greater good. That's the only one I got.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

2 minutes ago, sifth said:

Listen, I get Jon wanting to save his "sister" from a psycho like Ramsay, but he was the one who sent Mance as a spy to try and save her.

It was actually Melisandre's plan, that Jon signed off on, and she isn't the sharpest tool in the box.

[Ran]

6 minutes ago, sifth said:

Are we just going to ignore the fact that Jon is at least partially responsible for what happened.

Of course not. All the more reason that Jon needs to go out and kill or be killed, because staying at the Wall is just going to lead the Watch to get destroyed.

And yeah, Melisandre's plan, based on her mistaken reading of her visions (again):

Quote

A grey girl on a dying horse, fleeing from her marriage. On the strength of those words he had loosed Mance Rayder and six spearwives on the north

That's another one about magic and prophecy screwing you up most of the time. Still, the consequence is what it is, and Jon can either bring the Watch down with him, or he can spare the Watch and maybe pull the situation out of the fire. Qhorin's lesson to him made it very clear which he should pick.

[Hugorfonics]

25 minutes ago, Ran said:

All the more reason that Jon needs to go out and kill or be killed, because staying at the Wall is just going to lead the Watch to get destroyed.

Good.

It's a terrible order and needs radical rearrangements, but in lieu of that it's better to be destroyed then still stand

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

2 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

@Ran I was under the impression that it was more about the human heart in conflict with itself; Jon thought that he could leave family ties behind, but now that "Arya" is in danger, he realizes that he is unable to, and is torn about it.

I agree. Much like how Stannis wants power but tells himself it’s all about duty, I think “protecting the Watch from Ramsay” was just a convenient excuse. Why not man your defenses at the Wall instead? Why not send an envoy from the Watch first? Jon chose the option that would give him the most personal satisfaction. 

On a side note, we’re told that the resurrected are usually fixated on whatever they were last doing before they died (I may be missing some details here). Beric was focused on fighting Lannisters, Cat witnessed her son killed by their supposed allies, etc. Jon was focused on saving Arya. The thing is, neither Arya or fArya are in Westeros right now. So does he spend years searching for someone he can never find?

I also think that the fandom vastly overlooks the possibility that Jon might come back as a cruel and unlikable person. 
 

All things considered, it has been many years since I read ADWD. I was never able to get through a reread of the last book. So maybe I’d have a different opinion if I read it again.

[Groo]

6 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Dany sits on a cushion and thinks about how she hates everyone, then finally rides Drogon and decides that she’s done planting trees. Jon starts off trying to figure out what to do with the wildlings and ends trying to figure out what to do with the wildings. Then he dies. Tyrion mopes and drinks.

That summary of the book is both hilarious and depressingly accurate.