Your Opinions 3: Is GRRM a "bad writer?"

[Lord Lannister]

15 hours ago, EggBlue said:

I agree with this part . in my opinion, Cat cannot be expected to behave rationally because she didn't choose to marry a man who had a bastard , she didn't even choose to marry that man . she had a baby with someone she had slept with a couple of times and was tied to for the rest of her life , then went to a foreign country just to see he already has another son with another woman who must be raised alongside her own son. obviously she couldn't be angry with Ned for long if she ever wished to have a happy marriage , so , she reserved it all for poor Jon. that is not to say her behavior wasn't immoral or that she didn't affect Jon in the worst way possible (she certainly has ) . but it's just an unfortunate situation all over that you can't pick someone to blame. 

I don't know, I always thought it was pretty rotten and even cowardly of Cat the way she treated Jon. I don't blame her a bit about being upset about the situation. It's how she expressed it that I always took issue with. She would've had a legitimate gripe with Ned, who supposedly cheated on her. Instead she compartmentalized those feelings, had no problem being lovey dovey to Ned and venting her anger at the situation at the one person who was innocent, vulnerable to such attacks and couldn't fight back. 

[Lord Lannister]

36 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I would actually say that Tywin’s most redeeming quality was how he took care of and looked after his siblings since childhood. Did all of his siblings live at Casterly Rock as adults, even Genna?

I mean, Walder Frey took care of his family. I think he did it for the same reason as Tywin. To have people under his influence he can use. I wouldn't exactly call either a redeeming feature.

[frenin]

5 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Yes, and they labeled him a traitor and cut his head off anyway

What has that to do with anything?

 

5 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

It's not about Robb. It's about the baby. He didn't choose Jeynes honor, he chose Jeynes child's honor.

At any point does he say that. He does say that he would be dishonoring Jeyne, he doesn't even know Jeyne would get pregnant.

 

 

5 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

I don't think so. Giving birth to a kings son did good for all these ladies. Back in the Dragonstone days it was like, super honorable.

Dragonstone was influenced by the Targs for centuries.

[SeanF]

10 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

There is no relationship afterwards, they're worlds apart, but the feelings hasn't changed at all. In fact the scarring that Jon grew up with was one of the deciding factors why he shouldn't sleep with Ygritte, even if it meant his death. Similarly Robb was probably scarred too and his reluctance to father a bastard cost him his life and kingdom.

Speaking of Robb, him and his mom had a falling out that was never amended because of Cats feelings for Jon, later Brynden accusers Jaime of being in bed with Jon because that's what Cat though.

What a ridiculous argument! No offense intended here, but this line of thought is straight from the Kremlin. The only one responsible for the lunatics actions is the lunatic

Jon is the rightful king of all these scrubs. His head is worth more to Robert then a truck full of Dothraki fetus', Ned's nephews life is guilty since birth, any man would keep him safe, doubly with a dying sisters promise

If she was ghiscsri it'd be normal to cut his testicles off

Since Ned was not going to be trying to make Jon king (and that would endanger Sansa, and any children she had by Joffrey, as well as Jon) he owed it to both Lyanna and Jon to give him a decent future.

A good parent, who knew that the Wall is a penal colony (and Ned must know that it is) would warn off any boy against going there.    It is not a place of safety.  At its best, it’s like a penal battalion of the Red Army.

A good parent would have ensured that Jon had prospects.  As a multi-millionaire, Ned could have done this.

[SeanF]

3 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

I mean, Walder Frey took care of his family. I think he did it for the same reason as Tywin. To have people under his influence he can use. I wouldn't exactly call either a redeeming feature.

Evil people have loved ones.

Walder was actually a good parent.  That doesn’t outweigh his crimes.

[frenin]

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

A good parent, who knew that the Wall is a penal colony (and Ned must know that it is) would warn off any boy against going there.    It is not a place of safety.  At its best, it’s like a penal battalion of the Red Army.

We're told that northerners view the Wall as a place of honor, Ned was one of the such. His own baby brother served there, why his nephew wouldn't? Ned's issue wasn't so much that the Wall is a shithole but that Jon was still too young to be there and they still solved by telling him (iirc) that he could return.

It's not like Jon wasn't warned anyway. He could have chosen to return, he was the only one in the Wall who had options when he arrived, no one forced him to wear the black.

 

 

2 hours ago, SeanF said:

A good parent would have ensured that Jon had prospects.  As a multi-millionaire, Ned could have done this

Well yeah but the Wall is a prospect.  One that btw solved Ned and Cat too many problems at the same time. 

 

I think that after the royalist's defeat, the wall was the safest outcome for all Rhaegar's children. They can't bother anyone there and they can't no longer compromise the new regime and the Starks were at the front of that one.

 

 

[Hugorfonics]

4 hours ago, SeanF said:

Since Ned was not going to be trying to make Jon king (and that would endanger Sansa, and any children she had by Joffrey, as well as Jon) he owed it to both Lyanna and Jon to give him a decent future.

Didn't want to endanger Sansa huh? 

Decent future is in the eyes of the beholder. Hot Pie for example thought he finally made it under the goat of Harrenhal. I bet if we asked Jon where he wants to be it'd be in a cave with his tongue knee deep in some W.A.P (wildling ass pussy)

4 hours ago, SeanF said:

A good parent, who knew that the Wall is a penal colony (and Ned must know that it is) would warn off any boy against going there.    It is not a place of safety.  At its best, it’s like a penal battalion of the Red Army.

Ned was not a good parent, he gave his baby to Joffrey.

4 hours ago, SeanF said:

A good parent would have ensured that Jon had prospects.  As a multi-millionaire, Ned could have done this.

It's a tough situation no doubt, as Doran says "they always talk", putting Jon as minor cog in the game of thrones can end badly for Lyannas promise.

In lieu of Jon continuing to live at home (thanks Cat) he could have used his warrior skills as a sellsword or he could have done one of the numerous jobs Ned doesn't suggest for Arya

1 hour ago, frenin said:

We're told that northerners view the Wall as a place of honor

Jon was told that. Along with Bran and Arya (presumably the others too), it's a white lie that sounds better then your uncle will never see the light of freedom

[frenin]

37 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Jon was told that. Along with Bran and Arya (presumably the others too), it's a white lie that sounds better then your uncle will never see the light of freedom

It's not like their uncle didn't have prospects, he chose to go there because ge believed it an honor. Whether the northerners are believing obvious bullshit it's a tale for another day.

[Hugorfonics]

24 minutes ago, frenin said:

It's not like their uncle didn't have prospects, he chose to go there because ge believed it an honor. 

That's bullshit. Seriously, citation?

[Nevets]

About the Nights Watch.  

1.  For nobility, it is not necessarily all that bad a place.  While hardly luxurious, the living conditions for them don't seem too horrible.  It appears most of them become officers of some sort, hence the decent conditions, plus they have some authority and responsibility.   For a surplus or bastard son of a noble family without other obvious prospects, it's a reasonable option.

2.  By the time he committed himself to the Nights Watch, Jon knew exactly what he was getting into.  He had spent several weeks there.  Until he took the oath, he was free to leave, and even considered doing so.  He may have gone there blind, cut by the time he actually joined, his eyes were wide open. 

As for Catelyn. She mainly ignored Jon.  She is under no obligation to treat him as family and didn't.  But she wasn't gratuitously mean to him either.  She didn't belittle him, tease him, harangue him,yell at him, or obviously mistreat him.  She just ignored him.  I attribute the "It should have been you " comment to the stress of Bran's condition. 

And it isn't like they are in a two room apartment; they live in a castle- a very large castle, with a commensurate sized staff.   They don't have to interact much, and she has her own children to raise, and seems to have been pretty hands-on there, with the possible exception of Robb.  If you were expecting her to treat Jon with love and affection, you evidently missed the fact that "Saint" isn't part of her description. 

[LynnS]

This scene between Jon and Cat was pretty awful.  It's the only time Cat has ever called Jon by his name:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon II

"I prayed for it," she said dully. "He was my special boy. I went to the sept and prayed seven times to the seven faces of god that Ned would change his mind and leave him here with me. Sometimes prayers are answered."

Jon did not know what to say. "It wasn't your fault," he managed after an awkward silence.

Her eyes found him. They were full of poison. "I need none of your absolution, bastard."

Jon lowered his eyes. She was cradling one of Bran's hands. He took the other, squeezed it. Fingers like the bones of birds. "Good-bye," he said.

He was at the door when she called out to him. "Jon," she said. He should have kept going, but she had never called him by his name before. He turned to find her looking at his face, as if she were seeing it for the first time.

"Yes?" he said.

"It should have been you," she told him. Then she turned back to Bran and began to weep, her whole body shaking with the sobs. Jon had never seen her cry before.

She didn't just ignore him, she refused to acknowledge his presence or even say his name. You have to wonder if she has ever spoken directly to him before.

Ned's assessment of her feelings about Jon are summed up when he confronts Cersei about her children: 

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Eddard XII

"No less do I love mine."

Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon's life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.

 

[SeanF]

10 minutes ago, Nevets said:

About the Nights Watch.  

1.  For nobility, it is not necessarily all that bad a place.  While hardly luxurious, the living conditions for them don't seem too horrible.  It appears most of them become officers of some sort, hence the decent conditions, plus they have some authority and responsibility.   For a surplus or bastard son of a noble family without other obvious prospects, it's a reasonable option.

2.  By the time he committed himself to the Nights Watch, Jon knew exactly what he was getting into.  He had spent several weeks there.  Until he took the oath, he was free to leave, and even considered doing so.  He may have gone there blind, cut by the time he actually joined, his eyes were wide open. 

As for Catelyn. She mainly ignored Jon.  She is under no obligation to treat him as family and didn't.  But she wasn't gratuitously mean to him either.  She didn't belittle him, tease him, harangue him,yell at him, or obviously mistreat him.  She just ignored him.  I attribute the "It should have been you " comment to the stress of Bran's condition. 

And it isn't like they are in a two room apartment; they live in a castle- a very large castle, with a commensurate sized staff.   They don't have to interact much, and she has her own children to raise, and seems to have been pretty hands-on there, with the possible exception of Robb.  If you were expecting her to treat Jon with love and affection, you evidently missed the fact that "Saint" isn't part of her description. 

Jon does not have a lot of options, at that point. As far as he knows, Cat is still in charge at Winterfell.  And she is not having him back. 

Afterwards, when he learns of Robb, he attempts to desert.  No doubt, Robb would have welcomed him, and given him some command, but he'd essentially be living off Robb's charity.

The Nights Watch is basically a suspended death sentence.

[frenin]

58 minutes ago, LynnS said:

She didn't just ignore him, she refused to acknowledge his presence or even say his name. You have to wonder if she has ever spoken directly to him before.

 

That's ignoring someone.

Quote

Definition of ignore

 

transitive verb

1: to refuse to take notice of

2: to reject (a bill of indictment) as ungrounded

Other Words from ignore

And they obviously had talked before and it was obviously non pleasant. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

That's bullshit. Seriously, citation?

Do you think he was forced to go or to stay?

 

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Ned's assessment of her feelings about Jon are summed up when he confronts Cersei about her children: 

I'm sorry but that assestment has nothing to do with what Cat felt towards Jon, just a statement of a fact that both Ned and Cat would likely kill children to protect their own children.

 

 

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Jon does not have a lot of options, at that point. As far as he knows, Cat is still in charge at Winterfell.  And she is not having him back. 

It's not like there weren't a lot of other nobles to go to. 

 

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

Afterwards, when he learns of Robb, he attempts to desert.  No doubt, Robb would have welcomed him, and given him some command, but he'd essentially be living off Robb's charity.

That's the fate of any second son, bastard or not. All of Robb's brothers would be living off his mercy, Tywin's brothers do the same. It sucks. Still no one forced Jon to join the Watch.

 

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

The Nights Watch is basically a suspended death sentence.

Not for northerners or for some southron houses like the Royces.

[LynnS]

8 minutes ago, frenin said:

That's ignoring someone.

Of course, but she takes it to the extreme.  She doesn't use his name or address him at all.

[frenin]

4 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Of course, but she takes it to the extreme.  She doesn't use his name or address him at all.

Well yeah, Jon's very own presence is painful and humiliating to her. One would assume that she would try to keep their interactions as minimun, short and emotionally distant as possible. That's how you get to think of someone as an stranger.

It's the same reason why Stannis stopped saying Edric's name once he was resolving killing him for cool dragons and Davos kept saying his name. It's difficult to emotionally detach yourself.

[LynnS]

10 minutes ago, frenin said:

Well yeah, Jon's very own presence is painful and humiliating to her. One would assume that she would try to keep their interactions as minimun, short and emotionally distant as possible. That's how you get to think of someone as an stranger.

It's the same reason why Stannis stopped saying Edric's name once he was resolving killing him for cool dragons and Davos kept saying his name. It's difficult to emotionally detach yourself.

It's quite a contrast from the love she has for her own children and the poison she feels for Jon.  She has absolutely no love or sympathy for him.  A heart of stone is an apt description.  He's not family, she has no duty towards him and her honor has been stained.  If he was a threat to her own children in any way; Ned prays he never knows what she would do about it.

[The Young Maester]

Can we agree tho that catelyn took out her resentment of neds betrayal on a child that had nothing to do with it.

Cats biggest problem with Jon is that he is evidence that Ned loved jons mysterious mother enough that he would raise his bastard alongside his trueborn children. Other lords dont really do that.

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, frenin said:

Do you think he was forced to go or to stay?

Definitely the latter, almost definitely the former too

[alienarea]

Why didn't Ned leave Jon in Dorne in the first place?

 

Either this was the promise he made to Lyanna or Jon never was in Dorne to begin with.

[frenin]

8 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Why didn't Ned leave Jon in Dorne in the first place?

He wanted his nephew with him...