Your Opinions 3: Is GRRM a "bad writer?"

[James Arryn]

25 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

One critique I think you could make about the depiction of sexual assault is that GRRM’s justification is that “that’s what war is like.” The thing is, men also get raped during war, and they certainly get raped in prison—and what is the Night’s Watch, if not a frozen prison? Now, I’m not saying that I want to read about men getting raped—I don’t—but GRRM’s dedication to “realism” definitely has a gender bias.

I am still grateful that he hasn’t depicted any assaults on-page though. I mentioned this way back in the first thread, but one of the reasons I haven’t read/watched Outlander is because of all the rape.

Oddly enough, if there’s a gender bias there it’s the other way, at least in the first book.

I read the first one but got bored of Fifty Shades of Tartan mostly because the main characters are pretty much perfect Mary Sues, partly because an improbable number of people are attractive and attracted to the main couple, but mostly because what I thought would be an adventurous historical fiction turned out to be mostly about sex. Good sex, great sex, rape sex, angry sex, manipulative sex, etc. 

[SeanF]

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

One critique I think you could make about the depiction of sexual assault is that GRRM’s justification is that “that’s what war is like.” The thing is, men also get raped during war, and they certainly get raped in prison—and what is the Night’s Watch, if not a frozen prison? Now, I’m not saying that I want to read about men getting raped—I don’t—but GRRM’s dedication to “realism” definitely has a gender bias.

I am still grateful that he hasn’t depicted any assaults on-page though. I mentioned this way back in the first thread, but one of the reasons I haven’t read/watched Outlander is because of all the rape.

I think that depends a lot on culture.  M/M rape was very common in war in the ancient world and in modern Africa, but almost unheard of in former Yugoslavia.

The Ironborn do use captive Maester “as a woman.”

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

11 hours ago, James Arryn said:

My favourite character is probably Jaime, a guy in love with his sister, an absent father to his children/nephews/niece, walking around with a golden hand and a horse called honour. Give me that in cliff notes and I’m like nah. But he made it work, somehow.

But Jaime is a very grey character, and Cersei is outright villainous. Their relationship is described as an abomination by everyone except themselves. This Jon/Arya romance was apparently something the readers were supposed to sympathize with and root for. I can tolerate a lot in fiction, but that would have been too much for me.

[LynnS]

I'm most horrified by the characters that go beyond being merely icky.  Just when you think it can't get any worse, it does. He's only getting started with Euron. Horror on a scale that I couldn't imagine in GoT.  You have to read this stuff through the cracks of your fingers.

[SeanF]

27 minutes ago, LynnS said:

I'm most horrified by the characters that go beyond being merely icky.  Just when you think it can't get any worse, it does. He's only getting started with Euron. Horror on a scale that I couldn't imagine in GoT.  You have to read this stuff through the cracks of your fingers.

I think Martin enjoys plumbing the depths of human nature.  I think the single worst thing is Chiswick’s jolly tale of gang-raping a young girl and casually murdering her brother.

[Nevets]

6 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

One critique I think you could make about the depiction of sexual assault is that GRRM’s justification is that “that’s what war is like.” The thing is, men also get raped during war, and they certainly get raped in prison—and what is the Night’s Watch, if not a frozen prison? Now, I’m not saying that I want to read about men getting raped—I don’t—but GRRM’s dedication to “realism” definitely has a gender bias.

I am still grateful that he hasn’t depicted any assaults on-page though. I mentioned this way back in the first thread, but one of the reasons I haven’t read/watched Outlander is because of all the rape.

I have noticed that the sellsword companies in the Riverlands, in ACOK in particular, have a certain Balkan militia vibe to them.  And the early books would have been written during or just after that conflict. Rapes during that conflict were widely reported on at the time and as someone else noted, the victims were mainly women.  Same with the Soviets in WWII.

With respect to the Nights Watch, that may be why trips to Moles Town are tolerated.  Give the men a sexual outlet.

[SeanF]

47 minutes ago, Nevets said:

I have noticed that the sellsword companies in the Riverlands, in ACOK in particular, have a certain Balkan militia vibe to them.  And the early books would have been written during or just after that conflict. Rapes during that conflict were widely reported on at the time and as someone else noted, the victims were mainly women.  Same with the Soviets in WWII.

With respect to the Nights Watch, that may be why trips to Moles Town are tolerated.  Give the men a sexual outlet.

To me, the Brave Companions, and the companies led by Ser Gregor and Ser Amory most resemble SS Sturmbrigade Dirlewanger, or the Ustasha, groups for whom war was simply an excuse for murder, rape, torture, and pillage.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

16 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Now if only he’d re-write the sex scenes. . .

You didn't like the scene where Sam tastes Gilly's sweet milk?

[The Young Maester]

One thing I noticed is how we never witness a council of balon and his lords. Like every king held a council early in the war e.g. renly, stannis, robb. But With Balon we never witness it.

Imagine if we did witness a council through theons pov. Too many would be asking about why should they settle for the woods of deepwood motte when they can instead go for the gold of lannisport. Or why travel hundreds of miles through cold winds to the north when the empty undefended westerlands is right next door.

Or maybe the young wolfs aunt decides to join the war and she offers him her fleet at gulltown so she can ferry his troops to the north.

So many questions that the other lords wouldve asked had we witnessed this council.

[James Arryn]

9 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

One thing I noticed is how we never witness a council of balon and his lords. Like every king held a council early in the war e.g. renly, stannis, robb. But With Balon we never witness it.

Imagine if we did witness a council through theons pov. Too many would be asking about why should they settle for the woods of deepwood motte when they can instead go for the gold of lannisport. Or why travel hundreds of miles through cold winds to the north when the empty undefended westerlands is right next door.

Or maybe the young wolfs aunt decides to join the war and she offers him her fleet at gulltown so she can ferry his troops to the north.

So many questions that the other lords wouldve asked had we witnessed this council.

The impression I got was that the decisions, and possibly council, had already been made by the time Theon arrived. Seeing it would have spoiled the surprise. Or it could just be an indication that Balon doesn’t really consult, which would fit his personality/might be an IB thing. We don’t see Euron do it either, do we?

[The Young Maester]

1 minute ago, James Arryn said:

The impression I got was that the decisions, and possibly council, had already been made by the time Theon arrived. Seeing it would have spoiled the surprise. Or it could just be an induction that Balon doesn’t really consult, which would fit his personality/might be an IB thing. We don’t see Euron do it either, do we?

But that’s what I mean. The whole point of povs is that we get to witness important political choices. But we never witness this council with the ironborn. It shows that grrm thought of it but realised that if they did hold a council it would make invading the north unrealistic.

To me ironborn seem like a very independent culture. The captains are the kings of their own ships. And seen by the kings moot, these captains and lords need to be sold on the idea of a wars objective.

[James Arryn]

6 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

But that’s what I mean. The whole point of povs is that we get to witness important political choices. But we never witness this council with the ironborn. It shows that grrm thought of it but realised that if they did hold a council it would make invading the north unrealistic.

To me ironborn seem like a very independent culture. The captains are the kings of their own ships. And seen by the kings moot, these captains and lords need to be sold on the idea of a wars objective.

The kingsmoot might certainly give that impression. And I agree the culture is pretty decentralized and the kingship seems to have historically passed through more hands (houses) than the other Westeros high kings. 

Otoh, it was just revived and has mostly been just primo for a while, and absent the Theon complications might have been again. In addition, some political systems have highly contested/inclusive means of deciding on a ruler but that ruler then gets pretty absolute power, especially in matters of war. See Imperial Presidency. 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

On 4/19/2022 at 1:20 AM, sifth said:

I was in the process of making a point about how impossible it seems for me, to finish this story in just two novels, when the last thread was locked.

For what it's worth, GRRM insisted as late as 2019 or thereabout that he is still planning to finish it in two books.  

[sifth]

11 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

For what it's worth, GRRM insisted as late as 2019 or thereabout that he is still planning to finish it in two books.  

Yea, but the more I think about it, the more impossible it seems. You have The Nights Watch and the mess "killing" Jon has caused, The Others, Stannis vs the Baltons, Meereen, Euron and the Iron Born, Sam/Old Town, Arya/Bravos, Cersei/Kings Landing, Sansa/The Vale, Areo Hotah and the hunt for everyone's favorite character, Jamie and Brienne/ The Riverlands, and lord knows what's going to happen to Theon and Asha. This leaves plenty of space for a plot about a fake Targ trying to take over the country. How all of this gets resolved in just two books is something beyond my understanding.

I mean I feel like Dany and all the characters at Meereen will eat up at least 25% of the next book, if not more.

[Angel Eyes]

1 hour ago, sifth said:

Yea, but the more I think about it, the more impossible it seems. You have The Nights Watch and the mess "killing" Jon has caused, The Others, Stannis vs the Baltons, Meereen, Euron and the Iron Born, Sam/Old Town, Arya/Bravos, Cersei/Kings Landing, Sansa/The Vale, Areo Hotah and the hunt for everyone's favorite character, Jamie and Brienne/ The Riverlands, and lord knows what's going to happen to Theon and Asha. This leaves plenty of space for a plot about a fake Targ trying to take over the country. How all of this gets resolved in just two books is something beyond my understanding.

I mean I feel like Dany and all the characters at Meereen will eat up at least 25% of the next book, if not more.

Don't forget a possible plague accompanying the fake Targ.

[The Bard of Banefort]

Since this thread is about George as a writer. . . I’m feeling very uneasy after that latest blog post. Maybe George gets a lot of angry emails and is trying to troll those people (although I’m not sure how—does he really have a public email address or mailing address?) but it is starting to feel like he has real contempt for his fanbase. As someone who has always admired him and found him likable, this bothers me. I realize that he’s under a lot of pressure, but he doesn’t have to make himself accessible to strangers if it’s become that much of a burden. Plenty of authors don’t.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Since this thread is about George as a writer. . . I’m feeling very uneasy after that latest blog post. Maybe George gets a lot of angry emails and is trying to troll those people (although I’m not sure how—does he really have a public email address or mailing address?) but it is starting to feel like he has real contempt for his fanbase. As someone who has always admired him and found him likable, this bothers me. I realize that he’s under a lot of pressure, but he doesn’t have to make himself accessible to strangers if it’s become that much of a burden. Plenty of authors don’t.

Maybe he feels that people who are harrassing him are the majority in his fandom?

[The Bard of Banefort]

3 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Maybe he feels that people who are harrassing him are the majority in his fandom?

He should know better than that. All the people attending his conventions and book signings, all the fan girls writing him about their favorite ships, all the artists drawing his characters for fun, etc. Way more people love him than don’t.

[Seams]

On 4/20/2022 at 6:20 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

... it is starting to feel like he has real contempt for his fanbase.

I'm sure he does not have contempt for his fanbase. The joke about "Winds" was just a joke, not intended to insult anyone; just observing that his tv project shares a key word with his book project. I'm sure he didn't intend to hurt anyone's feelings. As Ran pointed out, the context of the joke made it clear that he was referring to the tv show (about a Native American sheriff) featured in the link, not to the much-anticipated ASOIAF book. 

If GRRM had contempt for his fanbase, he would stop writing ASOIAF altogether. He would probably also shut down his blog, stop giving interviews and shun all conventions. 

When this forum or other fan outlets react with shock and dismay to a lighthearted remark, it probably does start to put a strain on fan - author relations. I'm not singling you out, but I think we just need to focus for the time being on the many books GRRM has given us to discuss. "Winds" will be in our hands eventually.

[The Bard of Banefort]

2 minutes ago, Seams said:

I'm sure he does not have contempt for his fanbase. The joke about "Winds" was just a joke, not intended to insult anyone; just observing that his tv project shares a key word with his book project. I'm sure he didn't intend to hurt anyone's feelings. As Ran pointed out, the context of the joke made it clear that he was referring to the tv show (about a Native American sheriff) featured in the link, not to the much-anticipated ASOIAF book. 

If GRRM had contempt for his fanbase, he would stop writing ASOIAF altogether. He would probably also shut down his blog, stop giving interviews and shun all conventions. 

When this forum or other fan outlets react with shock and dismay to a lighthearted remark, it probably does start to put a strain on fan - author relations. I'm not singling you out, but I think we just need to focus for the time being on the many books GRRM has given us to discuss. "Winds" will be in our hands eventually.

It’s not just this though. He wrote another dismissive blog post a few weeks ago. And he’s made it pretty clear that he’s tired of being asked about TWOW, so trolling his readers about the release date is a bit hypocritical.

As for author-fan relations, I don’t see how fans not taking well to his jokes somehow hurts the franchise. Fan spaces exist solely for fans. George himself has said he doesn’t read the forums. No one should be sending the author rude emails or house calls, but I see no reason why fans can’t speak both positively and negatively among ourselves. I hate this idea that it’s somehow the fans’ fault that the books aren’t done. How much more supportive can we possibly be than to keep buying his products and discuss his work endlessly online, a full decade after the last book came out?