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The Valonqar


LynnS
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Using THE is by no way a means to disqualify her brothers. If Maggy had said "your Valonqar", the prophecy would self reduce to 2 candidates. No respectable prophet would be so precise. Neither GRRM.

But Valonqar means either Cersei or her murderer is associated with Valyria. And I don't see anyone else than Targaryen or Blackfyre. Remember the Aerys' bastards speculations. Jaime and Cersei count for 2.

Edited by BalerionTheCat
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1 hour ago, BalerionTheCat said:

Using THE is by no way a means to disqualify her brothers. If Maggy had said "your Valonqar", the prophecy would self reduce to 2 candidates. No respectable prophet would be so precise. Neither GRRM.

But Valonqar means either Cersei or her murderer is associated with Valyria. And I don't see anyone else than Targaryen or Blackfyre. Remember the Aerys' bastards speculations. Jaime and Cersei count for 2.

If I recall correctly, Tyrion is in a part of the world where Valerian is used.  I can easily see him getting, or taking the nickname "little brother" AKA the Valonqar.

I think Cersei will bring about the fulfillment of the prophecy through her attempts to avoid it.  Having targeted Tyrion, I anticipate Tyrion will target her right back.  He already hates and despises her.  And it's the sort of thing I can see GRRM doing - creating a self-fulfilling prophecy.

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1 hour ago, Nevets said:

I think Cersei will bring about the fulfillment of the prophecy through her attempts to avoid it.

Yes. Cersei is fulfilling the prophecy. She started the day she received it. By killing her friend. As Maggy said she would die this same day.

But I would rather put my bet on Jaime. Tyrion so much wants to kill her. He will be denied that.

 

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On 9/4/2022 at 1:01 AM, The Mourning Knight said:

I think it’s a stretch for Maggy to identify the son of the person she is talking to as the little brother. I get that it is the only logical conclusion you can come to when you treat the word “the” as you are doing, but I don’t think it’s necessary for you to interpret “the” in this fashion. 

That being said, I really like your idea about the hands being the station of office rather than actual human hands. That twist feel very GRRM and I definitely want to chew on it for a while. 

That's the whole idea.  She basically is telling Cersei her future.  And no matter the info Cersei has, Cersei can't avoid it.  The only reason the conclusion isn't obvious, is that they substitute an odd word for "little brother" and the fact that the "little brother" of Cersei's children would have already been dead, when he chokes the life out of her.

So let's take out the silly word for a second and replace it with it's meaning:

Quote

Three (children) for you,

Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds,

And when your tears have drowned you, the little brother shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you.

It becomes a bit more obvious.  There isn't any reason that Maggy wouldn't have told Cersei that "your Little Brother" if the volonqar was Jaime or Tyrion.  After all she already talked about "your tears" and "your pale white throat".  There is no particular reason she wouldn't have said your volonqar.  So the next obvious subject matter volonqar would be referencing would be Cersei's three children.  

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1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

That's the whole idea.  She basically is telling Cersei her future.  And no matter the info Cersei has, Cersei can't avoid it.  The only reason the conclusion isn't obvious, is that they substitute an odd word for "little brother" and the fact that the "little brother" of Cersei's children would have already been dead, when he chokes the life out of her.

So let's take out the silly word for a second and replace it with it's meaning:

It becomes a bit more obvious.  There isn't any reason that Maggy wouldn't have told Cersei that "your Little Brother" if the volonqar was Jaime or Tyrion.  After all she already talked about "your tears" and "your pale white throat".  There is no particular reason she wouldn't have said your volonqar.  So the next obvious subject matter volonqar would be referencing would be Cersei's three children.  

No, no. You’re missing my point. I’m not talking about Maggy’s use of “the” vs. “your”. Leave that aside for a second.

if she is talking to Cersei about her son, Tommen what’s strange is for her to identify him as a brother at all. It’s like if I was telling you about your cousin, but kept referring to him as “the son,” technically it would be true, every one has parents, but odd.

I’ll say this about your theory though, it’s not outlandish in the cryptic, Ben Kenobi (“certain point of view”) sense. As you present your theory, it’s plausible on the grounds that all prophecy requires some interpretation.

But going back to “the” vs “your”, in light of all I have said so far, it is strange for Maggy to be so precise and rigid in how she uses “the” and then so loose in how she represents the familial relationship of the two most significant people in the prophecy. 

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THE Valonqar still sounds like a title to me rather than a sibling association.  There are additional definitions of brother.   Borroq refers to Jon as a brother.  The valonqar might be someone who is considered a brother in this sense.

The Citadel has been described as an analogue for the Vatican and although maesters don't refer to their order specifically as a brotherhood, it has the characteristics of one.

Maggy may be referring to someone who is like a brother to her as a mage or maegi, mispronounced as Maggy.  Someone who she calls  little brother/valonqar in relation to herself.  Not someone actually related to her but someone who belongs to the brotherhood of mages or magic practitioners.

Someone is messing with Cersei's dreams.  Perhaps someone with a glass candle.

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20 hours ago, LynnS said:

THE Valonqar still sounds like a title to me rather than a sibling association.  There are additional definitions of brother.   Borroq refers to Jon as a brother.  The valonqar might be someone who is considered a brother in this sense.

The Citadel has been described as an analogue for the Vatican and although maesters don't refer to their order specifically as a brotherhood, it has the characteristics of one.

Maggy may be referring to someone who is like a brother to her as a mage or maegi, mispronounced as Maggy.  Someone who she calls  little brother/valonqar in relation to herself.  Not someone actually related to her but someone who belongs to the brotherhood of mages or magic practitioners.

Someone is messing with Cersei's dreams.  Perhaps someone with a glass candle.

I agree with the part about it being a title, as the wording stands out too much for this to be an accident. But GRRM does leave it leave it open to interpretation - most importantly that of Cersei. And I think in terms of her story, this misunderstanding of interpretation is the key to her arc. She worries herself sick about who the Valonqar will be, and I'm sure GRRM will get  lot of dramatic mileage out of her realising that there are all these 'little brothers' in her vicinity, thereby growing increasingly more paranoid/insane.

It's for this very reason that it likely isn't any of these names that have been bandied around the forums. It's like we're in Cersei's head sometimes, with all the theorising :) I did find this post from a few yeas back however: 

 

 .. in which it is suggested that the Valonqar might be a foreign nickname for a type of poison, much as we have the Strangler and the Tears of Lys. It even invokes the passage where Cressen dies choking, feeling metaphorical  'hands' around his neck. All very symbolic, and all very GRRM so far. 

The best part is that this theory does not discount anyone's opinions. They could all still come into play in Cersei's demise, and make her end even more tragic. If we assume that she does see all her children die, and her reign of power is about to end, then we are faced with a Cersei backed into a corner somehow. Paranoid and fearful, she may hear Jamie coming for her and presume him to be the 'little brother' finally come to kill her in a rage (for all the valid reasons stated in posts above). 

However, consider the irony of her poisoning herself to avert a more violent death, only for Jamie to find her dying and tell her he is not, after all, there to kill her. Imagine the tears that would flow. Perhaps Jamie seeks a maester to help to save her. But then in her dying moments she hears her poison being named as 'the Little Brother'. She is beyond saving, and has played herself.

I just kind of think this death for Cersei is the most dramatically fulfilling, as it allows for the Jamie = valonqar theory to play out right until her dying moments. She's killed by her own paranoia.

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18 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

.. in which it is suggested that the Valonqar might be a foreign nickname for a type of poison, much as we have the Strangler and the Tears of Lys. It even invokes the passage where Cressen dies choking, feeling metaphorical  'hands' around his neck. All very symbolic, and all very GRRM so far. 

Yes, I wouldn't take this outcome off the table.  It could go any number of ways including Cersei taking her own life.  At this point; I have my doubts that it will be Tyrion or Jaimie.  

We are told when this will happen:

Quote

 

A Feast for Crows - Cersei VIII

That made no sense to Cersei. Her thumb was throbbing where she'd cut it, and her blood was dripping on the carpet. How could that be? she wanted to ask, but she was done with her questions.

The old woman was not done with her, however. "Gold shall be their crowns and gold their shrouds," she said. "And when your tears have drowned you, the valonqar shall wrap his hands about your pale white throat and choke the life from you."

 

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Tyrion IX

Then they brought forth Grand Maester Pycelle, leaning heavily on a twisted cane and shaking as he walked, a few white hairs sprouting from his long chicken's neck. He had grown too frail to stand, so the judges permitted a chair to be brought in for him, and a table as well. On the table were laid a number of small jars. Pycelle was pleased to put a name to each.

"Greycap," he said in a quavery voice, "from the toadstool. Nightshade, sweetsleep, demon's dance. This is blindeye. Widow's blood, this one is called, for the color. A cruel potion. It shuts down a man's bladder and bowels, until he drowns in his own poisons. This wolfsbane, here basilisk venom, and this one the tears of Lys. Yes. I know them all. The Imp Tyrion Lannister stole them from my chambers, when he had me falsely imprisoned."

 

It certainly seems that Cersei could drown herself in her own poisons.

While we are certainly being set up to think that Tyrion will kill Cersei; it's worth noting that some Maesters are well versed in the use of poisons.

Edited by LynnS
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