Your Opinions 3: Is GRRM a "bad writer?"

[Lord Lannister]

31 minutes ago, sifth said:

Let's just say he doesn't act his age at all. He acts more like a 6 or 7 year old, not a 3 or 4 year old.

Score another point for @EggBlue and @The Bard of Banefort's longer years theory. 

[The Young Maester]

41 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Oh god, I complete forgot he was 4 (?!?!?!?) 

These ages are way off.

I thought he was 6 this whole time. Tbh I don’t remember anything about the kid. All I remember is him throwing tantrums like a spoiled brat (a smack in the head would do nicely).

[Nevets]

The reason nobody remembers much about Rickon is because he is a pretty minor character.  So, while he could certainly use a couple of more years, it doesn't really effect the story all that much.  Unlike, say, Dany, Arya, Sansa, Jon, Sam, etc., where changing their ages risks changing the story along with it, and where some of their action can be a bit disconcerting, especially in the later books.

[butterweedstrover]

22 minutes ago, Nevets said:

The reason nobody remembers much about Rickon is because he is a pretty minor character.  So, while he could certainly use a couple of more years, it doesn't really effect the story all that much.  Unlike, say, Dany, Arya, Sansa, Jon, Sam, etc., where changing their ages risks changing the story along with it, and where some of their action can be a bit disconcerting, especially in the later books.

Dany, Arya, Sansa, and Jon would all improve from being older. 

Jon is a 14 year old kid treated seriously by adults. This isn't bakugan where children rule the world, this is a supposedly gritty world so make him at least 20. 

Arya is a skilled assassin as a child, make her older. 

Tyrion has an erection watching Sansa's 12 year old body. Either he is a pedophile or she is older.  

Dany is so over sexualized she needs to at least be 17. Starting at 13 is gross.  

However, I don't believe Martin knows what pubescent kids look like. Firstly he has no off-springs himself, and secondly he doesn't spend any time around them. 

Case in point, Sansa. Sansa is 11 when Ned Stark is executed. Her is some fan approved art from that scene which according to Martin is 'book accurate'. 

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/8/87/Ned_Stark's_execution.jpg  

Look at Sansa is the backdrop. That girl is not 11, she looks closer to 21. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

Arya passing as a boy when she’s a teenager still works when you consider that that’s what Alleras is doing right now.

In real life, puberty is the beginning of an awkward phase that lasts into the late-teens. In ASOIAF, puberty is when children spontaneously transform into full grown adults with gorgeous bodies. If anything, the childhood years before puberty are the “awkward” years for a lot of characters (Asha, Arya, etc). That’s what I think fans are missing when they criticize the teen-adult marriages; it isn’t just that kids are forced to grow up fast in this world, it’s that they physically are not like children in the real world. Even the term “child” is used to describe young adults half the time (ex. all the Stark girls). It’s arguably one of the strangest parts of ASOIAF (along with all the incest), but it’s the only way for the story to make sense.

Take Sansa. Virtually every man she meets is instantly taken with her. Yet I don’t think that George is trying to imply that every man in Westeros is secretly a pedophile. The closest is Littlefinger, but his relationship with Sansa would still be predatory no matter what age she is. 

One example of children behaving far above their age is Joffrey Velaryon during the Dance. At age three, he snuck out of his bedchamber without anyone noticing, went down to the courtyard, saw Aemond try to mount Vhagar, immediately understood that he was about to claim Laena’s dragon, marched right up to him and told Aemond off. What three year old is that developed?

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Dany, Arya, Sansa, and Jon would all improve from being older. 

Jon is a 14 year old kid treated seriously by adults. This isn't bakugan where children rule the world, this is a supposedly gritty world so make him at least 20. 

Arya is a skilled assassin as a child, make her older. 

Tyrion has an erection watching Sansa's 12 year old body. Either he is a pedophile or she is older.  

Dany is so over sexualized she needs to at least be 17. Starting at 13 is gross.  

However, I don't believe Martin knows what pubescent kids look like. Firstly he has no off-springs himself, and secondly he doesn't spend any time around them. 

Case in point, Sansa. Sansa is 11 when Ned Stark is executed. Her is some fan approved art from that scene which according to Martin is 'book accurate'. 

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/8/87/Ned_Stark's_execution.jpg  

Look at Sansa is the backdrop. That girl is not 11, she looks closer to 21. 

John and Robb are okay, IMHO.  Ismail I was only 14/15 when he conquered Iran.

Dany?  It’s even more disturbing than that.  She was just under 12 when she arrived at Illyrio’s, and looks younger.  Illyrio, who’s morbidly obese and mid 50’s, wanted to make her his mistress.  Viserys has been molesting her for some time when we first see him groping her (she doesn’t react because she knows better than to anger him).  Later, Jorah is perving over her the whole time.  And, she wins over Drogo by performing “bed tricks” for him.  At 13.

As for Sansa, men lust over her hot 12 year old body.  But, then, men desire Arya when she’s 10/11.  

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

9 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Keep in mind, I don't remember a single line of dialogue from Rickon. 

Technically, he did name his direwolf Shaggydog. 

[sifth]

I still think Robb and Jon should be older. Even Alexander the Great wasn't leading armies and winning battles, until he was at least 20. I know, I know, I'm sure someone can name me a few teenagers who led armies at someone point in history, but it just feels strange to me that Robb, who has no experience at war, is able to do so well against Tywin who is one of the most skilled battle commanders in the series.

[sifth]

6 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Children behaving far above their age is Joffrey Velaryon during the Dance. At age three, he snuck out of his bedchamber without anyone noticing, went down to the courtyard, saw Aemond try to mount Vhagar, immediately understood that he was about to claim Laena’s dragon, marched right up to him and told Aemond off. What three year old is that developed?

Wow, I totally forgot about that one. Yea, GRRM is no expert on children, if he believes they act anything like that.

[Nevets]

8 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Dany, Arya, Sansa, and Jon would all improve from being older. 

Jon is a 14 year old kid treated seriously by adults. This isn't bakugan where children rule the world, this is a supposedly gritty world so make him at least 20. 

Arya is a skilled assassin as a child, make her older. 

Tyrion has an erection watching Sansa's 12 year old body. Either he is a pedophile or she is older.  

Dany is so over sexualized she needs to at least be 17. Starting at 13 is gross.  

However, I don't believe Martin knows what pubescent kids look like. Firstly he has no off-springs himself, and secondly he doesn't spend any time around them. 

Case in point, Sansa. Sansa is 11 when Ned Stark is executed. Her is some fan approved art from that scene which according to Martin is 'book accurate'. 

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/8/87/Ned_Stark's_execution.jpg  

Look at Sansa is the backdrop. That girl is not 11, she looks closer to 21. 

As I said earlier, they could use an extra year or two, but more isn't really warranted. 

Jon taken seriously?  Janos Slynt openly defied him and thought he could do so with impunity.  Allister Thorne is disdainful.  Bowen Marsh disagrees with practically every decision Jon makes.  Stannis’s men regularly insult him.  Given his position, he isn't taken near as seriously as he should be, and his age (17 now, by the way) is probably a big part of that.

Arya isn't an assassin, skilled or otherwise.  Not yet, and probably not ever.  And she is no better at killing people now than when she got to Braavos.  GRRM has compared her to a child soldier, and I think the comparison is apt.  She's become inured to violence and otherwise maligned affected by war.  And she is being thoroughly manipulated by the Faceless Men, a task made easier by her young age.  ,Though an age around 13 would be better. 

Sansa is a month shy of 13, and already well developed.  She is currently passas a year older with no difficulty.  She will likely be attractive to plenty of adult.

Dany would probably be better starting at 15.  But she still acts young, especially in decision making, so making her much older doesn't really work. 

@The Bard of Banefort Arya was no longer posing as a boy at Harrenhal, so it would require a rewrite.  And I doubt she could succeed in posing as a boy.  Too little privacy, and lots of communal facilities, like sleeping areas and baths.  And no Yoren to cover for her and run interference.

[James Arryn]

2 hours ago, sifth said:

I still think Robb and Jon should be older. Even Alexander the Great wasn't leading armies and winning battles, until he was at least 20. I know, I know, I'm sure someone can name me a few teenagers who led armies at someone point in history, but it just feels strange to me that Robb, who has no experience at war, is able to do so well against Tywin who is one of the most skilled battle commanders in the series.

Alexander was actually leading armies and winning battles at 16; indeed, he was regent of Macedon while his father was away at war in Thrace. His first recorded command was against the Maedi, and he was pretty regularly leading armies or administrating the kingdom from that point onward, excepting a 6 month period of exile following a dispute with his father.

edit: to your point, though, the most direct model for Robb (and even more for young Robert Baratheon) was Edward IV who declared himself king and won a series of victories beginning with Mortimer’s cross at 18 following his father’s death at Wakefield. But he had been an independent ruler and been leading men in battle as Earl of March, supporting his father, for a couple of years by that point.

 

second edit: this is just addressing the issue of Robb (and laterally Jon, and ~ mid-teens in general which historically was often ~ adulthood)…there’s no question that the other Stark children (and many others in ASOIAF, particularly Targs) regularly display extraordinary precociousness, often beyond the realms of believability, at very young ages.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

2 hours ago, sifth said:

I still think Robb and Jon should be older. Even Alexander the Great wasn't leading armies and winning battles, until he was at least 20. 

Jon is naturally gifted, though. If someone can do the lord's kiss at 15, they can lead people in battle. 

[Lady Anna]

I always have to age up the characters mentally when I read because otherwise it's either super unrealistic or even weird and disgusting (like you guys have mentioned with Dany for example).

I think 18 should have been the age of adulthood instead of 16. But I'd have Robb and Jon start the books with 17 at least. Same with Dany. Then Sansa with 14 or 15, Arya with 12, Bran with 10 and Rickon with 6.

 

[sifth]

6 minutes ago, Lady Anna said:

I always have to age up the characters mentally when I read because otherwise it's either super unrealistic or even weird and disgusting (like you guys have mentioned with Dany for example).

I think 18 should have been the age of adulthood instead of 16. But I'd have Robb and Jon start the books with 17 at least. Same with Dany. Then Sansa with 14 or 15, Arya with 12, Bran with 10 and Rickon with 6.

 

I have to do the same thing in my minds eye, while reading these books. The kids mental states just don't match what their ages should be. I'm ok with these for the most part, since GRRM clearly has never had any children before and clearly didn't take the time to study any, while writing these books. So he's basically using his best guess work. I really think the lack of the 5 year time skip hurt making any sense out of the children's ages though and their skill sets ever matching up to them.

@butterweedstrover GRRM is insane, if he thinks an 11 year girl looks like what Sansa does in that picture.

[The Bard of Banefort]

The more anguished analyses I read about Dany and Drogo, the more I wish George would just retcon the ages and put us out of our misery.

At the same time, I think the current fandom has become a bit too literal with how it interprets the text. To keep using Dany/Drogo as an example, many people are hyper-focused on the technicalities of their relationship—the age gap, whether Drogo should have asked permission every time they had sex, etc. By doing this, they’re overlooking all the thematic developments, like how Dany has the gravitas to command respect from a much older khal, how becoming a Khaleesi allows her to gain confidence and assert herself, and so forth. When Jaime mocks Brienne, the takeaway isn’t that Jaime is mean and therefore toxic for Brienne, it’s that his hardships have made him a guarded and cynical person, and Brienne helps his start to make his way back from that (metaphorical) place. I feel like when I first started reading the books around 2014, there were a lot more literary analyses of characters and themes. Now it’s all about what George’s intentions were and whether or not that makes him problematic 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

On 4/28/2022 at 12:25 AM, EggBlue said:

And I'm gonna bring forward my and (I think)Bard's favorite theory: years are longer than  365 days in world of ice and fire.

Yeah, if this theory isn't canon, it definitely should be. I think it would fix a lot of issues.

[Groo]

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I feel like when I first started reading the books around 2014, there were a lot more literary analyses of characters and themes. Now it’s all about what George’s intentions were and whether or not that makes him problematic 

I remember one extended discussion not too long ago about gender roles and gender relations in the books. One poster actually said we can't say Ned and Cat have a good marriage because of the inherent power imbalance between them. I can only assume the person who wrote that has never been married and doesn't know what it looks like when two people actually love and respect each other. That post also ignored the actual story. With one important exception, the story gives us every indication that Cat was happy with her marriage and her family. That exception had nothing to do with Ned being a powerful lord and everything to do with Ned having brought a bastard baby back to Winterfell.

[Lord Lannister]

16 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Yeah, if this theory isn't canon, it definitely should be. I think it would fix a lot of issues.

The concept intrigues me. I'd like to see the full theory laid out for discussion and analysis with it's own thread at some point. 

[Lord Lannister]

18 hours ago, sifth said:

GRRM is insane, if he thinks an 11 year girl looks like what Sansa does in that picture.

I don't think it's reasonable to say just because GRRM likes a piece of fanart that means it's a canonical image. 

[Ran]

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

I don't think it's reasonable to say just because GRRM likes a piece of fanart that means it's a canonical image. 

Indeed. GRRM gives artists lots and lots of leeway to depict characters as they see fit. That depiction, by Magali Villeneuve, is one of many different depictions that have been commissioned as part of official ASoIaF artwork. Consider this piece which GRRM also approved. 

There is no real "canon artwork". There's just artwork, as GRRM allows artists to take creative license.