The Valonqar

[LynnS]

19 minutes ago, Angus Thermopyle said:

The only one I can think of that would have the ability to choke both Jaime and Cersie would be Gregor, aka Robert Strong, but he's the Elder of the Clegane brothers. 

I'm not sure that Robet Strong won't turn out to be a horror to Cersei but agree he doesn't fit the definition of little brother.

[three-eyed monkey]

There's a few more thoughts I could add on the subject of Jaime strangling Cersei with the chain of the hand.

The chain of the Hand is made up of gold hands, and Jaime has a golden hand. Lannisters are known for gold, so in many respects gold hands represent Lannister hands.

The position of Hand has already been held by Tywin and Tyrion, and I suspect Jaime might become the Golden Hand at some stage. If so, then the chain will be present when Jaime confronts Cersei for the final time.

We are told that hands of gold are cold. So are the hands of dead people. Cersei has played her part in bleeding the realm, creating a lot of dead people in the process, so being choked by a lot of cold hands would symbolize the realm's revenge on Cersei. The hands in the chain are also linked, each holding the next, and as such the chain is a symbol of unity, while Cersei is a divisive character, and this would symbolize the victory of unity over division.

Finally, Ned wore the same chain so it might symbolize Ned and honor's ultimate victory over Cersei and her dishonorable methods. And who better to strike a blow for honor than Jaime, who is on a path to redemption and will need an act of redemption to resolve his arc.

[Wm Portnoy]

Valonqar is Valyrian; therefore, the gender of the killer is not a good clue.  Tyrion is still the leading suspect.  He has a grudge against his sister.  And Song of Ice and Fire is full of family problems. 

[Apoplexy]

When I had first read the books, I had thought occam's razor, it has to be Jaime. I still think it's going to be Jaime. Or at least Jaime will be somehow responsible for Cersei's death even if he does not actively kill her.

[James Arryn]

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

I'm not sure that Robet Strong won't turn out to be a horror to Cersei but agree he doesn't fit the definition of little brother.

I also think a prophecy that potentially includes any male with younger siblings isn’t much of a prophecy. 

[LynnS]

10 hours ago, James Arryn said:

I also think a prophecy that potentially includes any male with younger siblings isn’t much of a prophecy. 

My inclination is not to take it literally most of the time.  A sibling might be a bit too on the nose.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

12 hours ago, Wm Portnoy said:

Valonqar is Valyrian; therefore, the gender of the killer is not a good clue.  Tyrion is still the leading suspect.  He has a grudge against his sister.  And Song of Ice and Fire is full of family problems. 

We only know of one word that is gender neutral in Valyrian. Its possible but definitely not certain 

[LynnS]

What was the clever Tyroshi device used to strangle Brandon Stark?  Could it have been something used in sailing?  Are there any sigils that feature hands?

[Evolett]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

What was the clever Tyroshi device used to strangle Brandon Stark?  Could it have been something used in sailing?  Are there any sigils that feature hands?

First the quote:

Quote

“When the fire was blazing, Brandon was brought in. His hands were chained behind his back, and around his neck was a wet leathern cord attached to a device the king had brought from Tyrosh. His legs were left free, though, and his longsword was set down just beyond his reach.

Brandon was free to move to a certain extent but this was curtailed by the attached Tyroshi device. He could reach for the sword, never actually getting there - well, his hands were tied behind his back so little chance of actually holding it, even if he had reached it. But it served the purpose - bait, if you like, to make him move toward the sword and against the device.

It may have been a type of garrote fitted with a mechanism that allowed for the wet leather cord to tighten but prevented it from loosening after each struggle. Also, the application of water causes leather to shrink, especially when heat is added - there was heat from Brandon's body warmth as he struggled for  the sword as well as heat from the fire applied to Lord Rickard. This means there was no chance of the cord loosening, as it would constrict ever tighter around the neck. It was mechanism with two means of ensuring the victim would die. I think the wet leather is especially important because it means constriction even if the victim does not struggle. 

Quote

Next he would start to cook, Aerys promised … unless his son could free him. Brandon tried, but the more he struggled, the tighter the cord constricted around his throat. In the end he strangled himself.

Could it have been used in sailing? Perhaps in rowing. Oars are held by a so-called oarslock device that operate on a similar principle - basically as a kind of throttle to prevent the oar from slipping out. 

 

Getting back to the Valonqar. Even though I theorise that Raynald Westerling may end up being the Valonqar, Jamie is certainly an option and so is Tyrion. However, it's also likely that Jamie simply serves a clue to the eventual perpetrator, via his golden hand. Both Jamie and Tyrion are associated with gold hands, Tyrion because he stangled Shae with a necklace made of linked golden hands representing the office of the Hand of the King. Then there is the damning song by Symon Silver Tongue with the line "hands of gold are always cold, but a woman's hands are warm." Tyrion thinks of this line while strangling Shae with the hands of gold:

Quote

Tyrion slid a hand under his father’s chain, and twisted. The links tightened, digging into her neck. “For hands of gold are always cold, but a woman’s hands are warm,” he said. He gave cold hands another twist as the warm ones beat away his tears.

Following this series of symbols could imply someone with cold hands, someone like Coldhands the wight? The wighted little brother of another character? Wights strangle their victims with their hands more often than not and Winter is Coming. Is there any further clue surrounding 'cold hands?'
Then there is the clue of the office of the Hand of the King. Ned in his role as Hand of the King and the Stark family have suffered immensely at the hands of the Lannisters. They and those who loved and supported them have every reason to desire revenge which is why I see the valonqar coming from that quarter rather than anywhere else. 

 

 

[LynnS]

6 minutes ago, Evolett said:

First the quote:

Thank you!  I was thinking of a sailing winch but I don't know anything about sailing or winches.    Can I get back to you?  I'm going away for a few days.

[Evolett]

34 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Thank you!  I was thinking of a sailing winch but I don't know anything about sailing or winches.    Can I get back to you?  I'm going away for a few days.

I don't know anything about sailing either. See you in a few days then .

[James Arryn]

4 hours ago, LynnS said:

My inclination is not to take it literally most of the time.  A sibling might be a bit too on the nose.

I think George just expected everyone to assume it would be Tyrion. He has repeatedly been surprised at how many of his ~ simpler mysteries were solved. It’s I think another hitch in his giddy-up. 

[Apoplexy]

I think it would be hilarious if it turns out to be Tyrion in the end and Cersei was right for once in her life. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean he is not out to get you  

[Groo]

2 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

I think it would be hilarious if it turns out to be Tyrion in the end and Cersei was right for once in her life. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean he is not out to get you  

In fact, he is out to get her at this point!

[James Arryn]

3 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

I think it would be hilarious if it turns out to be Tyrion in the end and Cersei was right for once in her life. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean he is not out to get you  

On this score you gotta kind of feel for George. I doubt anyone’s work has been subjected to as much scrutiny mid-work as his, and it’’s going to be pretty hard to both shock readers and stay credible at this point. Of course getting lapped by the show and leaving over a decade between books in the internet age isn’t helping. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

I’m leaning towards Arya.

Quote

"Seven hells. The little sister. The brat who tossed Joff's pretty sword in the river." He gave a bark of laughter. "Don't you know you're dead?"

She has been referred to as a “the little sister” at least once (possibly other times too that I’m forgetting). Since Arya is long believed to be dead, Cersei certainly wouldn’t expect her to show up to avenge her family. Cersei is also the only woman Arya has ever wanted to kill.

Spoiler

Plus it would explain why there was no valonqar on the show, since they probably thought that Arya killing both the Night King and Cersei was, uh, overkill.

Of course, it could be connected to one of the many cut characters, which would also explain why the show dropped it completely.

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

Jaime killing Cersei would destroy his character. Killing your romantic partner is not a noble thing to do, no matter how villainous she is. As much as I love Jaime, he chose to be with Cersei and father her children. Killing her to “destroy his dark side” would be absolute bullshit.

Spoiler

Furthermore, if Jon does kill Dany in the books, I don’t think George would have something that momentous happen twice in the same book. In the show at least, Jaime chose love and Jon chose duty.

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

15 hours ago, Apoplexy said:

I think it would be hilarious if it turns out to be Tyrion in the end and Cersei was right for once in her life. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean he is not out to get you  

Agreed or better yet that it is Tyrion because Cersei made it so. She is bringing about her own demise, she is fulfilling the prophecy herself. 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

12 hours ago, James Arryn said:

On this score you gotta kind of feel for George. I doubt anyone’s work has been subjected to as much scrutiny mid-work as his, and it’’s going to be pretty hard to both shock readers and stay credible at this point. Of course getting lapped by the show and leaving over a decade between books in the internet age isn’t helping

Indeed but also if we didn't have so much time in between books we wouldn't be able to scrutinize them the way we do, right? 

 

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

10 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Jaime killing Cersei would destroy his character. Killing your romantic partner is not a noble thing to do, no matter how villainous she is. As much as I love Jaime, he chose to be with Cersei and father her children. Killing her to “destroy his dark side” would be absolute bullshit.

I don't know, if he is killing her for the greater good I think it would be a nice ending to his arc & would have brought him full circle back to where he began - killing Aerys for the greater good.