How come the Lord of Harrenhal is not as wealthy as it should be and as powerful (military, economically and possibly political)?

[Alex13]

From what i have seen and from what i remember, the Lord of Harrenhal, doesn't seem as wealthy and powerful as he could be. 

It's mentioned that the Lord of Harrenhal commands vast tracts of fertile land and that at a stroke of the pen/quill, a newly named Lord of Harrenhal would become one of the wealthiest and powerful lords of Westeros. And if the lands are as vast and fertile as it is mentioned, then the lands should also house a sizable population, which would also translate into a large (3000-5000) army/levy at the disposal of the Lord. But none of these things are mentioned. 

And it's pretty central location, would also give it ample opportunities to become a commerce and trading hub. It's close to or on the king's road and i think that it's a few days ride or a weeks ride from King's Landing and it is also close to the Crossroads of the the Trident and where the King's Road, the River Road and the road leading to the Vale meet. Not to mention, the God's Lake has a river running from it to the Blackwater Rush, on which products could easily and cheaply be shipped to King's Landing. 

Are these things not mentioned and is the Lord of Harrenhal actually poor or struggling due to the fact that he needs to invest a large portion of his income into maintaining Harrenhal, thus not allowing him to gather wealth and to maintain a large army? 

Or did George not fully develop the lordship of Harrenhal, it's lands and it's economy and simply stated that Harrenhal is the largest castle in the Seven Kingdoms, the Hoare's died there and that the castle is cursed? 

And if Harrenhal were a smaller castle, but still command it's current lands/territory, how wealthy and powerful (military, economically and political) would the Lord of Harrenhal be? 

[John Suburbs]

There's nothing to say that they weren't wealthy and powerful. The title of lord paramount went to the Tullys at Riverrun, however, so everyone who took Harrenhal remained vassals, but on the top tier of vassals.

Lucas Harroway was a Hand of the King, and his daughter Alys was queen, although it didn't end well for them when Alys birthed a deformity. The Harroways were deposed and some of their lands were split between Darry and Butterwell.

Later, Lord Lyonel Strong became Hand, replacing Otto Hightower no less. Lord Larys sat on the green council as master of whispers and Lord Confessor.

Lucas Lothson was also Hand.

Oswell Whent was a member of the Kingsguard.

So the holders of Harrenhal have received a fair amount of royal honors over the years, which wouldn't happen if they were considered of lowly status.

 

 

[Moiraine Sedai]

The castle is a money pit. Costly to maintain. The surrounding lands are fertile but requires good management. Perhaps the lords who had the lands were not good in business. Unlike Walder Frey. 

[James Arryn]

I think it used to be. But as the Whents sided with the Targs, Robert stripped them of a lot of their lands but left the title. Harrenhall being so vast turns from advantage to albatross when you don’t have the land-income to support it.  

[HoodedCrow]

I did a short tour of the Loire river valley. The guide noted that there was one castle that was large and drafty…and given as a punishment White Elephant. On the other hand, queens fought over Chenonceau, which is a tiny castle with beautiful grounds and design. It was considered “ liveable” and the queens would be forced to do without many of the hangers on:)

[James Arryn]

2 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

I did a short tour of the Loire river valley. The guide noted that there was one castle that was large and drafty…and given as a punishment White Elephant. On the other hand, queens fought over Chenonceau, which is a tiny castle with beautiful grounds and design. It was considered “ liveable” and the queens would be forced to do without many of the hangers on:)

Chambord?

[HoodedCrow]

We had a cheese plate and local white wine at Chenonceau. Mmm. And the bread… Chambord is splendid, with a Da Vinci double helix staircase. One day, I will go back to inspect the architecture further.

[Angel Eyes]

7 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

The castle is a money pit. Costly to maintain. The surrounding lands are fertile but requires good management. Perhaps the lords who had the lands were not good in business. Unlike Walder Frey. 

Which begs the question as to why nobody's torn it down yet.

[Lord Varys]

Harrenhal started as the royal seat of the Hoares ... meaning originally the castle would have been maintained by a good part of the incomes of the King of the Rivers and the Islands. We can assume that Lord Quenton Qoherys had already trouble to maintain it properly, especially since Aegon torched it and Lord Quenton would have had lots of expenses simply to make the burned ruin habitable again.

Later, King Maegor took certain lands from the lordship and granted them to the Darrys and Butterwells rather than allowing Lord Tower - who he made the new Lord of Harrenhal - to keep them.

It doesn't seem that the Strongs had great lands of their own to add to their Harrenhal lordship, and neither the Lothstons and Whents afterwards, so the bottom line would be that the incomes of Harrenhal are to small to actually allow you to properly maintain the castle.

[Hugorfonics]

8 hours ago, James Arryn said:

I think it used to be. But as the Whents sided with the Targs, Robert stripped them of a lot of their lands but left the title. Harrenhall being so vast turns from advantage to albatross when you don’t have the land-income to support it.  

There's still plenty of land.

Quote

It was interesting to watch his face. Lord Petyr's father had been the smallest of small lords, his grandfather a landless hedge knight; by birth, he held no more than a few stony acres on the windswept shore of the Fingers. Harrenhal was one of the richest plums in the Seven Kingdoms, its lands broad and rich and fertile,

 

1 hour ago, Angel Eyes said:

Which begs the question as to why nobody's torn it down yet.

That's the hall of kings dude. I think it's just Whent didn't know what she was doing. But Tywin and Roose they knew what they were doing when they chose to man Harrenhal

[Loose Bolt]

Another important fact is that HH has direct access to huge lake => HH should have a lot of fishing boats and when that lake is frozen during long winters fishes in that lake should help people living in that castle survive longer than people that do not have any access to fishes.

So that ability to feed some people even during long winters should make HH more important than castles where people starve to death during long winters bc they cannot feed themselves.

[Alex13]

23 hours ago, Angel Eyes said:

Which begs the question as to why nobody's torn it down yet.

 

I think that is (at least partially) due to the pride of having the largest castle in the Seven Kingdoms. They don't want to tear it down and build a smaller, stronger castle, because they are the lord that has the biggest castle. 

And i think tearing down the current castle and building a smaller, more acceptable one would cost a lot of coin and take a lot of time. Although the costs and time might be reduced, if stone from Harrenhal could be reused.  

[EggBlue]

I think lords of Harrenhal have been rich and powerful in their own right. however , among all else said here , a reason that they've never been as wealthy as one would assume they'd be, is that they've never had enough time! let's take a look at the castle's history: every one of the houses who held HH didn't bring much wealth with them , save for Harroways who were soon extinct . Strongs had some time to use the riches of HH lands but then Aemond came and kill them all and probably emptied their treasuries as well . Lothsons again came from no wealth and then over occupied themselves with rebellions that must have cost them . then there comes Whents who , again, seem promising (although are not from particular wealth or old lineage) but  they fight on the wrong side of Robert's rebellion and lose everything they had including lady Whent's desire for her castle's maintenance .

 

[Darth Sidious]

Should be rich and powerful. Martin’s plot calls for them to be unsteady. HH is the Dune in our story. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 4/20/2022 at 11:57 AM, James Arryn said:

I think it used to be. But as the Whents sided with the Targs, Robert stripped them of a lot of their lands but left the title. Harrenhall being so vast turns from advantage to albatross when you don’t have the land-income to support it.  

Did they? Oswell did because he was kingsguard but Minisa was already married to Hoster at that point (assuming she's still alive). 

[Angel Eyes]

22 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Did they? Oswell did because he was kingsguard but Minisa was already married to Hoster at that point (assuming she's still alive). 

I think Minisa was dead by then; it's mentioned that Minisa died before Catelyn was betrothed to Brandon Stark, which would place it before 276 or 277 AC.

[Thedog]

Sometimes it’s referred to as a wealthy, powerful, prestigious title. For example, when Little Finger is said to be able to marry better because he became the lord of Harrenhal, and when Lord Whent hosts the great tournament to show off his wealth (though even then it is suggest he couldn’t actually afford the tournament himself). Other times it is referenced as poor, like when Lord Maegor lived in only one tower with a small household or Lady Whent was unable to hold it. The only consistent answer seems to be that the amount of land attached the title varies depending on what the king grants the lord given the title.