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Your Opinions 3: Is GRRM a "bad writer?"


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37 minutes ago, alienarea said:

Rhaegar didappears with Lyanna, Robert claims he raped her a thousand times, then Ned returns from Dorne with Lyanna's bones and a baby and nobody can add things up, though it is known Rhaegar returned to die at the Trident from Dorne with a Dornish army. 

 

 

Ned had a reputation of being a very honest man and it's not like these people have twitter or wiki, to keep track of every major event. Varys would be the only character in universe, who I can even imagine figuring it out.

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7 minutes ago, sifth said:

Ned had a reputation of being a very honest man and it's not like these people have twitter or wiki, to keep track of every major event. Varys would be the only character in universe, who I can even imagine figuring it out.

Ned was a 17 yr old , how much of a reputation can he have? besides, he also had a reputation of not sleeping around when he was a horny un-attached teenager , yet , everyone believes he's got a baby when he's married in Dorne of all places?  

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The more I think about it, the more I think GRRM went too far with Jeyne Poole. It’s extremely grimdark, and I’m old enough now to know that “dark and gritty” isn’t always better. So much of the press around ASOIAF focused on how “brutal and realistic” it is and claimed that was what makes it so good, but I actually think it’s the opposite. George’s romanticism is what makes the story worth pursuing. Very few people want to read pure misery porn.

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16 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

Ned was a 17 yr old , how much of a reputation can he have? besides, he also had a reputation of not sleeping around when he was a horny un-attached teenager , yet , everyone believes he's got a baby when he's married in Dorne of all places?  

I mean that only makes it seem more believable now that you bring up his age. Even the most honorable person will still get turned on by something, when he/she is a teenager. Plus bastards are a rather common thing in this universe.

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26 minutes ago, sifth said:

I mean that only makes it seem more believable now that you bring up his age. Even the most honorable person will still get turned on by something, when he/she is a teenager. Plus bastards are a rather common thing in this universe.

yeah , I actually thought of that as writing!! but according to Robert, Ned wasn't a boy even when he was a boy . the man had every opportunity to get laid in Vale without being worried about his "honor" . then , right when he gets married , he dishonors himself, his wife and some other girl?

anyways , in my opinion the Dorne part makes less sense than Ned having a bastard in general. I mean , the war wasn't in Dorne , when did he get together with some common girl in Dorne to get her pregnant?! Ashara makes the most sense as Ned's lover in that case( as in getting pregnant before war) , but Robert ,whose belief here matters to us the most , thinks Ned had a child with Wylla and brought her child back from Dorne just in the same time as Lyanna?! 

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45 minutes ago, sifth said:

I mean that only makes it seem more believable now that you bring up his age. Even the most honorable person will still get turned on by something when he/she is a teenager.

But Ned's whole character is that he doesn't act on his urges, which makes him the polar opposite of Robert, for example. Their personalities compliment each other in that way.

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18 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

yeah , I actually thought of that as writing!! but according to Robert, Ned wasn't a boy even when he was a boy . the man had every opportunity to get laid in Vale without being worried about his "honor" . then , right when he gets married , he dishonors himself, his wife and some other girl?

anyways , in my opinion the Dorne part makes less sense than Ned having a bastard in general. I mean , the war wasn't in Dorne , when did he get together with some common girl in Dorne to get her pregnant?! Ashara makes the most sense as Ned's lover in that case( as in getting pregnant before war) , but Robert ,whose belief here matters to us the most , thinks Ned had a child with Wylla and brought her child back from Dorne just in the same time as Lyanna?! 

Yea, but Robert wasn't always the brightest bulb in the box. I mean this is the same guy that had no idea he didn't have sex with his wife once for nearly 15 years, let alone that his wife was sleeping with her brother for that same amount of time. 

Edited by sifth
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1 minute ago, sifth said:

Yea, but Robert wasn't always the brightest bulb in the box. I mean this the same guy that had no idea that he didn't have sex with his wife once for nearly 15 years, let alone that his wife was sleeping with her brother for that same amount of time. 

give the man some credit! he wasn't an alcoholic depressed guy all his life

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1 minute ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

But Ned's whole character is that he doesn't act on his urges, which makes him the polar opposite of Robert, for example. Their personalities compliment each other in that way.

Yea, but the guy is also a second son and not a person a whole lot of people paid attention to, until Brandon and his father died and he became the ruler of the North. So aside from Robert and John Arryn, not a whole lot of people knew Ned before the war.

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It's worth noting that not that many readers figured out Jon's parentage on their own (I certainly didn't).  And we have a lot more information than any characters do.

Plus there are enough red herrings around (e.g., Ashara, Wylla) to muddy the waters.  And Ned taking responsibility, with the attendant embarrassment and marital strife, further discourages speculation. 

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2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

It was not considered normal or healthy. Such an age was not socially acceptable, an that is why such cases are infamous. 

Indeed. Apparently the internal damage was so bad that she never had another kid. 

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9 minutes ago, Nevets said:

And Ned taking responsibility, with the attendant embarrassment and marital strife, further discourages speculation. 

In the beginning I'm sure Ned didn't tell Cat because he hardly knew her. I always assumed he never told her later because he eventually realized that her clear ongoing anger at Jon was the best cover possible for making Jon really look like his bastard.

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2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The more I think about it, the more I think GRRM went too far with Jeyne Poole. It’s extremely grimdark, and I’m old enough now to know that “dark and gritty” isn’t always better. So much of the press around ASOIAF focused on how “brutal and realistic” it is and claimed that was what makes it so good, but I actually think it’s the opposite. George’s romanticism is what makes the story worth pursuing. Very few people want to read pure misery porn.

Well, GRRM has said that it would be "dishonest" to write a story about war without showing the full brutality of it. I don't think he intends to back down from that.

Edited by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy
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2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

 Very few people want to read pure misery porn.

Misery porn, lol. That's what this is though, that's asoiaf. I mean that's the entertainment I think most people are in to. It's why Romeo and Juliet don't live happily ever after, and why the entire play actually is pretty depressing too

Adwd is my favorite book, hands down. Sold millions. (I think) That's because of Theon. And to a slightly lesser extent Ramsay and Jeyne. GRRMs misery porn is sublimely well written, no one can come close to the sick fucking mind that created Ramsay Bolton and I love him for it. 

 

And Ramsays not the main character, so we see good guys like Jon and Dany or guys trying to be good like Tyrion and Bran, so it's spread out enough that Jeynes depressants don't dominate the whole story. (Even though every character is our own miserable pornstar)

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2 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Well, GRRM has said that it would be "dishonest" to write a story about war without showing the full brutality of it. I don't think he intends to back down from that.

Would you have liked to see Jon raped by his brothers in black as an initiation into the lives of cut throats forced to live in celibacy at the wall? Or would that have ruined the mood of the story? 

Brutality is half and half. Dany is depicted as this beautiful female of supreme genetic perfection brought low while Jon is the scrappy bastard who is secretly a prince. 

Rape and Brutality fit Dany's trope so it is there. Rape and Brutality is not a fit for Jon so it is mysteriously absent. Instead we get Harry Potter level bullies like Alliser Thorne and the assortment of school boy fantasies like the crazy hot wildling girl (Ygritte) and the wise mentor who always has his best interests in mind (Aemon), and the best friends who have his back through thick and thin (Pyp and Gren). As well as the fat nerdy friend who lets him look perfect by comparison (Sam).  

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7 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

I wouldn’t say the series is realistic, more gritty than realistic. We can ignore what Martin says because he has been factually wrong many times. 
For example, 14 year olds were not considered of breeding age in the middle age. 
 

My issue is with the inequality of the grit. Woman will get raped all the time, but a group of male criminals with no women somehow does not lead to male on male rape. 
 

Dany is a target for rape, but not Jon. Part me thinks it is because Martin sexualizes Dany but considers Jon more of a self-insert fantasy (which why as a virgin he does great at oral sex).

There have been several male rape victims in ASOIAF. The IB gang rape Maester Kerwin, it is heavily suggested Euron raped several of his younger brothers, Septon Utt both rapes boys and then murders them, etc. Furthermore women are available to the NW, and despite that Craester implies it’s not an unusual occurrence within the NW. 

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7 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

 

It was not considered normal or healthy. Such an age was not socially acceptable, and that is why such cases are infamous. 
 

http://francislovell.blogspot.com/2019/11/joan-beaumont-margaret-beaufort-and.html?m=1

The point is not that we know it was considered abnormal or unhealthy; we have no such evidence. Marriage consummation was considered appropriate at the onset of puberty, which varied, but was generally considered to approximate the legally allowed ages of consent. Beyond that we can guess, but there isn’t much evidence of it being considered socially unacceptable if it fit the 2 criteria, namely legal age and puberty. 

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