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The Valonqar


LynnS
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On 4/25/2022 at 9:45 AM, The Bard of Banefort said:

Why would he strangle her for the greater good though? A sword would be much quicker and easier, especially for a guy with only one hand. Strangulation is an expression of extreme, personal anger.

Tyrion is tops among the suspects. Followed by Arya in disguise. I would have to make an assumption if it’s Arya though. Cersei can easily overpower little Arya unless drug is involved.

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23 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Sorry, I was just making a comparison. I'm just saying that maybe Maggy used the word Valonqar instead of little brother because there is not a direct translation, similar to when Dany was trying to translate to Drogo & he thought she was saying it was an Iron chair, she said it's not a chair it's a ... she couldn't find a Dothraki word to fit so she said throne. 

As far as anyone in the story knows, some of whom speak Old Valyrian, the direct translation is "little brother." Maggy's command of the common tongue seemed pretty good in Cersei's recollection, so I doubt she didn't have the right words. But maybe there is a deeper meaning to Valonqar that has been lost to time, kind of like the supposed mixup with the prince/princess that was promised. Curiouser and curiouser.

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21 hours ago, EggBlue said:

Jaimie and Brienne ask what lives in the darkness

Notice the emphasis here.

“Do they keep a bear down here?” Brienne was moving, slow and wary, sword to hand; step, 
turn, and listen. Each step made a little splash. “A cave lion? Direwolves? Some bear? Tell me, 
Jaime. What lives here? What lives in the darkness?” 

Brienne starts with asking about a bear and only a bear. In fact, it's the first question she asks in the dream. The first verb isn't even lives. It's keep. A bear pit: "Do they keep a bear down here?" A little further on it becomes a list of animals but it ends with bear again, repeating the emphasis.

After the dream, Jaime returns to Harrnehal to find they've thrown Brienne into the bear pit.

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2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

As far as anyone in the story knows, some of whom speak Old Valyrian, the direct translation is "little brother." Maggy's command of the common tongue seemed pretty good in Cersei's recollection, so I doubt she didn't have the right words. But maybe there is a deeper meaning to Valonqar that has been lost to time, kind of like the supposed mixup with the prince/princess that was promised. Curiouser and curiouser.

Yeah that's what I'm thinking. Could be. 

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21 hours ago, EggBlue said:

nice catch! I've never considered that . it'll be hilarious if crown here is referring to golden hair while the fandom's been theorizing about gold crowns

To be fair I think most of the fandom accept that this is a reference to their Lannister hair.

23 hours ago, EggBlue said:

so , it's in the red keep . I can't really say I have anything specific other than the dream, to make me believe Jaimie will somehow end up with Widow's Wail, Valonqer or not. Tywin says he has already given Jaimie a sword and he gives his sword to Brienne . then he looks and sees his own sword as Brienne's twin sword burning in light . I guess technically you could say Jaimie can possess any other dragon steel sword to fight the Others but the fact that Ice split into two swords and Jaimie sees himself with Brienne is telling. 

I agree that Jaime will take up Widow's Wail at some stage. Jaime and Brienne both wield flaming swords in his dream, and that is a reference to Lightbringer. I would say this is a hint that Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail, Jaime and Brienne's swords, once reforged, will be Lightbringer.

22 hours ago, LynnS said:

It was suggested that when Jaimie breaks his oaths; his light will go out and he will die.

Or perhaps when Jaime proves himself as a true knight once again, it will cost him his life and love.

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4 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

To be fair I think most of the fandom accept that this is a reference to their Lannister hair.

Actually I didn't make that connection and thought it was just about being crowned especially since shrouds are also mentioned.

4 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Or perhaps when Jaime proves himself as a true knight once again, it will cost him his life and love.

Yah, I don't know how this will turn out.  I think they will die together if the book forshadowing is anything to go by.  And well, that's the way it was portrayed in the show -- if that is one of the major beats that was revealed to D&D.  I don't see why not but I expect it will come in the last book.  I heard somewhere that GRRM said Cersei would Survive TWOW.

As for Jaimie's character arc from soiled knight to true knight;  I hope it doesn't end up with Jaimie reverting to soiled knight again.  That there is an honorable reason for Jaimie to return to Cersei.  I think that also depends on what happens with her.  I think her undoing descrbed as drowning in tears after losing everything she holds dear (her children, Jaimie, herself) will be a series of events over time.  

I can't help thinking that Euron looms large in her future as his (casterly) rock wife.  And who knows what he will do to her.  I also wouldn't put it past Qyburn to turn her into an undead character of some kind.  This is my tin and foil talking, but I can imagine her 'death' by the little brother as an act of release or mercy.   

That would be more satisfying and bittersweet than an act of revenge and one hopes Jaimie will purge himself of such motivations.

Edited by LynnS
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4 hours ago, LynnS said:

That would be more satisfying and bittersweet than an act of revenge and one hopes Jaimie will purge himself of such motivations.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying Jaime will kill her out of revenge. I'm saying he will try to stop her from destroying herself and King's Landing, but she will deliver a mortal wound in the process and he will have no choice but act.

Like I said, Honor is the quality of knowing and doing the right thing. Vengeance and Justice are juxtaposed in the books, most notably by Ned when he was Hand and sent Beric to deliver justice to Gregor. Vengeance is not the right thing. Justice is the right thing. Justice is the idea that everyone gets what they deserve. The innocent people of King's Landing do not deserve to die just because Cersei loses the game of thrones, and I feel Jaime will be the one to bring justice to the situation, albeit at a great personal cost.

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3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Just to be clear, I'm not saying Jaime will kill her out of revenge. I'm saying he will try to stop her from destroying herself and King's Landing, but she will deliver a mortal wound in the process and he will have no choice but act.

Oh, I wasn't criticizing what you said.  I was just rambling about what goes on in my head.  You are lucky I didn't get started on Cersei's valonqar dreams.  

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Who is the woman with hands of pale white fire?

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The dreams were even worse the second time. He saw the longships of the Ironborn adrift and burning on a boiling blood-red sea. He saw his brother on the Iron Throne again, but Euron was no longer human. He seemed more squid than man, a monster fathered by a kraken of the deep, his face a mass of writhing tentacles. Beside him stood a shadow in woman’s form, long and tall and terrible, her hands alive with pale white fire. Dwarves capered for their amusement, male and female, naked and misshapen, locked in carnal embrace, biting and tearing at each other as Euron and his mate laughed and laughed and laughed … Foresaken Chapter

Her shadow is long and tall and terrible implying that she has a signifinant presence.  Here is Jon describing the shadow cast by Tyrion:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon I

"Some woman, no doubt. Most of them are." He favored Jon with a rueful grin. "Remember this, boy. All dwarfs may be bastards, yet not all bastards need be dwarfs." And with that he turned and sauntered back into the feast, whistling a tune. When he opened the door, the light from within threw his shadow clear across the yard, and for just a moment Tyrion Lannister stood tall as a king.

 

Who would cast a shadow in a similar manner; one that is long, tall and terrible?  Euron is sitting the Iron Throne and she is his mate.  I think there is a good chance that this is pointing to Cersei.

But what is pale white fire?  If this is Cersei, what has happened to her?

From the movie White Fire:

 

Edited by LynnS
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1 hour ago, LynnS said:

Who is the woman with hands of pale white fire?

Her shadow is long and tall and terrible implying that she has a signifinant presence.  Here is Jon describing the shadow cast by Tyrion:

 

Who would cast a shadow in a similar manner; one that is long, tall and terrible?  Euron is sitting the Iron Throne and she is his mate.  I think there is a good chance that this is pointing to Cersei.

But what is pale white fire?  If this is Cersei, what has happened to her?

From the movie White Fire:

 

I think an important distinction is that Tyrion is clearly described as having a shadow, this woman is described as being one, and her humanity is the illusion. That could just be the distortion of prophecy,  but imo it implies more than a significant presence, and that she is somehow supernatural. So Mel, LSH, Quaithe, possibly Dany qualify. Or someone in some stage of wight-ness, a la Coldhands. 
 

Alternatively it could be another allusion to the woman’s House/sigil as prophecies often seem very preoccupied with heraldry. So, houses which imply shadows and/or white fire, so Targs and…? 
 

edit: lol, Karstarks, obviously. 

Edited by James Arryn
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38 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

this woman is described as being one, and her humanity is the illusion.

I like the idea that she is in the process of being wighted in some fashion.  Whether by fire or ice; what remains of a person's soul or shadow reanimates the corpse.  GRRM's versions of a Frankenstein monster.  LSH and Robert Strong come to mind and so I wonder if there will be a third such monster. 

It would be fitting for the drowned crow to wed a drowned wife and Cersei may be desperate enough to hold onto power to ally herself with Euron.  She doesn't have a problem surrounding herself with dangerous friend type.  After all he gives his followers what they most desire.  This is an easy way for him to take the throne.   Hands of white fire may by symbolic of Ceresei's growing fascination with fire and pyromania.  

And we have the original Frankenstein lurking around Cersei, someone I suspect Euron will make use of with Qyburn's full collaboration.  This puts a bit of a horror twist on things but it's kind of what I expect at this point.

Also, I imagine that LSH, Robert Strong and an undead Cersei will have to be released from that state by someone who is related to them:  Arya, Sandor and Jaimie.  "The things we do for love."

So it would be quite a twist if the valonqar turns out to be a Frankenstein character and Jaimie is the one to give her a final death sacrificing hhimself in the process.

 

Edited by LynnS
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Anyways, the valonqar (your valonqar was mentioned by one of the bounty hunters so it suggests the is significant) is the same person as "younger and more beautiful".  

In said chapter and before Cersei repeatedly mentions Rhaegar as the beautiful (a term associated with feminine features as opposed to handsome) and goes as far as to call him the most beautiful (even more than Jaime). She enters the tent to ask about her engagement to Rhaegar, Maggy is speaking of another more beautiful than Rhaegar. 

This person is most likely modeled after Rhaegar since beauty is subjective. He is the true born son Aegon who is in the image of his father. Aegon is also the younger brother to Rhaenys, and is memorialized as the younger brother due to his 'death' (never having outgrown that descriptor). He is also of Valyrian blood signifying the usage of a Valyrian word. 

Faegon is not the real heir, but his origin story suggests the truth. The tanner traded arbor gold for the pisswater prince. 

Arbor Gold is symbolizes lies in ASOIAF. Urine is the opposite version of Arbor Gold, and is therefore symbolic of truth. The true prince was traded for lies. Faegon was traded for the real prince. 

Aegon was however moved to Ilyrio's house, and this is signified by the candied ginger which Ilyrio said was his favorite. Yet Young Griff does not eat the ginger. There is also the baby clothes which Septa Lemore tears up. This was evidence of some other prince who occupied the house for thirteen years (which is why Dany/Viserys were not allowed for 13 or so years). 

Arya, while in the house of black and white, says the oldest apprentices were no older than Sansa suggesting that is the average age someone can be accepted into the guild. Aegon was sent to the house of black and white at thirteen so that his identity might be washed and his claim to the throne lost. But he returns to Westeros under the pseudonym Jaqen H'ghar (notice H'ghar is a wordplay on Rhaegar). 

He confronts Ilyrio and Varys, but Varys as Rugen tricks Jaqen/Aegon into a black cell where he would be sent to the wall, another form of exile. This was a rash decision but they cannot have the real Aegon show himself. Arya, while in the dungeons, sees a dead dragon and thinks it is almost alive. Aegon is supposedly dead, but secretly alive.   

Arya, who is presented as an alternative of Lyanna (horse girl vs horseface) saves Jaqen. They, alongside Gendry go to Harrenhall. Arya in this scenario is Lyanna, Gendry is Robert, and Jaqen is Rhaegar. 

Gendry wants Arya to stay away from him, but she eventual goes to Jaqen for help. He is seen leaning on the weeping tower (opposite of the tower of joy as he was the abandoned in favor of Jon) and breaks his speech pattern to pledge himself to Arya under the Harrenhall Heart-Tree:  

A man’s sire is long dead, but did he live, and did you know his name, he would die at your command.” “Swear it,” Arya said. “Swear it by the gods.” “By all the gods of sea and air, and even him of fire, I swear it.” He placed a hand in the mouth of the weirwood. “By the seven new gods and the old gods beyond count, I swear it.” He has sworn. “Even if I named the king . . .” 

Arya says she will name a king, and then names Jaqen H'ghar. 

When he next appears as the alchemist, he is playing the role of a secret king. He is in the citadel looking for the book on how dragons died to hatch his own dragon. With a dragon (whose egg he won from Euron) there would be proof of his lineage. 

The first of his identities, the alchemist, is play on Strider (secretly Aragorn). Strider is at a tavern in a hooded cloak watching our party in Lord of the Rings. When the alchemist (who wares a hooded cloak and watches are party from afar) confronts Pate he calls their group a "Fellowship". 

Sam Tarly also joins that fellowship later as he is ASOIAF's version of Samwise. 

The Alchemist takes the identity of Pate who is a pig boy. In Hans Christian Anderson's fairytale the Swineherd the prince is disguised as a swineherd (pig boy). 

In the fairytale the prince's most prized possessions are a rose and a nightingale. Pate finds Rosey and the Nightingales the most beautiful things in the city.     

Pate then has his face stolen by Jaqen who is secretly Aegon. Aegon is half Dornish and Half Valyrian. Sarella is called the Sphinx because she is of mixed race/ethnicity (a bit of this and a bit of that). Aegon is a Sphinx as well. 

Before entering the Citadel, Sam sees two sphinxe statues, a male and a female. He meets the female Sphinx (Sarella) and the male Sphinx (Pate). This is what Aemon meant when he said the Sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler. 

Here is the most definitive proof. Aegon lived in Ilyrio's Manse for 13 or so years before Dany. When Dany is in Xaro's estate she compares Ilyrio's Manse to that of a SWINEHERD'S HOVEL

Because a swineherd, the secret prince, has been living there all along. 

Darrio is like Jaqen in that they are both colorful Rogues that make girls swoon (Jaqen did this in Harrenhall). They are both killers with dyed hair. Darrio is her type, which makes it easy for Dany to fall in love with her real nephew. Faegon will die before Dany arrives at the hands of Robert Strong. In Exchange Jaqen/Aegon will kill Robert Strong and cast Cersei down (as the prophecy foretold) and strangle the life from her. 

Dany will go mad because Aegon chooses Arya (Lyanna) over her. 

Well, that is the story I'm sticking with. And since the next book isn't coming, it's as legitimate as anything else. Also explains why the Ghost of High Heart was disgusted by Arya since she will help bring about the second Summerhall.  

Edited by butterweedstrover
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At first I thought Cersei's valonqar dream of being tortured was a result of witnessing Qyburn torture the Blue Bard.
 

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Cersei IX

Lord Qyburn ran a hand up the Blue Bard's chest. "Does she take your nipples in her mouth during your love play?" He took one between his thumb and forefinger, and twisted. "Some men enjoy that. Their nipples are as sensitive as a woman's." The razor flashed, the singer shrieked. On his chest a wet red eye wept blood. Cersei felt ill. Part of her wanted to close her eyes, to turn away, to make it stop. But she was the queen and this was treason. Lord Tywin would not have turned away.

Quote

A Feast for Crows - Cersei IX

It proved a waste of breath; as ever, the gods were deaf. Cersei dreamt that she was down in the black cells once again, only this time it was her chained to the wall in place of the singer. She was naked, and blood dripped from the tips of her breasts where the Imp had torn off her nipples with his teeth. "Please," she begged, "please, not my children, do not harm my children." Tyrion only leered at her. He was naked too, covered with coarse hair that made him look more like a monkey than a man. "You shall see them crowned," he said, "and you shall see them die." Then he took her bleeding breast into his mouth and began to suck, and pain sawed through her like a hot knife.

The description of the valonqar's naked body covered with coarse hair sounds more like the hairy Ibbenese.

Then there is Dany's vision in the House of Undying:

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

Not all the doors were closed. I will not look, Dany told herself, but the temptation was too strong.

In one room, a beautiful woman sprawled naked on the floor while four little men crawled over her. They had rattish pointed faces and tiny pink hands, like the servitor who had brought her the glass of shade. One was pumping between her thighs. Another savaged her breasts, worrying at the nipples with his wet red mouth, tearing and chewing.

I recall that there was speculation that the woman was Cersei but this seems to be a future vision considering Cersei's dreams.

The rat servitors show up in the Damphair's vision from the Foresaken chapter as well.  I've wondered for a long time what they are or who they represent.


 

 

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20 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

Anyways, the valonqar (your valonqar was mentioned by one of the bounty hunters so it suggests the is significant) is the same person as "younger and more beautiful".  

In said chapter and before Cersei repeatedly mentions Rhaegar as the beautiful (a term associated with feminine features as opposed to handsome) and goes as far as to call him the most beautiful (even more than Jaime). She enters the tent to ask about her engagement to Rhaegar, Maggy is speaking of another more beautiful than Rhaegar. 

This person is most likely modeled after Rhaegar since beauty is subjective. He is the true born son Aegon who is in the image of his father. Aegon is also the younger brother to Rhaenys, and is memorialized as the younger brother due to his 'death' (never having outgrown that descriptor). He is also of Valyrian blood signifying the usage of a Valyrian word. 

Faegon is not the real heir, but his origin story suggests the truth. The tanner traded arbor gold for the pisswater prince. 

Arbor Gold is symbolizes lies in ASOIAF. Urine is the opposite version of Arbor Gold, and is therefore symbolic of truth. The true prince was traded for lies. Faegon was traded for the real prince. 

Aegon was however moved to Ilyrio's house, and this is signified by the candied ginger which Ilyrio said was his favorite. Yet Young Griff does not eat the ginger. There is also the baby clothes which Septa Lemore tears up. This was evidence of some other prince who occupied the house for thirteen years (which is why Dany/Viserys were not allowed for 13 or so years). 

Arya, while in the house of black and white, says the oldest apprentices were no older than Sansa suggesting that is the average age someone can be accepted into the guild. Aegon was sent to the house of black and white at thirteen so that his identity might be washed and his claim to the throne lost. But he returns to Westeros under the pseudonym Jaqen H'ghar (notice H'ghar is a wordplay on Rhaegar). 

He confronts Ilyrio and Varys, but Varys as Rugen tricks Jaqen/Aegon into a black cell where he would be sent to the wall, another form of exile. This was a rash decision but they cannot have the real Aegon show himself. Arya, while in the dungeons, sees a dead dragon and thinks it is almost alive. Aegon is supposedly dead, but secretly alive.   

Arya, who is presented as an alternative of Lyanna (horse girl vs horseface) saves Jaqen. They, alongside Gendry go to Harrenhall. Arya in this scenario is Lyanna, Gendry is Robert, and Jaqen is Rhaegar. 

Gendry wants Arya to stay away from him, but she eventual goes to Jaqen for help. He is seen leaning on the weeping tower (opposite of the tower of joy as he was the abandoned in favor of Jon) and breaks his speech pattern to pledge himself to Arya under the Harrenhall Heart-Tree:  

A man’s sire is long dead, but did he live, and did you know his name, he would die at your command.” “Swear it,” Arya said. “Swear it by the gods.” “By all the gods of sea and air, and even him of fire, I swear it.” He placed a hand in the mouth of the weirwood. “By the seven new gods and the old gods beyond count, I swear it.” He has sworn. “Even if I named the king . . .” 

Arya says she will name a king, and then names Jaqen H'ghar. 

When he next appears as the alchemist, he is playing the role of a secret king. He is in the citadel looking for the book on how dragons died to hatch his own dragon. With a dragon (whose egg he won from Euron) there would be proof of his lineage. 

The first of his identities, the alchemist, is play on Strider (secretly Aragorn). Strider is at a tavern in a hooded cloak watching our party in Lord of the Rings. When the alchemist (who wares a hooded cloak and watches are party from afar) confronts Pate he calls their group a "Fellowship". 

Sam Tarly also joins that fellowship later as he is ASOIAF's version of Samwise. 

The Alchemist takes the identity of Pate who is a pig boy. In Hans Christian Anderson's fairytale the Swineherd the prince is disguised as a swineherd (pig boy). 

In the fairytale the prince's most prized possessions are a rose and a nightingale. Pate finds Rosey and the Nightingales the most beautiful things in the city.     

Pate then has his face stolen by Jaqen who is secretly Aegon. Aegon is half Dornish and Half Valyrian. Sarella is called the Sphinx because she is of mixed race/ethnicity (a bit of this and a bit of that). Aegon is a Sphinx as well. 

Before entering the Citadel, Sam sees two sphinxe statues, a male and a female. He meets the female Sphinx (Sarella) and the male Sphinx (Pate). This is what Aemon meant when he said the Sphinx is the riddle, not the riddler. 

Here is the most definitive proof. Aegon lived in Ilyrio's Manse for 13 or so years before Dany. When Dany is in Xaro's estate she compares Ilyrio's Manse to that of a SWINEHERD'S HOVEL

Because a swineherd, the secret prince, has been living there all along. 

Darrio is like Jaqen in that they are both colorful Rogues that make girls swoon (Jaqen did this in Harrenhall). They are both killers with dyed hair. Darrio is her type, which makes it easy for Dany to fall in love with her real nephew. Faegon will die before Dany arrives at the hands of Robert Strong. In Exchange Jaqen/Aegon will kill Robert Strong and cast Cersei down (as the prophecy foretold) and strangle the life from her. 

Dany will go mad because Aegon chooses Arya (Lyanna) over her. 

Well, that is the story I'm sticking with. And since the next book isn't coming, it's as legitimate as anything else. Also explains why the Ghost of High Heart was disgusted by Arya since she will help bring about the second Summerhall.  

I love that you went on and on as if you are really trying to prove a well thought theory , weaved a sphinx together and proved the second Summerhall in dream of spring ! this really puts every theory on the forum into perspective:) 

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20 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

I think it's Dany.

Well she certainly casts a shadow that is long and tall and terrible in Essos.  The same could be said of Cersei in Westeros.  I just wonder who is more likely to ally with Euron and whether Dany will have to challenge Euron for the throne..  I suppose it depends on what happens with Victarion when she returns to Meereen and what Moqorro tells her about Euron.  What has Victarion been up to in the meantime?

 

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On 4/28/2022 at 6:28 PM, James Arryn said:

Alternatively it could be another allusion to the woman’s House/sigil as prophecies often seem very preoccupied with heraldry. So, houses which imply shadows and/or white fire, so Targs and…? 

how about Melora Hightower ? her sigil is a tall white tower crowned with flame . not only Euron's on his way to Oldtown ,but she is also totally his type: she's the mad maid and he's the maddest. 

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54 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

how about Melora Hightower ? her sigil is a tall white tower crowned with flame . not only Euron's on his way to Oldtown ,but she is also totally his type: she's the mad maid and he's the maddest. 

Good thought. She’s definitely being set up for some kind of payoff. 

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