The Valonqar

[LynnS]

It's been a while since I've heard ideas about the identity of the valonqar.  Suspects range from Jaimie, Euron, Tyrion, Arya and even Tommen.  The meaning of valonqar in the common tongue - little brother - suggests age, birth order and stature.  Cersei obsesses over Tyrion given her dreams of mismatched eyes, hands and a hairy body.   

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A Feast for Crows - Cersei VIII

That made no sense to Cersei. Her thumb was throbbing where she'd cut it, and her blood was dripping on the carpet. How could that be? she wanted to ask, but she was done with her questions.

The old woman was not done with her, however. "Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds," she said. "And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

"What is a valonqar? Some monster?" The golden girl did not like that foretelling. "You're a liar and a warty frog and a smelly old savage, and I don't believe a word of what you say. Come away, Melara. She is not worth hearing."

I have wondered why Maggy or Maegi uses the term valonqar/little brother.  Is this Cersei's little brother or someone Maggy would refer to as "a little brother"?  Perhaps in the same way that Borroq refers to Jon as brother?

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A Dance with Dragons - Jon XII

The skinchanger stopped ten yards away. His monster pawed at the mud, snuffling. A light powdering of snow covered the boar's humped black back. He gave a snort and lowered his head, and for half a heartbeat Jon thought he was about to charge. To either side of him, his men lowered their spears.

"Brother," Borroq said.

"You'd best go on. We are about to close the gate."

Borroq considers Jon a brother because he is a warg.  Does Maggy also refer to someone who is a brother to her as fellow practitioner of magic?  If Maggy is a mispronunciation of maegi; is the little brother a mage?

That immediately brings to mind Marwyn the Mage.  Sam'a descrption:

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A Feast for Crows - Samwell V

"Sam," said Alleras, "this is Archmaester Marwyn."

Marwyn wore a chain of many metals around his bull's neck. Save for that, he looked more like a dockside thug than a maester. His head was too big for his body, and the way it thrust forward from his shoulders, together with that slab of jaw, made him look as if he were about to tear off someone's head. Though short and squat, he was heavy in the chest and shoulders, with a round, rock-hard ale belly straining at the laces of the leather jerkin he wore in place of robes. Bristly white hair sprouted from his ears and nostrils. His brow beetled, his nose had been broken more than once, and sourleaf had stained his teeth a mottled red. He had the biggest hands that Sam had ever seen.

He's short and squat and somewhat mis-shapen and a frightening looking character.  Emphasis on the largest hands Sam has ever seen; hands being a feature of Maggy's prophecy.  But we are not given a descrption of his eyes.  We are told that he is nicknamed the mastiff.  Mastiff/husky mixes can have bi-colored eyes.  Marwyn's eye color has been kept out of Sam's descrption so far.

I've had the sense that Cersei is being tormented in her dreams and wonder if there is meddling using glass candles.  

Most of all it's the venom in Marwyn's voice when he compares prophecy to a treacherous woman:

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A Feast for Crows - Samwell V

"Born amidst salt and smoke, beneath a bleeding star. I know the prophecy." Marwyn turned his head and spat a gob of red phlegm onto the floor. "Not that I would trust it. Gorghan of Old Ghis once wrote that a prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is . . . and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time." He chewed a bit. "Still . . ."

 

Cersei is the most treacherous of women.  I'm not 100% sold, but I think it's a possibility.  I think Marwyn fits the description of little brother.

What is your current thinking on the valonqar?  

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

Ohh I like the idea of it being Maggy's "brother", I haven't seen that suggested before. 

What always hangs me up about this, & maybe I'm just reading too far into it, is that she says THE Volanqar. 

Not a Volanqar  or your volanqar but The. Like it's the only one. But I can't think of anyone that would be The Brother. The answer must lie somewhere in her use of the Valyrian word, right? She could have just said brother so there is some reason she didn't. 

 

 

[LynnS]

7 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Ohh I like the idea of it being Maggy's "brother", I haven't seen that suggested before. 

What always hangs me up about this, & maybe I'm just reading too far into it, is that she says THE Volanqar. 

Not a Volanqar  or your volanqar but The. Like it's the only one. But I can't think of anyone that would be The Brother. The answer must lie somewhere in her use of the Valyrian word, right? She could have just said brother so there is some reason she didn't. 

Yes. it's not your valonqar, it's the valonqar.  It sounds more like a title' something you give someone if your affiliation was say, professional rather than literally a sibling.  Something similar to Borroq naming Jon 'brother' because Jon is a warg.. So is Maggy/Maegi naming someone who is like her?  The Mage?

I was listening to Robert (In Deep Geek) podcast on how GRRM uses prophecy in the books.  It's not the truth of the prophecy that drives the story as much as it is how the character is affected by it, interprets and reacts to it.

This is very good.  Robert is very chaming and pleasant!  He discusses Maggy a number of times in this stream and thinks she is someone who is true seer.  He sums up Maggy at about 1 hr 57 min.

 

[Nevets]

I think the valonqar is someone who is known as "the little brother (or sister)" or maybe as the "valonqar " (the valyrian term).  Tyrion is a "little brother" and is in eastern Essos, where Valyrian is used (I think).  I like the idea of Cersei's actions to avoid the prophecy helping to fulfill it.

[John Suburbs]

My money is on Tommen, after he's been wighted of course and tries to choke the life out of Cersei the way wights tend to kill people. I can only hope we get this from Cersei's POV so we see her final despairing thoughts just before her light goes out, like we did with Cat.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

15 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

My money is on Tommen, after he's been wighted of course and tries to choke the life out of Cersei the way wights tend to kill people. I can only hope we get this from Cersei's POV so we see her final despairing thoughts just before her light goes out, like we did with Cat.

Why do you think Maggy chose the valyrian word rather than just saying "the little brother?" 

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Why do you think Maggy chose the valyrian word rather than just saying "the little brother?" 

So my fun theory on this, valyrian is a foreign language and sometimes stuff gets lost in translation. Mainly gender. Like how Aemon notes that the term dragon is often thought of as masculine but there's no actual reason for that.

So my line of thinking is instead of "little brother" it's more like little sibling. So while Cersei has only one little brother, she also now has a little sister in law. As I'm thoroughly convinced the sister in law is also the younger more beautiful queen, I think it'll be convenient if she's also the valonqar

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The queen bristled. "I most certainly have not forgotten that little she-wolf." She refused to say the girl's name. "I ought to have shown her to the black cells as the daughter of a traitor, but instead I made her part of mine own household. She shared my hearth and hall, played with my own children. I fed her, dressed her, tried to make her a little less ignorant about the world, and how did she repay me for my kindness? She helped murder my son. When we find the Imp, we will find the Lady Sansa too. She is not dead . . . but before I am done with her, I promise you, she will be singing to the Stranger, begging for his kiss."

 

 

But it's probably just Tyrion or Jaime

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Why do you think Maggy chose the valyrian word rather than just saying "the little brother?" 

Well he did go to Asshai and I'm assuming he was not just teaching others  like Mirri Maaz Duur, but also studying with other wizards/sorcerers etc.  It may be that they referred to him as "little brother" in their language given his short stature. It may be where he learned the secrets of glass candles.  He has been labelled The Mage at the Citadel because of his knowledge. 

And I think GRRM wanted to throw some mystery into it.  Keeping in mind that he warns about taking prophecy literally.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

30 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

So my fun theory on this, valyrian is a foreign language and sometimes stuff gets lost in translation. Mainly gender. Like how Aemon notes that the term dragon is often thought of as masculine but there's no actual reason for that.

So my line of thinking is instead of "little brother" it's more like little sibling. So while Cersei has only one little brother, she also now has a little sister in law. As I'm thoroughly convinced the sister in law is also the younger more beautiful queen, I think it'll be convenient if she's also the valonqar

Ohh, I would so love for Sansa to be the volanqar. Poetic justice. 

32 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

But it's probably just Tyrion or Jaime

Haha maybe, I go back & forth about which I would rather it be. I want it to be Jaime because Cersei expects it to be Tyrion & thinks Jaime will forever be under her thumb. But then I want it to Tyrion too because she has done him so wrong. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

2 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Well he did go to Asshai and I'm assuming he was not just teaching others  like Mirri Maaz Duur, but also studying with other wizards/sorcerers etc.  It may be that they referred to him as "little brother" in their language given his short stature. It may be where he learned the secrets of glass candles.  He has been labelled The Mage at the Citadel because of his knowledge. 

And I think GRRM wanted to throw some mystery into it.  Keeping in mind that he warns about taking prophecy literally.

Yeah, this fits nicely. I really think you might be on to something. 

[LynnS]

42 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

As I'm thoroughly convinced the sister in law is also the younger more beautiful queen, I think it'll be convenient if she's also the valonqar

In Deep Geeks theory about this is there are a number of younger more beautiful women who take everything that Cersei holds dear from her.  Margarey takes the love of the people from her, she thinks Sansa takes Joffrey from her and Brienne takes Jaimie from her. He discusses that at about 1 hr 50m in the above podcast.

[LynnS]

I know it's a long podcast but last 30 minutes is pretty interesting.  Actually it's all interesting and I think Robert is very easy to listen to and a top theoretician.  It's a Q&A so it covers a lot of open questions in the minds of readers. He certainly makes you think about things in a different light.  The livestream is also moderated so there aren't a lot of pauses and interruptions.

His explanation about the younger, moe beautiful women makes a lot of sense to me since I've been thinking this is only one woman rather than several impacting Cersei over time..   

What surprised me was that he also thinks that Dany might be a Nissa Nissa figure to Jon's AA at the end of the story and this might be the answer to the last fire, last mount and last treason on the Undying prophecy.  Although I didn't make that connection to the act of making Lightbringer.

I only disagree with him on MMD's answer to Dany's question about seeing Drogo again.  I think he missed Tyrion seeing the sun rising in west (the blood bruised moon).  I don't think it's prophecy so much as noticing signs and portents on other POV's.  In Dany's last chapter she sees a blood bruised sky.  ..

 

[Hugorfonics]

36 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Ohh, I would so love for Sansa to be the volanqar. Poetic justice.

Totally

36 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Haha maybe, I go back & forth about which I would rather it be. I want it to be Jaime because Cersei expects it to be Tyrion & thinks Jaime will forever be under her thumb. But then I want it to Tyrion too because she has done him so wrong. 

I'd prefer Sansa the most, because like you said, poetic justice. Then I'd want Jaime because I think that whole dying at the same moment is just sick and perverse, though them both murdering each other at the same time would be fun.

Tyrion, yea, idk. I'm sure whatever GRRM decides will be dope.

 

35 minutes ago, LynnS said:

He discusses that at about 1 hr 50m in the above podcast.

Cool, I'll give it a listen if I get a chance.

 

36 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Margarey takes the love of the people from her

She never had that and certainly never wanted it. Definitely doesn't hold it dear.

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Robert wanted smiles and cheers, always, so he went where he found them, to his friends and his whores. Robert wanted to be loved. My brother Tyrion has the same disease. Do you want to be loved, Sansa?"

"Everyone wants to be loved."

"I see flowering hasn't made you any brighter," said Cersei. "Sansa, permit me to share a bit of womanly wisdom with you on this very special day. Love is poison. A sweet poison, yes, but it will kill you all the same."

 

39 minutes ago, LynnS said:

she thinks Sansa takes Joffrey from her

She kinda did. Not on purpose, or even concisely, (in fact I don't even think Joffrey was supposed to die) but Sansa escaped KL through the panic or regicide

44 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Brienne takes Jaimie from her.

Not a queen. Also Cersei kind of threw Jaime away, (while Jaime throws away Cersei) the rift between the twins has nothing really to do with Brienne

[LynnS]

41 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Not a queen. Also Cersei kind of threw Jaime away, (while Jaime throws away Cersei) the rift between the twins has nothing really to do with Brienne

Doesn't the prophecy say "a younger, more beautifil woman" rather than queen?

[LynnS]

55 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Cool, I'll give it a listen if I get a chance.

Love to know what you think about it!

[Groo]

1 hour ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Ohh, I would so love for Sansa to be the volanqar. Poetic justice.

As great as that would be, I can't picture Sansa ever physically overpowering and strangling someone. You know Cersei wouldn't go down without a fight, so it needs someone with enough strength.

[LynnS]

6 minutes ago, Groo said:

As great as that would be, I can't picture Sansa ever physically overpowering and strangling someone. You know Cersei wouldn't go down without a fight, so it needs someone with enough strength.

Same for Jaimie since he only really has one hand.  I suppose you could argue that he uses something besides his hands.  But the prophecy is pretty specific..  

Another tidbit that In Deep Geek pointed out... in Jaimie's weirwood stump dream, the last thing he experiences is a choking sensation and then he wakes.  There is perhaps some forshadowing in the books that Jaimie and Cersei will die together.  So who would have the ability to choke both of them?  Any ideas?

[Hugorfonics]

16 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Doesn't the prophecy say "a younger, more beautifil woman" rather than queen?

Neither

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"I will be queen, though?" asked the younger her.

"Aye." Malice gleamed in Maggy's yellow eyes. "Queen you shall be . . . until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear."

"Another", I assume means queen not woman. Cersei also assumes this

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It is just . . . the maegi knew how many children I would have, and she knew of Robert's bastards. Years before he'd sired even the first of them, she knew. She promised me I should be queen, but said another queen would come . . ." Younger and more beautiful, she said. ". . . another queen, who would take from me all I loved."

 

7 minutes ago, Groo said:

As great as that would be, I can't picture Sansa ever physically overpowering and strangling someone. You know Cersei wouldn't go down without a fight, so it needs someone with enough strength.

I guess? I'm more concerned about Queen Sansa of Winterfell, chopping necks with a greatsword because Stark bosses who pass judgment also swing the sword

[LynnS]

5 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

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"I will be queen, though?" asked the younger her.

"Aye." Malice gleamed in Maggy's yellow eyes. "Queen you shall be . . . until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear."

"Another", I assume means queen not woman. Cersei also assumes this

Right.  She will be queen but another will take that away from her.  Cersei assumes she will be replaced as queen but it doesn't necessarily follow.  Only that she will be dethroned.  It could even be Dany who removes her.

 

[Evolett]

On 4/20/2022 at 5:04 PM, LynnS said:

Cersei is the most treacherous of women.  I'm not 100% sold, but I think it's a possibility.  I think Marwyn fits the description of little brother.

Nice train of thought, especially the idea of the Valonqar being someone connected to Maggy the Frog which I think is in the right direction, but Marwyn isn’t my choice because of the sourleaf motif surrounding him. There are a few sourleaf chewing characters in the books including Masha Heddle, Yoren and Chett of the NW, the dwarf sparrow killed in place of Tyrion. All four are dead, subjected to violent deaths and common to these sourleaf people is that they were connected to important events that had nothing to do with them personally. Masha was hanged by the Lannisters because Tyrion was kidnapped in her inn. Yoren and most of his convoy of recruits are killed, probably because Yoren refused to hand over Gendry earlier during the journey. Chett had planned to kill LC Mormont but had nothing to do with the wight attack on the Fist of the First Men and the dwarf sparrow was killed in place of Tyrion. Marwyn might meet his end in similar circumstances. Ironically, the treacherous woman could be Dany herself who might regard him with suspicion because he was one of Mirri Maz Duur’s tutors. He had nothing to do with Drogo’s or Rhaego’s deaths but might end up bleeding for Mirri’s deeds.

My tip would be Raynald Westerling, Jeyne Westerling’s brother, both great grand children of Maggy the Frog. Raynald is currently missing. He was Robb’s standard bearer, close to him and seemed loyal to him. These are Catelyn’s thoughts:

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He (Robb) seemed to enjoy the company of his bride’s brothers, as well; young Rollam his squire and Ser Raynald his standard-bearer. They are standing in the boots of those he’s lost, Catelyn realized when she watched them together. Rollam has taken Bran’s place, and Raynald is part Theon and part Jon Snow.

Raynald was not aware of his mother Sybell’s treachery and accompanied Robb to the Twins. The young knight was loyal to Robb. He tried to release Grey Wind from the net the wolf was caught in and was hit by Frey crossbows. He escaped into the river but his body was never found; neither was he amongst captives. Presumably Raynald is out there somewhere. I see him as a possible candidate  because of his relationship to Maggy the Frog and because of the triangle of parallels between the Westerlings, Reynes of Castermere and Robb/the Red Wedding. These include the mass murder parallel, the similarity in names regarding the Reynes and the Westerlings, the Westerlings being awarded Castermere and even the parallel between Cersei’s walk of shame and that of Tytos Lannister's mistress.

So in a roundabout way both the “Reynes” and Robb have their revenge on the Lannisters when Raynard wraps his hands around Cersei’s neck. Another clue: Cersei visited Maggy the Frog together with another Jeyne. Jeyne Farman in this case. Could be Rollam of course, being a little brother who is compared to Bran but my bet is on Raynald. It is unclear if Raynald is younger than Robb’s queen, Jeyne. Raynald being a descendant of Maggy’s Essos origins also explains her use of the word Valonqar instead of “little brother.”