Your Opinions 3: Is GRRM a "bad writer?"

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

4 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Tywin had just lost his "real" son and Cersei was screwing up and had no control over the situation in King's Landing. I think only in that moment of grief was he able to see past his own biases in Tyrion and accept that he had no other options since he had to stay in the field.

Certainly when the situation stabilized Tywin was quick to yank that away from him along with any credit and glory Tyrion won. 

Yeah, but going from wanting Tyrion dead to making him Hand is a pretty big U-turn. Why not appoint Kevan, for example?

[sifth]

1 minute ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Yeah, but going from wanting Tyrion dead to making him Hand is a pretty big U-turn. Why not appoint Kevan, for example?

Not to mention shortly before making Tyrion Hand of the King, he had Tyrion placed in the most dangerous part of a battle, with undisciplined soldiers. Now I'm not saying Tywin wanted his son do die in that battle, but he certainly put him in the place where it was most likely to happen.

[Lord Lannister]

2 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Yeah, but going from wanting Tyrion dead to making him Hand is a pretty big U-turn. Why not appoint Kevan, for example?

Kevan was his right hand man, and Tyrion himself said Kevan didn't have a thought in his head that Tywin hadn't already put there. Tywin wanted someone who was flexible and could think on their feet.

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Lord Lannister said:

Kevan was his right hand man, and Tyrion himself said Kevan didn't have a thought in his head that Tywin hadn't already put there. Tywin wanted someone who was flexible and could think on their feet.

I don’t know, Kevan made a pretty good regent, for the small amount of time he was in power.

[The Bard of Banefort]

5 hours ago, frenin said:

Do you guys feel that Martin changed the tune, not so much the core, of the relationship between Jon and Cat as time went on? In the first book their relationship feels incredibly abrassive and like Cat's going out of their way to hurt him. Yet as one book follows another, Jon is simply resentful that Cat never accepted him as her son and tried to get him out of Winterfell.

Do you feel this was because he wanted to make it clear Cat wasn't an abuser?

Not only that, but GRRM also never shows us any relationships between bastards and their stepmothers unless it’s significantly worse than how Cat treated Jon (ex. Falia Flowers was made a servant). He seemed taken aback by just how put off readers were by Catelyn, and this is damage control.

[sifth]

15 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Not only that, but GRRM also never shows us any relationships between bastards and their stepmothers unless it’s significantly worse than how Cat treated Jon (ex. Falia Flowers was made a servant). He seemed taken aback by just how put off readers were by Catelyn, and this is damage control.

I mean all of the bastards in Dorne are treated very well. Ellaria might not exactly be a step mother, but she comes pretty close and she treats all of Oberyn's daughters with kindness and respect, even the ones that came from different women.

[frenin]

5 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Not only that, but GRRM also never shows us any relationships between bastards and their stepmothers unless it’s significantly worse than how Cat treated Jon (ex. Falia Flowers was made a servant). He seemed taken aback by just how put off readers were by Catelyn, and this is damage control.

Tbf, I don't really think that would change much overall, Cat shouldn't be expected to be nice to Jon if his own presence affects her so much just because other women in her position may have warmed to the bastards. Not that i think of Falia Flowers when i think of cinderella stepmothers, but on the nice treatment Cersei professed or threatened to profess to her husband's bastards.

I have always and will always firmly defend that Cat didn't abuse Jon, not only because that's clearly the author's intent all along and because the context surrounding their relationship past book 1 is just, as cruel as it sounds, Jon having huge mommy issues and Cat simply refusing to give in. Still the difference in treatment and the such after book 1 does sound a lot like damage control.

[James Arryn]

9 hours ago, sifth said:

I don’t know, Kevan made a pretty good regent, for the small amount of time he was in power.

Whether he would have been as independently competent while Tywin was alive is another matter. A lot of people who willingly live in someone’s shadow are only able to shine when that shadow is gone, and moreover he is clearly motivated by trying to preserve what Tywin built and mitigate the damage to same Tywin’s children wrought at least in part out of a deeply felt sense of grief and anger at his passing.

[sifth]

3 hours ago, frenin said:

I have always and will always firmly defend that Cat didn't abuse Jon, not only because that's clearly the author's intent all along and because the context surrounding their relationship past book 1 is just, as cruel as it sounds, Jon having huge mommy issues and Cat simply refusing to give in. Still the difference in treatment and the such after book 1 does sound a lot like damage control.

She did not physically abuse him, but she certainly psychologically did and for Theon as well. Making the two of them very uncomfortable and making sure they always felt like outsiders and making them feel lesser than her own children when she was around. I get why she did it, she's written as a flawed character, same with most of GRRM's characters, but it in no way can be used as an excuse for her actions either. 

To be honest, I sort of hate the "wicked step parent" trope. It's not an easy job and a lot of step parents I've met in my line of work have been pretty decent people.

[James Arryn]

2 hours ago, frenin said:

Tbf, I don't really think that would change much overall, Cat shouldn't be expected to be nice to Jon if his own presence affects her so much just because other women in her position may have warmed to the bastards.

There’s a world of difference between not being nice and not blaming a child since ~ birth for the actions of his father. Her anger was with Ned, her choice was to direct it at a helpless and blameless child. And we hold other characters to account for their prejudices and bigotries even when those were common for the period in question, we can’t pick and choose as it suits our sympathies. 

[frenin]

28 minutes ago, sifth said:

but she certainly psychologically did and for Theon as well.

She did not, being cold to someone is not the same as abusing them. If Cat had always had her book 1 interactions with either of them. That would be another matter.

 

30 minutes ago, sifth said:

they always felt like outsiders and making them feel lesser than her own children when she was around.

They didn't need Cat for that, one is a bastard and the other is a hostage. They were lesser than her own children. The only difference there is that Cat was cold and distant to them but that creates a duty in Cat that simply isn't there. 

 

 

15 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

There’s a world of difference between not being nice and not blaming a child since ~ birth for the actions of his father. Her anger was with Ned, her choice was to direct it at a helpless and blameless child. And we hold other characters to account for their prejudices and bigotries even when those were common for the period in question, we can’t pick and choose as it suits our sympathies. 

I didn't say that her treatment was fair or rational. I said that Cat isn't and shouldn't be obligated to be warm towards Jon even if other wives in her position eventually warmed to their spouse's bastards.

 

35 minutes ago, sifth said:

To be honest, I sort of get hate the "wicked step parent" trope. It's not an easy job and a lot of step parents I've met in my line of work have been pretty decent people.

I've met half and half. People imo tend to be a lot better when they can choose but i've known a lot of people from arranged marriages that felt trapped.

 

On another note, I wonder how people would react when some of the prophecies turned out unreliable. I wonder if people will go at Martin because it, he's been warning readers about the unreliability of prophecies and magic for a while now and i've seen that a lot of fans are simply choosing to ignore the warnings One of the go to defenses about prophecy is the fact that the Targs saved themselves due to one, that belief obviously ignore that many Targs have killed themselves and their kin because of prophecy ever since.

[sifth]

11 minutes ago, frenin said:

She did not, being cold to someone is not the same as abusing them. If Cat had always had her book 1 interactions with either of them. That would be another matter.

You clearly don't work with children if you believe that to be true. If you make someone feel like they don't belong and are lesser than others, for their entire childhood, you can screw them up in all sorts of ways psychologically. This is why I always make sure I tell my students and my kids that "I'm proud of them" as much as possible and try to fill their little minds with as much positive motivation as possible.

 

[James Arryn]

15 minutes ago, frenin said:

 

I didn't say that her treatment was fair or rational. I said that Cat isn't and shouldn't be obligated to be warm towards Jon even if other wives in her position eventually warmed to their spouse's bastards.

I agree, her only obligation towards Jon was that of an adult towards a blameless child, and slightly more as Lady of Winterfell he falls under her general care. She had no obligation to treat Jon as her child. A kinder person might, however. 
 

edit: Cat makes MANY mistakes, but her treatment of Jon is imo her only act of ‘evil/malice/villain’ in the life of an otherwise ~ kind and considerate person. 
 

edit: I suppose her final act as ‘Cat’ might also qualify, but whether she was in her right mind at the time can be considered in question. 

[sifth]

7 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

I agree, her only obligation towards Jon was that of an adult towards a blameless child, and slightly more as Lady of Winterfell he falls under her general care. She had no obligation to treat Jon as her child. A kinder person might, however. 
 

edit: Cat makes MANY mistakes, but her treatment of Jon is imo her only act of ‘evil/malice/villain’ in the life of an otherwise ~ kind and considerate person. 

I'm much the same, I love the character and love reading her chapters. Her mistreatment of Jon is her flaw and I'm fine with it, because characters without flaws are boring and uninteresting. I mean you just need to look at the kindness she shows to Brienne, if you don't believe she's a good person.

[EggBlue]

10 minutes ago, frenin said:

I didn't say that her treatment was fair or rational. I said that Cat isn't and shouldn't be obligated to be warm towards Jon even if other wives in her position eventually warmed to their spouse's bastards.

 

I've met half and half. People imo tend to be a lot better when they can choose but i've known a lot of people from arranged marriages that felt trapped.

I agree with this part . in my opinion, Cat cannot be expected to behave rationally because she didn't choose to marry a man who had a bastard , she didn't even choose to marry that man . she had a baby with someone she had slept with a couple of times and was tied to for the rest of her life , then went to a foreign country just to see he already has another son with another woman who must be raised alongside her own son. obviously she couldn't be angry with Ned for long if she ever wished to have a happy marriage , so , she reserved it all for poor Jon. that is not to say her behavior wasn't immoral or that she didn't affect Jon in the worst way possible (she certainly has ) . but it's just an unfortunate situation all over that you can't pick someone to blame. 

10 minutes ago, frenin said:

 

On another note, I wonder how people would react when some of the prophecies turned out unreliable. I wonder if people will go at Martin because it, he's been warning readers about the unreliability of prophecies and magic for a while now and i've seen that a lot of fans are simply choosing to ignore the warnings One of the go to defenses about prophecy is the fact that the Targs saved themselves due to one, that belief obviously ignore that many Targs have killed themselves and their kin because of prophecy ever since.

I'm expecting all the prophecies somehow come true but in a completely twisted way that (hopefully) we cannot even imagine  we've been warned not to trust prophecies or not to expect meddling would prevent them , but we are not told they don't have truth in them  

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

12 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

Kevan was his right hand man, and Tyrion himself said Kevan didn't have a thought in his head that Tywin hadn't already put there.

Wouldn't that be even better for Tywin, though.

[sifth]

1 hour ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Wouldn't that be even better for Tywin, though.

Yea, it's basically out right saying the two men think alike. You'd think he'd be the perfect man Tywin would want in his place.

[frenin]

2 hours ago, sifth said:

You clearly don't work with children if you believe that to be true. If you make someone feel like they don't belong and are lesser than others, for their entire childhood, you can screw them up in all sorts of ways psychologically. This is why I always make sure I tell my students and my kids that "I'm proud of them" as much as possible and try to fill their little minds with as much positive motivation as possible.

Those are completely  different aguments tho, Cat's coldness being mentally scarring to Jon=/ Cat actually abusing Jon.

Jon was a presence that deeply disturbed Cat and affected her, trying to avoid Jon was in that context necessary for both, it would do no any good if Cat was constantly clashing with Jon. And this must be addressed but Cat has absolutely no responsibility whatsoever towards Jon, regardless of what Jon or the fans longed in Cat. You as a teacher have way more responsibility legally and morally over your children that Cat ever had towards Jon.

Jon's also a bastard growing up among his trueborn siblings. He's by definition lesser than his siblings and is treated accordingly.

My point is not to actually discuss the abuse but whether if some people felt like me that Martin pulled a turn on their relationship. 

 

2 hours ago, James Arryn said:

I agree, her only obligation towards Jon was that of an adult towards a blameless child, and slightly more as Lady of Winterfell he falls under her general care. She had no obligation to treat Jon as her child. A kinder person might, however. 

I very much doubt that a kinder person may have if they elt so hurt by Jon's presence as she did.

 

 

2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

but we are not told they don't have truth in them  

Everyone finds their own truth in prophecies and visions. The ultimate placebo effect.

[sifth]

34 minutes ago, frenin said:

Those are completely  different aguments tho, Cat's coldness being mentally scarring to Jon=/ Cat actually abusing Jon.

Jon was a presence that deeply disturbed Cat and affected her, trying to avoid Jon was in that context necessary for both, it would do no any good if Cat was constantly clashing with Jon. And this must be addressed but Cat has absolutely no responsibility whatsoever towards Jon, regardless of what Jon or the fans longed in Cat. You as a teacher have way more responsibility legally and morally over your children that Cat ever had towards Jon.

Jon's also a bastard growing up among his trueborn siblings. He's by definition lesser than his siblings and is treated accordingly.

My point is not to actually discuss the abuse but whether if some people felt like me that Martin pulled a turn on their relationship. 

 

I very much doubt that a kinder person may have if they elt so hurt by Jon's presence as she did.

 

 

Everyone finds their own truth in prophecies and visions. The ultimate placebo effect.

Dude, all you're doing is what Harry Potter fans do, when they defend Snape and his treatment of Harry and Herione and that's defending a bully. There's nothing wrong with liking the character of Cat, as stated above, I like her a lot as well and her chapters are some of the best, but her treatment of Jon is no different than that of an adult bullying children, such as Snape did in the Harry Potter books. We might come to see why she did what she did and find it tragic, but it should never be used as an excuse for the action.

I'm sorry, but if you actively go out of your way to mistreat kids, you are in the wrong in my book and yea, that goes for both physically and emotionally.

[James Arryn]

12 minutes ago, frenin said:

I very much doubt that a kinder person may have if they elt so hurt by Jon's presence as she did.

I don’t see how you think this. People across many times and cultures have raised children from their spouses infidelity with great kindness because they rightfully place whatever blame they ascribe to their unfaithful adult spouse. A child is a child is a child.  People kindly raise children whose presence hurts them all the time, including their own. Tywin and Tyrion are another example of an adult blaming an innocent child for the pain he feels about an adult, in this case the absence of the wife he loved. There are ranges. But some people are kind enough to see beyond their own adult pain to the emotional needs of an innocent child. 
 

Think Lady Patience in the Farseer trilogy for a literary example. I am not saying we can expect such kindness from Cat, but it’s well within her capacity if she’s kind enough. Obviously if she had done that we would think of her as a kinder person.