Lord Lannister Posted April 30, 2022 Share Posted April 30, 2022 34 minutes ago, EggBlue said: I mean .. 50 guards sound a LOT, when you consider the fact that the legal heir of Casterly Rock traveled with a cook and a guard to the end of the world and back In Tywin's eyes the most useful thing Tyrion could've done was get himself killed and give him an excuse to press a political agenda. Tywin probably only begrudgingly provided the cook and guard because it got Tyrion out of his sight. Jaime and Cersei having hundreds of Lannister guards in King's Landing makes more sense. Jaime's his real heir and Cersei having a personal force loyal to her only advances Lannister influence in King's Landing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted April 30, 2022 Share Posted April 30, 2022 1 hour ago, sifth said: It does feel weird that Ned has much fewer men in his service than most of the other great lords. 9 hours ago, Ran said: Winterfell is big but also rather empty, as the abandoned and ruined towers and keeps should suggest. Ned's running a kingdom the size of the other six even if less densely populated. Winterfell would have just more than men at arms. Any credible nation would have scribes, administrators, tax collectors, people overseeing commerce and agriculture, diplomats or some other civil oversight over the regional lords. All these people would have at least modest house holds and servants of their own. All these people would need feeding, arming and so forth so you have cooks, farmers, smiths, more than just one. Winterfell should be bustling, not abandoned and falling apart. It does seem a valid criticism that the Starks seem understaffed for narrative reasons than actual reasons that make sense in it's own world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevets Posted April 30, 2022 Share Posted April 30, 2022 Ned needs a large staff to do what, exactly? The economic base is mostly subsistence and local-use agriculture, plus some timber, mining, fishing, and the like. That needs minimal oversight. The land itself is mostly empty; not a whole lot of people. Most of what needs doing is done by his vassals, who, with a couple exceptions, e.g., Boltons, are reliable and trustworthy. He obviously has to run Winterfell and it's environs, but that shouldn't take lots of staff. We know he traveled regularly to visit his vassals, showing the flag, so to say. Probably helped him keep an eye on things as well. And how would he finance lots of men? His tax base is shit. He probably can't afford a huge staff or large numbers of armsmen, and doesn't really need them. As for taking 50 men to Kings Landing, he had no expectation of trouble, there or back home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted April 30, 2022 Share Posted April 30, 2022 45 minutes ago, Nevets said: And how would he finance lots of men? His tax base is shit. He probably can't afford a huge staff or large numbers of armsmen, and doesn't really need them. As for taking 50 men to Kings Landing, he had no expectation of trouble, there or back home. He's the kings hand, the second most important and powerful person in the kingdom. You'd think he'd take for than 50 men just to protect his daughters alone, not to mention himself. The fact that he doesn't have a bodyguard for Sansa and Arya sort of bothers me as well, particularly Sansa, since she's the future queen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Young Maester Posted April 30, 2022 Share Posted April 30, 2022 23 minutes ago, Nevets said: Ned needs a large staff to do what, exactly? The economic base is mostly subsistence and local-use agriculture, plus some timber, mining, fishing, and the like. That needs minimal oversight. The land itself is mostly empty; not a whole lot of people. Most of what needs doing is done by his vassals, who, with a couple exceptions, e.g., Boltons, are reliable and trustworthy. He obviously has to run Winterfell and it's environs, but that shouldn't take lots of staff. We know he traveled regularly to visit his vassals, showing the flag, so to say. Probably helped him keep an eye on things as well. Even 8th century England had more administrators and general staff for the running of a kingdom. And that time period is what I call peak dark ages. Neds own demesnes are the size of scotland (I reckon its slightly bigger). This land needs tax collectors and administrators that work with Ned at winterfell. Ned dosent even have a treasurer. 24 minutes ago, Nevets said: And how would he finance lots of men? His tax base is shit. He probably can't afford a huge staff or large numbers of armsmen, and doesn't really need them. I very much doubt the kings of winter could hold their vassals in bay with such meagre wealth. 35 minutes ago, Nevets said: As for taking 50 men to Kings Landing, he had no expectation of trouble, there or back home. He was told his foster father was murdered by the very same family that has the court filled with Lannister men. He was already aware how much the lannisters have sunk their claws on Robert when he made Jaime warden of the east. 50 men for 3 highly important highborns is not enough when your moving to a place where you plan to live for the next couple years. Maths don’t make sense. Divide those guards into 3 and you have around 15-16 guards per stark (lets not forget Brandon was due to go). A lord in his castle always has enough men to guard his family, patrol his borders, and keep the castle well garrisoned even if he his whole family leaves to a feast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugorfonics Posted April 30, 2022 Share Posted April 30, 2022 1 hour ago, sifth said: Well I wonder how short staffed Casterly Rock and High Garden will be, when we eventually see them. The Lannisters and Tyrell's certainly took more than 50 men with them to court. I suppose only time will tell. Everything about the Tyrells is super fucked. There army isn't at home or in the field but in KL harassing the Sparrow, while their navy is on the other side of the continent. Eurons going to have an easier time then Balon did. Thornes took her guards back home though so there's some staff present. Red cloaks aren't easy to find these days either, certainly less then when Joffrey ascended Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted May 1, 2022 Share Posted May 1, 2022 2 hours ago, Lord Lannister said: Ned's running a kingdom the size of the other six even if less densely populated. Winterfell would have just more than men at arms. Any credible nation would have scribes, administrators, tax collectors, people overseeing commerce and agriculture, diplomats or some other civil oversight over the regional lords. All these people would have at least modest house holds and servants of their own. All these people would need feeding, arming and so forth so you have cooks, farmers, smiths, more than just one. Winterfell should be bustling, not abandoned and falling apart. It does seem a valid criticism that the Starks seem understaffed for narrative reasons than actual reasons that make sense in it's own world. Not to mention surprisingly vulnerable to a sudden attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takiedevushkikakzvezdy Posted May 1, 2022 Share Posted May 1, 2022 12 hours ago, EggBlue said: I mean .. 50 guards sound a LOT, when you consider the fact that the legal heir of Casterly Rock traveled with a cook and a guard to the end of the world and back Ned didn't realize that all you need is 20 good men. If only one of his bannermen had a bastard who could tell him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Arryn Posted May 1, 2022 Share Posted May 1, 2022 14 hours ago, Lord Lannister said: In Tywin's eyes the most useful thing Tyrion could've done was get himself killed and give him an excuse to press a political agenda. Tywin probably only begrudgingly provided the cook and guard because it got Tyrion out of his sight. Jaime and Cersei having hundreds of Lannister guards in King's Landing makes more sense. Jaime's his real heir and Cersei having a personal force loyal to her only advances Lannister influence in King's Landing. Yeah, in addition, while possibly the general public assumed Tyrion was the heir the CR, there seems no doubt that Tywin didn’t for one second agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted May 1, 2022 Share Posted May 1, 2022 13 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said: Ned didn't realize that all you need is 20 good men. If only one of his bannermen had a bastard who could tell him. Bronn only needed 10. And some climbing spikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takiedevushkikakzvezdy Posted May 2, 2022 Share Posted May 2, 2022 58 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said: Bronn only needed 10. And some climbing spikes. I assume you mean Theon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted May 2, 2022 Share Posted May 2, 2022 2 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said: I assume you mean Theon? I was referring to a line from Bronn in the show where he boasts he could take the Eyrie with 10 men and some climbing spikes. But as far as Winterfell is concerned, I am indeed referring to Theon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted May 2, 2022 Share Posted May 2, 2022 So if it snows in the summer time in the North, how do any major crops grow. It just feels rather strange to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Eyes Posted May 2, 2022 Share Posted May 2, 2022 1 hour ago, sifth said: So if it snows in the summer time in the North, how do any major crops grow. It just feels rather strange to me. Maybe it doesn't snow all the time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sifth Posted May 2, 2022 Share Posted May 2, 2022 28 minutes ago, Angel Eyes said: Maybe it doesn't snow all the time? I mean if it snows 4 seasons a decade, that's a lot of snow, lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EggBlue Posted May 2, 2022 Share Posted May 2, 2022 don't overthink it all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takiedevushkikakzvezdy Posted May 2, 2022 Share Posted May 2, 2022 On 5/1/2022 at 12:25 AM, Lord Lannister said: In Tywin's eyes the most useful thing Tyrion could've done was get himself killed and give him an excuse to press a political agenda. Tywin probably only begrudgingly provided the cook and guard because it got Tyrion out of his sight. Why did Tywin make Tyrion acting hand, then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Lannister Posted May 2, 2022 Share Posted May 2, 2022 3 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said: Why did Tywin make Tyrion acting hand, then? Tywin had just lost his "real" son and Cersei was screwing up and had no control over the situation in King's Landing. I think only in that moment of grief was he able to see past his own biases in Tyrion and accept that he had no other options since he had to stay in the field. Certainly when the situation stabilized Tywin was quick to yank that away from him along with any credit and glory Tyrion won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Sword Posted May 2, 2022 Share Posted May 2, 2022 On 4/25/2022 at 4:12 AM, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said: Funny enough, The Expanse was written by two of GRRM's closest friends. The Expanse was amazing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted May 2, 2022 Share Posted May 2, 2022 Do you guys feel that Martin changed the tune, not so much the core, of the relationship between Jon and Cat as time went on? In the first book their relationship feels incredibly abrassive and like Cat's going out of their way to hurt him. Yet as one book follows another, Jon is simply resentful that Cat never accepted him as her son and tried to get him out of Winterfell. Do you feel this was because he wanted to make it clear Cat wasn't an abuser? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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