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House of the Dragon Budget Under $20 Million Per Episode


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1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

If the Nymeria show really is called 10,000 Ships, how much do you want to bet people will assume it’s a show about the Trojan War? :P

Between the fact that the Trojan War number is 1,000 and that most people don't even know of the phrase (or of the Trojan War, for that matter...), I'd guess most people won't assume.

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4 hours ago, Ran said:

Between the fact that the Trojan War number is 1,000 and that most people don't even know of the phrase (or of the Trojan War, for that matter...), I'd guess most people won't assume.

Haha I realize the numbers aren’t the same. But one does make me think of the other.

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On 4/24/2022 at 7:59 PM, EggBlue said:

doesn't it have more to do with how their line ended? I mean .. yes, Tudor line survived but is that why people don't care about the dynasty dying out in fictions? for me , Elizabeth I shows/books/.. are interesting because she was kinda in her prime when she died . Daenerys ,on the other hand, was turned into this freedom icon who suddenly became a mad woman needing to be put down by a lover's dagger in what seemed like less than a fortnight. if Daenerys was given a satisfying end (not necessary a happy or heroic one.. maybe something like Egg's tragedy of Summerhall) , people would be excited to see Targaryen shows .

The history of the Tudors or any other historical royal dynasty is not the history of a violent deposition and a subsequent drawn-out (and at times ridiculous) failed attempt to restore them to the throne. And they are, of course, also real world figures which gives them a completely different appeal.

But if you have a series of books where the core plot element is restauration, revenge and payback. For the Targaryens that's their story from the start, but it is also the Stark story as the books progress, starting with Ned's murder, the burning of Winterfell, culiminating in the Red Wedding - and their story also ended with an effective end of their line (Rickon is dead, Bran impotent, Arya gone, and Sansa unmarried). For the Targaryens it is worse with Daenerys dead, and Jon an obscure guy beyond the Wall whose hypothetical bastards are not even worth to be mentioned.

As things stand now, the Targaryens were not just historical failures and jokes (the entire Dance is just them fucking things up for themselves), they were also never really important in the magical department. If Dany/Jon had been really crucial in defeating the Others but ended up not surviving/ruling then the family as such would have had some real importance. They wouldn't have just been one among many failed royal dynasties.

And then you have the recycled setting - another ambitious woman marrying into the royal family pushing for her children to take the throne, another maternal grandfather who served as Hand for decades, another KG with a weird sex life, etc.

This isn't a new story. And I'm really not sure that folks actually want to watch GoT 2.0 ... 'now with more dragons, another mad dragon queen, another blond asshole prince.'

This can fly, but it can sink just as easily.

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13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

This isn't a new story. And I'm really not sure that folks actually want to watch GoT 2.0 ... 'now with more dragons, another mad dragon queen, another blond asshole prince.'

Dont forget the bastard children.

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13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The history of the Tudors or any other historical royal dynasty is not the history of a violent deposition and a subsequent drawn-out (and at times ridiculous) failed attempt to restore them to the throne. And they are, of course, also real world figures which gives them a completely different appeal.

But if you have a series of books where the core plot element is restauration, revenge and payback. For the Targaryens that's their story from the start, but it is also the Stark story as the books progress, starting with Ned's murder, the burning of Winterfell, culiminating in the Red Wedding - and their story also ended with an effective end of their line (Rickon is dead, Bran impotent, Arya gone, and Sansa unmarried). For the Targaryens it is worse with Daenerys dead, and Jon an obscure guy beyond the Wall whose hypothetical bastards are not even worth to be mentioned.

As things stand now, the Targaryens were not just historical failures and jokes (the entire Dance is just them fucking things up for themselves), they were also never really important in the magical department. If Dany/Jon had been really crucial in defeating the Others but ended up not surviving/ruling then the family as such would have had some real importance. They wouldn't have just been one among many failed royal dynasties.

And then you have the recycled setting - another ambitious woman marrying into the royal family pushing for her children to take the throne, another maternal grandfather who served as Hand for decades, another KG with a weird sex life, etc.

This isn't a new story. And I'm really not sure that folks actually want to watch GoT 2.0 ... 'now with more dragons, another mad dragon queen, another blond asshole prince.'

This can fly, but it can sink just as easily.

I’m thinking that whatever GRRM has planned for the Others, it’s much less climactic than what we’re expecting, which is why the show added the Night King and admittedly invented having him slain by Arya. 

With the prophecy that Azor Ahai would be born of Aerys and Rhaella’s line, I could see George pulling a twist where both Azor Ahai and the darkness that AA has to slay (Dany) were born of this union—the prophecy would both create the problem and the solution, thus rendering it moot. In theory, this is a great twist. It’s the execution (no pun intended) that will make or break it.

I agree that the Dance may come across as a pale shadow of GOT. I think the dragons and sex scenes will distract people for a while (which is why I think at least the first season will do well) but I can’t see how the ending will be well-received. One of the reasons why Dany was so popular was because she became this kind of power fantasy for viewers—the sexy desert queen with total control over three badass dragons, endless mic drop moments, and beautiful men constantly throwing themselves at her feet. Season 8 ruined the fantasy. I don’t expect Rhaenyra to be quite as idealized, but then again, her being more realistic might be a turn-off.

It’ll be interesting to see how the streaming wars (combined with the worsening state of the economy) affects the show. What’s the current flagship show on HBO? I’ve heard about Succession, Euphoria, and Righteous Gemstones, but I have yet to meet anyone who actually watches any of them.

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22 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It’ll be interesting to see how the streaming wars (combined with the worsening state of the economy) affects the show.

Streaming wars will end in disaster for some studios. Everyone is focusing on big budgets tv shows that they hope will materialise into more subscriptions.

But their aren’t enough consumers for all these studios to share. Some of these studios will feel the pinch of their streaming gamble.

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1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I’m thinking that whatever GRRM has planned for the Others, it’s much less climactic than what we’re expecting, which is why the show added the Night King and admittedly invented having him slain by Arya. 

Nah, the Lich King of the show just seemed to be a childish videogame-like big bad addition. And the Others clearly are *the big threat* in the books. They are the long game, the threat that is built up since the prologue of the first book.

Daenerys is not likely to work as *an evil threat* in the books, considering she is a POV character. I mean, at this point the author and we readers have just to make up the worst possible misunderstandings and accidents for there to be a real war between Aegon and Daenerys ... but to have Daenerys as an antagonist for all the good guys in the books is simply something that cannot really work in the setting as it is.

Not to mention that at this point literally nobody would care much about mass executions or a dragon attack on a big city. We already got the Red Wedding, and we getting the merciless revenge of Lady Stoneheart and what ever Euron and Stannis and Littlefinger have still in store for the good guys.

Mind you, there might still be political conflict between Daenerys and other people in Westeros while they fight the Others, but the constellations from the show just don't make any sense in the books.

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I agree that the Dance may come across as a pale shadow of GOT. I think the dragons and sex scenes will distract people for a while (which is why I think at least the first season will do well) but I can’t see how the ending will be well-received. One of the reasons why Dany was so popular was because she became this kind of power fantasy for viewers—the sexy desert queen with total control over three badass dragons, endless mic drop moments, and beautiful men constantly throwing themselves at her feet. Season 8 ruined the fantasy. I don’t expect Rhaenyra to be quite as idealized, but then again, her being more realistic might be a turn-off.

Well, the first and second season are actually the only seasons of HotD which have some potential to tell interesting stories. The first because we get sexy court intrigue, basically, which can be interesting, and the second because the beginning of the Dance is pretty interesting.

But the middle and, especially, the end is just boring and anticlimactic as hell. The big battles/ugly things mostly happen in the first phase of the war, with the deciding battle of the war involving neither dragons nor Targaryens.

If we imagine the final seasons of GoT (or the last books of ASoIaF) to focus on crippled dragons and crippled kings and frustrated women to scheme to backstab and poison each other and the guy to inherit everything will be a traumatized boy with pretty much no lines ... then this is not going to be the scenario we would have expected when starting watching the show or reading the books.

And it won't be what the viewers of HotD expects. Even if they expect the dragons to die, they won't expect the kind of anticlimactic stuff FaB gave us.

As I've said repeatedly - when George wrote that stuff he seemed to have tried to really invent a historical war - a war like it might have happened or did happen in real life, not something that was great novel or TV show material.

Just think about the endless and ultimately completely pointless march of the Hightower army, Aemond having the greatest dragon in the world and doing literally nothing important with it, there being many battles which just kill people but are in no way decisive, folks popping up and being the heroes of one great battle only to die unceremoniously in the next.

To make this whole thing work, to make the Dance of the Dragons work as a war story, there have to be massive changes, I think. At least if you want people to continue to watch. We cannot have Alicent Hightower in golden chains for entire seasons, we cannot have Aegon II disappear for an equally long time, we cannot have unclear or weird motivations for crucial characters, etc.

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23 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, the first and second season are actually the only seasons of HotD which have some potential to tell interesting stories. The first because we get sexy court intrigue, basically, which can be interesting, and the second because the beginning of the Dance is pretty interesting.

But the middle and, especially, the end is just boring and anticlimactic as hell. The big battles/ugly things mostly happen in the first phase of the war, with the deciding battle of the war involving neither dragons nor Targaryens.

Which again begs the question: Why did HBO decide to make a show about the Dance instead of any other period in Westerosi history? I know that other shows are planned, but HotD will clearly be their flagship for the next several years.

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14 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Why did HBO decide to make a show about the Dance instead of any other period in Westerosi history? I know that other shows are planned, but HotD will clearly be their flagship for the next several years.

I expect the pitch from George and Ryan Condal satisfied them that this show had potential to run several seasons. At the same time, it is almost certainly not the case that they intend it to run 7-8 seasons as GoT did. They know it's a more compact story, and a benefit of that is that while it runs they can get other things developed and on air, and by running 3-4 seasons they avoid the contract renegotiations that push salaries into the stratosphere after the 5th year (it's why Netflix keeps canning most of its shows after 3 years).

There is definitely scope to add an additional season if they decide to move into Aegon III's regency, but the Dance-proper can certainly fill 3 fast-paced seasons, or 4 with a little more room to breath. 5 is on the outside and my require pulling in some of the Aegon III regency material as well, IMO.

 

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I can understand why the show will be anti climatic for viewers. And it make sense since the ending wont be as satisfying as people expected.

So I’m curious what time periods would make for a great tv show that could rival other great shows.

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11 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I don't think the regency of a king who even in the source material is described as dull would make for riveting television.

The king is a boy. It's the people around him, and their machinations, that are interesting.

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49 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

I can understand why the show will be anti climatic for viewers. And it make sense since the ending wont be as satisfying as people expected.

So I’m curious what time periods would make for a great tv show that could rival other great shows.

This is why I keep suggesting Westerosi Tudors with Aegon IV. (If someone could mention this to George, I feel like we’d get FnB2 by the end of the year lol. He loves The Tudors. The original Dany was one of the wives, and Natalie Dormer played Anne Boleyn). I think that Daeron I and Baelor would also be interesting, when you consider the wacky cast of characters they’d have around them. 
 

1 hour ago, Ran said:

I expect the pitch from George and Ryan Condal satisfied them that this show had potential to run several seasons. At the same time, it is almost certainly not the case that they intend it to run 7-8 seasons as GoT did. They know it's a more compact story, and a benefit of that is that while it runs they can get other things developed and on air, and by running 3-4 seasons they avoid the contract renegotiations that push salaries into the stratosphere after the 5th year (it's why Netflix keeps canning most of its shows after 3 years).

There is definitely scope to add an additional season if they decide to move into Aegon III's regency, but the Dance-proper can certainly fill 3 fast-paced seasons, or 4 with a little more room to breath. 5 is on the outside and my require pulling in some of the Aegon III regency material as well, IMO.

 

I had expected that it would be five seasons, but I agree that three or four seasons would be better. It’s a shame they’re apparently cramming all the lead-up to the Dance into one season, since so much happens during that period. Not to mention all the characters they’ll lose: Laena, Laenor, Lyonel, Harwin, Viserys, probably Luke. Then Rhaenys and Jace die early on in the war. 
 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Nah, the Lich King of the show just seemed to be a childish videogame-like big bad addition. And the Others clearly are *the big threat* in the books. They are the long game, the threat that is built up since the prologue of the first book.

Daenerys is not likely to work as *an evil threat* in the books, considering she is a POV character. I mean, at this point the author and we readers have just to make up the worst possible misunderstandings and accidents for there to be a real war between Aegon and Daenerys ... but to have Daenerys as an antagonist for all the good guys in the books is simply something that cannot really work in the setting as it is.

Not to mention that at this point literally nobody would care much about mass executions or a dragon attack on a big city. We already got the Red Wedding, and we getting the merciless revenge of Lady Stoneheart and what ever Euron and Stannis and Littlefinger have still in store for the good guys.

Mind you, there might still be political conflict between Daenerys and other people in Westeros while they fight the Others, but the constellations from the show just don't make any sense in the books.

Well, the first and second season are actually the only seasons of HotD which have some potential to tell interesting stories. The first because we get sexy court intrigue, basically, which can be interesting, and the second because the beginning of the Dance is pretty interesting.

But the middle and, especially, the end is just boring and anticlimactic as hell. The big battles/ugly things mostly happen in the first phase of the war, with the deciding battle of the war involving neither dragons nor Targaryens.

If we imagine the final seasons of GoT (or the last books of ASoIaF) to focus on crippled dragons and crippled kings and frustrated women to scheme to backstab and poison each other and the guy to inherit everything will be a traumatized boy with pretty much no lines ... then this is not going to be the scenario we would have expected when starting watching the show or reading the books.

And it won't be what the viewers of HotD expects. Even if they expect the dragons to die, they won't expect the kind of anticlimactic stuff FaB gave us.

As I've said repeatedly - when George wrote that stuff he seemed to have tried to really invent a historical war - a war like it might have happened or did happen in real life, not something that was great novel or TV show material.

Just think about the endless and ultimately completely pointless march of the Hightower army, Aemond having the greatest dragon in the world and doing literally nothing important with it, there being many battles which just kill people but are in no way decisive, folks popping up and being the heroes of one great battle only to die unceremoniously in the next.

To make this whole thing work, to make the Dance of the Dragons work as a war story, there have to be massive changes, I think. At least if you want people to continue to watch. We cannot have Alicent Hightower in golden chains for entire seasons, we cannot have Aegon II disappear for an equally long time, we cannot have unclear or weird motivations for crucial characters, etc.

There’s no point in including Aegon unless he’s an antagonist for Dany.

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1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

This is why I keep suggesting Westerosi Tudors with Aegon IV. (If someone could mention this to George, I feel like we’d get FnB2 by the end of the year lol. He loves The Tudors. The original Dany was one of the wives, and Natalie Dormer played Anne Boleyn). I think that Daeron I and Baelor would also be interesting, when you consider the wacky cast of characters they’d have around them.

Oh yes I like this idea. It would be full of courtly intrigue. Especially when you have aegon the unworthy stirring shit up.

Sadly this means allot of excellent dialogue writing and intelligent plot creation. And their are very little writers that I would say are capable of this. If GRRM wrote a book  for aegon iv reign, than it would be viable.

The period of the dance provides the producers with an easier slate due to it being a big war.

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1 minute ago, The Young Maester said:

Oh yes I like this idea. It would be full of courtly intrigue. Especially when you have aegon the unworthy stirring shit up.

Sadly this means allot of excellent dialogue writing and intelligent plot creation. And their are very little writers that I would say are capable of this. If GRRM wrote a book  for aegon iv reign, than it would be viable.

The period of the dance provides the producers with an easier slate due to it being a big war.

They would have to get a writer that hasn’t written that sort of stuff before. Or maybe they should hire Aaron Sorkin :laugh: He writes lofty dialogue.

4 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

Streaming wars will end in disaster for some studios. Everyone is focusing on big budgets tv shows that they hope will materialise into more subscriptions.

But their aren’t enough consumers for all these studios to share. Some of these studios will feel the pinch of their streaming gamble.

With inflation being as bad as it is, I suspect many people are going to be cutting back on streaming this year. I love how there are now apps that remind you when to cancel your subscriptions.

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It definitely would be a golden goose. But I wouldn’t see them risking it due to the lack of book material. They learned with GOT that without book material it ends in disaster (unless you have great writers).

House of the dragon is a safer bet since its full of dragons, battles, and all the shenanigans that make it into an action fest. Plus overall plot is already their. All they have to worry about is the dialogue and maybe creating some new plots which wouldnt be as hard as if they did an unworthy show.

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4 hours ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Which again begs the question: Why did HBO decide to make a show about the Dance instead of any other period in Westerosi history? I know that other shows are planned, but HotD will clearly be their flagship for the next several years.

I expect George wanted that because it is the most detailed - and still most interesting - historical era he has actually fleshed out to some degree.

The audience - just as the readership back before this came out - would expect this Dance of the Dragons to be a really great spectacle ... but it isn't. It is a serious of badly planned, badly executed campaigns and a considerable number of pointless battles where the dragonriders all desperately try to get themselves killed (Rhaenys, Daemon & Aemond, Addam Velaryon, Joffrey Velaryon, Baela).

If that is adapted faithfully, it might be unintentionally funny a lot of times (you can almost see Corlys Velaryon wringing his hands: 'But the children! Somebody must think about the children!')

The Regency material would also make a very weird epilogue. Most characters there are not, in fact, Targaryens, and they are also mostly secondary or tertiary Dance characters who suddenly are prominent. Who cares about the Tully boys, Peakes gang of weirdos, Peake himself, or the unimpressive regents?

Not to mention that George didn't finish the story there. We have no idea what happens to Unwin Peake, Baela and Rhaena, Alyn Velaryon, or, most importantly, Alys Rivers and her pretender boy.

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

There’s no point in including Aegon unless he’s an antagonist for Dany.

Most likely he will be her enemy, but that doesn't make him or his gang the heroes of the story. They are all tertiary characters, and I think we all agree that we don't really care all that much whether Jon Connington can avenge his non-lover Rhaegar or not.

Equally, I don't think many people would view it as particularly cruel or evil if Daenerys were to capture and execute Aegon. He isn't a POV nor a particularly well-established character at this point.

The idea that Daenerys will become some kind of all-out antagonist, i.e. the enemy of all the good guys/good POVs in the books is not that likely ... or rather it would be very difficult to turn her into such a character, especially in just two books.

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