House of the Dragon Budget Under $20 Million Per Episode

[The Bard of Banefort]

1 hour ago, The Young Maester said:

It definitely would be a golden goose. But I wouldn’t see them risking it due to the lack of book material. They learned with GOT that without book material it ends in disaster (unless you have great writers).

House of the dragon is a safer bet since its full of dragons, battles, and all the shenanigans that make it into an action fest. Plus overall plot is already their. All they have to worry about is the dialogue and maybe creating some new plots which wouldnt be as hard as if they did an unworthy show.

I think George will be able to finish FB2 (hopefully). After that, they would need a writer who’s worked on period pieces/dramas, not Wolverine or Rampage. 

Thay said, I think there might be some Targaryen fatigue after HOTD, especially if they go through with Dunk and Egg. I think eventually people are going to have trouble telling them all apart. 

[EggBlue]

4 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think George will be able to finish FB2 (hopefully). After that, they would need a writer who’s worked on period pieces/dramas, not Wolverine or Rampage. 

if George finishes FnB 2 right till the end of first Blackfyre rebellion , late AegonIV reign +first Blackfyre rebellion could make an entertaining movie/ mini series.

AegonIV 's reign would be fun to watch too but a horny moody king : fine jouster at youth , a fatty by the end; playboy all along. familiar? 

[The Bard of Banefort]

6 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I expect George wanted that because it is the most detailed - and still most interesting - historical era he has actually fleshed out to some degree.

The audience - just as the readership back before this came out - would expect this Dance of the Dragons to be a really great spectacle ... but it isn't. It is a serious of badly planned, badly executed campaigns and a considerable number of pointless battles where the dragonriders all desperately try to get themselves killed (Rhaenys, Daemon & Aemond, Addam Velaryon, Joffrey Velaryon, Baela).

If that is adapted faithfully, it might be unintentionally funny a lot of times (you can almost see Corlys Velaryon wringing his hands: 'But the children! Somebody must think about the children!')

The Regency material would also make a very weird epilogue. Most characters there are not, in fact, Targaryens, and they are also mostly secondary or tertiary Dance characters who suddenly are prominent. Who cares about the Tully boys, Peakes gang of weirdos, Peake himself, or the unimpressive regents?

Not to mention that George didn't finish the story there. We have no idea what happens to Unwin Peake, Baela and Rhaena, Alyn Velaryon, or, most importantly, Alys Rivers and her pretender boy.

Most likely he will be her enemy, but that doesn't make him or his gang the heroes of the story. They are all tertiary characters, and I think we all agree that we don't really care all that much whether Jon Connington can avenge his non-lover Rhaegar or not.

Equally, I don't think many people would view it as particularly cruel or evil if Daenerys were to capture and execute Aegon. He isn't a POV nor a particularly well-established character at this point.

The idea that Daenerys will become some kind of all-out antagonist, i.e. the enemy of all the good guys/good POVs in the books is not that likely ... or rather it would be very difficult to turn her into such a character, especially in just two books.

The House of the Undying showed the mummer’s dragon among a cheering crowd. So chances are he will be beloved among the smallfolk. 

I agree that the Dance is weirdly anticlimactic. They could make some big changes (personally, I’d prefer if they kept Jace around longer) but George’s comment about keeping things canonical makes me think that they’re going to try to stay faithful to the source material. Maybe Ran’s right and it’ll be a short run.

[The Young Maester]

19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The Regency material would also make a very weird epilogue. Most characters there are not, in fact, Targaryens, and they are also mostly secondary or tertiary Dance characters who suddenly are prominent. Who cares about the Tully boys, Peakes gang of weirdos, Peake himself, or the unimpressive regents?

Yes I agree, seeing most of the main characters dead by this point is sort of a turn off. They probably should establish the character arks of the lads by the first season, because it would all feel shallow if most of the regency age characters are just a bunch of unknowns.

I can easily see people falling in love with the riverlander boys, and the Blackwood girl (forgot her name). Boys too young to be thrown into the hellpits of war but they somehow survive and their compassionate nature will make the audience adore them.

It all depends on how they flesh them out, if they focus too much on the targaryens it wouldnt be a great ending. 

19 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not to mention that George didn't finish the story there. We have no idea what happens to Unwin Peake, Baela and Rhaena, Alyn Velaryon, or, most importantly, Alys Rivers and her pretender boy.

Maybe its possible George will release Fb2 before the last season. It would generate allot of money.

15 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think George will be able to finish FB2 (hopefully). After that, they would need a writer who’s worked on period pieces/dramas, not Wolverine or Rampage. 

Thay said, I think there might be some Targaryen fatigue after HOTD, especially if they go through with Dunk and Egg. I think eventually people are going to have trouble telling them all apart. 

All the unnecessary incest might be a bit too much for the audience. We will see how people react to HOTD. If the incest is too much then hbo will have to find another way.

[Lord Varys]

9 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The House of the Undying showed the mummer’s dragon among a cheering crowd. So chances are he will be beloved among the smallfolk.

Oh, well, he will have some success and be popular ... but Daenerys is the Slayer of Lies, not Aegon. He is one of the lies, so ultimately neither a good good nor a success as a pretender/savior.

And regardless how much Varys' propaganda effort will make Aegon shine in the eyes of the public ... he isn't the Father of Dragons ... in fact, he doesn't even have a dragon. Dragons are power, especially if they are alive and *right there*, in front of your eyes.

Once Daenerys is there she will be the better Targaryen pretender, never mind her being a woman. If Aegon hatched himself his own dragon he might be able to overcome that problem, but all the foreshadowing in ADwD indicates that Aegon will only play with/get elephants, not dragons. And if her were to claim one of Dany's dragons he would still be the guy profiting from the miracle-working Mother of Dragons, not establish himself as her equal. Although it would make him look more impressive.

9 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I agree that the Dance is weirdly anticlimactic. They could make some big changes (personally, I’d prefer if they kept Jace around longer) but George’s comment about keeping things canonical makes me think that they’re going to try to stay faithful to the source material. Maybe Ran’s right and it’ll be a short run.

A short run is not making it likely they will stay all that faithful to the source material. Rather, it would indicate they streamline things, and merge or completely cut certain characters, events, and plotlines.

For instance - they could completely cut the Ironborn side story. It is pretty much irrelevant for the main plot.

10 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Yes I agree, seeing most of the main characters dead by this point is sort of a turn off. They probably should establish the character arks of the lads by the first season, because it would all feel shallow if most of the regency age characters are just a bunch of unknowns.

Well, the very nature of the plot as presented is that lots and lots of characters just show up for five minutes, have some good lines and then they are off the stage again, many of the them permanently. Others because they go back home and nobody cares what Cregan Stark is doing all day.

To repeat that in the show would be very weird, so one would imagine that, for instance, Baela and Rhaena are much more important in the show than they are in the book.

Unwin Peake is a character they could introduce in season 2, so he wouldn't be that unknown, and Tyland Lannister will even be in season 1 ... but then, the guy spends most of the war in the a torture cell and only does really important things as Aegon III's blind and disfigured Hand. Chances are not that likely that he will spend as much time in a torture cell in the show - just as Rhaenyra is not likely going to be shown as a broken woman we are only going to see occassionally weeping in her chambers for an entire year of the war .

10 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

I can easily see people falling in love with the riverlander boys, and the Blackwood girl (forgot her name). Boys too young to be thrown into the hellpits of war but they somehow survive and their compassionate nature will make the audience adore them.

Yes, but the Tullys only join the war at the very end, i.e. they would only show up properly in the last season depicting the actual Dance. And Kermit and Oscar are only the replacement of their dad Elmo who is going to die unceremoniously after Second Tumbleton from drinking infected water.

Benjicot Blackwood and Black Aly are another matter, but they disappear during the Regency era, so they are not that important, either.

If there was Regency stuff I'd say that we would have to see Aegon's half-sisters and Alyn Velaryon on the regency council, replacing some of the dudes who have little to no lines.

10 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

It all depends on how they flesh them out, if they focus too much on the targaryens it wouldnt be a great ending.

Well, there isn't much to focus on in that department. Jaehaera is literally non-existent as a political player, Aegon III never says anything important ... and the girls are sidelined and/or leave court.

10 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Maybe its possible George will release Fb2 before the last season. It would generate allot of money.

He at least should write up and publish the reign of Aegon III so that the writers of the show could include the conclusion of the Alys Rivers and Unwin Peake (I assume he will eventually pay for his crimes) stories if they so choose.

From a narrative viewpoint, FaB has no proper ending. Making a cut when Aegon III comes of age can make sense from a historian's POV (or simply because the book was getting to big) but there is no closure there.

If you look at the book then the deaths of Alysanne and Jaehaerys I would have been much better points to end such a book. There one could say an entire era ended, with power being handed to a grandson of the Old King.

The Regency material is just a monstrously blown-up epilogue to the Dance, narrative-wise. And one would have liked it if the author had focused as much on Rhaenyra or Aegon II or Alicent as he focused on the exploits of Unwin Peake or Tyland Lannister.

10 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

All the unnecessary incest might be a bit too much for the audience. We will see how people react to HOTD. If the incest is too much then hbo will have to find another way.

They first have to properly establish the incest. There was pretty much only Lannister incest in GoT, and there isn't that much incest in the Dance era, either (I'd prefer it if Aemma Arryn were turned into Aemma Targaryen, a sister or aunt of Viserys I), aside from Aegon II and Helaena. All the other matches are avuncular or cousin marriages.

[The Bard of Banefort]

If Dany is able to easily overcome Aegon, then there was no point in including him in the first place. She already has plenty of potential antagonists: the Lannisters and Tyrells, Euron, Stannis, possibly even Jon. Aegon is only necessary if he presents a legitimate threat to her claim. We’ve already seen through Quentyn and Arianne how easily Dany is being maligned in the public. She’s the scary dragon lady who murdered her brother, feeds her enemies to her dragons, and probably bathes in the blood of virgins (I don’t remember if that was one of the rumors about Dany in ADWD, but I’m sure it will be). The Undying have told her she must slay the lie of the mummer’s dragon, but Quaithe also told her not to trust Quentyn, and we know that was bad advice. Just look at all the trouble Melisandre has caused by misinterpreting her visions. Dany will fight and eventually defeat Aegon, yes, but it will have a cost.

We’re desensitized to the uncle-niece incest because it’s not as bad as all the sibling marriages in the books, but I think a lot of viewers will be grossed out, both because we may see Daemon grooming young Rhaenyra, and because (forgive me) Daemon isn’t quite as pretty as Jon Snow. Even still, I remember some show fans finding Jonerys pretty gross because of the incest.

[EggBlue]

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

If Dany is able to easily overcome Aegon, then there was no point in including him in the first place. She already has plenty of potential antagonists: the Lannisters and Tyrells, Euron, Stannis, possibly even Jon. Aegon is only necessary if he presents a legitimate threat to her claim. We’ve already seen through Quentyn and Arianne how easily Dany is being maligned in the public. She’s the scary dragon lady who murdered her brother, feeds her enemies to her dragons, and probably bathes in the blood of virgins (I don’t remember if that was one of the rumors about Dany in ADWD, but I’m sure it will be). The Undying have told her she must slay the lie of the mummer’s dragon, but Quaithe also told her not to trust Quentyn, and we know that was bad advice. Just look at all the trouble Melisandre has caused by misinterpreting her visions. Dany will fight and eventually defeat Aegon, yes, but it will have a cost.

that's why I think it's a better story if Aegon's really Aegon. with Aegon being the real deal , his defeat and execution by Dany will be a terrible personal tragedy . she'd be killing her last family (factoring Jon) for some half prophecy... even if Aegon be the best king Westeros has seen  (which he won't ) and he'd be madly popular with the nobles (which he won't if only because of GC) and he'll stay the perfect beloved by smallfolk king ( which won't be for so long, as long as Jon Con's descent to madness and triggered trauma is a clue) , then with being a pretender, most readers cannot help but think that Dany had it right after all . even if Aegon will be a perfect king that nobles and commoners alike hate Dany for killing him , then it wouldn't bring that much to the story. Dany is already being seen as the mad queen and her dothraki alone could make people despise her.

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

We’re desensitized to the uncle-niece incest because it’s not as bad as all the sibling marriages in the books, but I think a lot of viewers will be grossed out, both because we may see Daemon grooming young Rhaenyra, and because (forgive me) Daemon isn’t quite as pretty as Jon Snow. Even still, I remember some show fans finding Jonerys pretty gross because of the incest.

I personally find uncle-niece incest more disturbing when the uncle is not close in age to the niece . otherwise , yeah , it  could be more tolerated . like Daemon-Daenerys as opposed to Jaeherys-Alyssane. 

[The Bard of Banefort]

Hopefully we get to know Pate of Longleaf a bit before he kills Criston Cole. His last line to Criston is one of my favorites in the books, and I hope they keep it.

Is the general consensus that the Velaryons are black Valyrians, rather than Corlys being half-Summer Islander? If so, I just realized that creates a bit of a wrinkle. Alyssa Velaryon was Jaehaerys and Alysanne’s mother, so technically the whole family should be mixed-race now. I wonder if that even occurred to the showrunners? Then again, if the Iron Throne can be retconned, then I guess they change this too if they ever do a show involving Alyssa.

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

If Dany is able to easily overcome Aegon, then there was no point in including him in the first place. She already has plenty of potential antagonists: the Lannisters and Tyrells, Euron, Stannis, possibly even Jon. Aegon is only necessary if he presents a legitimate threat to her claim. We’ve already seen through Quentyn and Arianne how easily Dany is being maligned in the public. She’s the scary dragon lady who murdered her brother, feeds her enemies to her dragons, and probably bathes in the blood of virgins (I don’t remember if that was one of the rumors about Dany in ADWD, but I’m sure it will be). The Undying have told her she must slay the lie of the mummer’s dragon, but Quaithe also told her not to trust Quentyn, and we know that was bad advice. Just look at all the trouble Melisandre has caused by misinterpreting her visions. Dany will fight and eventually defeat Aegon, yes, but it will have a cost.

So far Aegon first has to properly establish himself ... something that's likely the work, but if it does it will work because he is a Targaryen pretender. And that, in turn, means that Daenerys could have tapped into the same potential of lingering Targaryen loyalty in Westeros as Aegon ... or that she will in the future. After all, if the Lannisters and Tyrells, Euron, Stannis, possibly even Jon are resisting Aegon's rise, then the lad might die long before Dany even decides to go to Westeros.

I mean, sure, Aegon and Dany could dance as long as the dragons danced during the First Dance. But is that very likely to be George's plan there, if he wants to finish the series in two more volumes? I guess not. Meaning that we are likely talking about a Second Dance which will consist only of one or two decisive battles. Once Dany lands, people will see her dragons, and then they will decide whether to back her or Aegon.

And whatever stories Aegon might spread about Dany - in the end people will choose the pretender who appears to be more powerful. They won't fault Dany that much for slaughtering slavers and barbarians ... that happened at a very far away place to people nobody in Westeros knows or cares about.

Quaithe told Dany to trust none of her visitors - which isn't the same as her not trusting Quentyn, specifically.

2 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

We’re desensitized to the uncle-niece incest because it’s not as bad as all the sibling marriages in the books, but I think a lot of viewers will be grossed out, both because we may see Daemon grooming young Rhaenyra, and because (forgive me) Daemon isn’t quite as pretty as Jon Snow. Even still, I remember some show fans finding Jonerys pretty gross because of the incest.

Well, my point was more that the show should really establish that the Targaryens are a family where arranged incestuous marriages are quite common. That wasn't really something GoT played up.

But even if Dany and Jon were brother and sister, their romance/relationship isn't 'proper incest' since they didn't grow up as brother and sister. Being 'grossed out' by such a relationship is pretty weird in itself, since they don't view each other as close kin. It is weird to expect that couples who suddenly learn that they are close kin because of weirdo reasons should suddenly feel ashamed of the feelings they have for each other.

The whole Daemon grooming thing is another issue, of course. I'm not sure we are going to get that, though, since the young Rhaenyra is clearly not as young as book Rhaenyra would be at the beginning of her father's reign. She is still a preteen girl when she is named Heir Apparent, after all.

If we have the weirdo Mushroom thing from 111 AC in the show, then Rhaenyra is likely not going to be fourteen years old at that time - or not look as if she was still fourteen.

I must say that I also found that George strangely underdeveloped this thing, just as he didn't seem to bother much with the marriages of Jaehaerys' grandchildren.

The Jaehaerys material shows perfectly how the Targaryen incestuous marriage policy worked - you marry those children to each other who really like each other and who are close enough in age so that it doesn't look weird (the plan for Daenerys-Aemon, Aemon-Jocelyn, Baelon-Alyssa, and the plan for Vaegon-Daella). Even earlier Aenys and Aegon I seemed to have such plans for Rhaena-Aegon and Jaehaerys-Alysanne.

How it is that Viserys was married to Aemma, Daemon to Rhea, and why Viserys I opposed a Daemon-Rhaenyra or later a Rhaenyra-Aegon match is not really clear. Daemon was much older than Rhaenyra, true, but politically that wouldn't have been that bad a match once Rhaenyra was named Heir Apparent. And the king naming her heir in 105 AC but not making a match for her until she came of age eight years later (!) makes very little sense.

The Laenor match should have either been much earlier (i.e. when Viserys I spurned Laena in 106 AC) or Rhaenyra should have had another betrothed who died early so she would have to find a new husband when she came of age.

[Lord Varys]

17 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Hopefully we get to know Pate of Longleaf a bit before he kills Criston Cole. His last line to Criston is one of my favorites in the books, and I hope they keep it.

Hopefully they include that character at all. He is one of the few characters who show that the Rhaenyra actually had a solid base of supporters among the smallfolk in the Riverlands. One of the best parts of the story there is that the commoners force their lords to pick a side - just as a commoner motivated the nobles to fight for Maegor at the Trial of Seven.

17 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Is the general consensus that the Velaryons are black Valyrians, rather than Corlys being half-Summer Islander? If so, I just realized that creates a bit of a wrinkle. Alyssa Velaryon was Jaehaerys and Alysanne’s mother, so technically the whole family should be mixed-race now. I wonder if that even occurred to the showrunners? Then again, if the Iron Throne can be retconned, then I guess they change this too if they ever do a show involving Alyssa.

We have to wait and see. My impression seems to be that 'Black Valyrians' are a thing now, but that's solely based on the weirdo platinum-blonde wigs the Velaryons got for the show. One would imagine that they would have gone with black hair like it happens with most mixed children who also inherit dark(er) skin (I've no idea how it works in real life, but blond black/mixed people seem to be be pretty rare and the impression I get from the looks of the black Velaryons is that their 'family look' is dark skin + platinum blond locks).

Of course, if that were the case, then the Velaryons are not just turned into black people but also are retconned into no longer being close Targaryen cousins since - as you pointed out - if the established family ties were kept for the show then all Targaryens should have been black/mixed race, since Aegon and his sisters had a Velaryon mother, and Aegon's son Aenys was also married to a Velaryon. The subsequent incest (Aegon-Rhaenys, Jaehaerys-Alysanne, Baelon-Alyssa) would have preserved the dark skin to a very high degree, so it would be frankly ridiculous to cast white actors for Viserys I, Daemon, Rhaenys and basically all the Targaryens we get in the show.

The result of that would be that whether they want it or that ... the Velaryons are not going to be what they are in the books. Even if they were to throw in a couple of lines establishing the Velaryon history and Corlys' ancestors and kin repeatedly marrying into the Targaryen family ... I'd expect that the general (American) audience are going to perceive Corlys and his family as foreign outsiders (they were completely absent from GoT, after all) who are overreaching themselves by claiming the most auspicious royal princess and trying to put their mixed brood on a throne that doesn't belong to black people.

Even if that's not the intent - and we have no idea of their intentions at this point -, I think there is a very good chance that this is going to be the way quite a few people will perceive or interpret this whole thing.

After all, we cannot expect them to focus all that much on Aemon's death and the Great Council (even if there are truly going to be some scenes from the latter in the show), so the skin color of Laena and Laenor and Corlys might very well be one of the reasons why the lords supported Viserys I rather than the Velaryon claim. At least in the eyes of the public. And there is of course also a chance the writers drag real world racist issues into the show by having some racist bigot lords at the Great Council, say, dismissing Laenor's claim because of his skin color.

On some (surface) level the succession issue is changed from exclusively sex-based discrimination (Corlys Velaryon is the perfect consort for a Targaryen queen in the books, being the greatest man of his generation - in the book him being Rhaenys' consort is a huge asset, not a potential obstacle) to an issue that's both about sex and (at least potentially in the eyes of the audience) also about race.

Basically, that's why I have so much issue with those black Velaryons. They really have the potential to change the core conflict this series is about - and not in a good way.

A Summer Islander parent for Corlys could at least prevent the damage to Alyssa and Valaena Velaryon ... but it would also strengthen the 'foreign outsiders/upstart narrative' I mentioned above.

If they wanted to have black actors in the show - and I'm not opposed to that - why not make the Hightowers or the Strongs or Criston Cole black? That would have done less damage to the setting.

[EggBlue]

I don't think we are going to get any answers regarding why Velaryons are black . nor do I think they will address race based of skin tone in the series.  I think they're gonna pretend skin color is a non-issue. after all, we apparently live in a time that shows cast non-white people as English and Italian lords , Scottish kings or British queens and pretend it's normal . instead of , you know, creating stories with diverse characters or about actual settings people of color would have been in , in 1600s for example. frankly , I couldn't care less about families' looks in a fantasy world. for all I care you could cast black actors as Starks and Asians as Tyrells and technically it wouldn't even change the canon of the books. what I find somewhat of an issue with black Velaryons is that Westeros has already been established as an all white continent in GoT . as GoT's prequal , it'll be hard for the producers to introduce only one single non-white family. audience can not help but think that skin-tone like sex is a factor in skipping Rhaenys and her children in line of succession or later fight against Rhaenyra and her children with a Velaryon "father".  it would have been a completely different matter if Velaryons weren't the only black family in the show. say , Strongs , Hightowers or a bunch of other houses were mixed race . 

[Sotan]

If Rhaenys and later Rhaenyra's gender becomes the main talking point among the characters for why they're being denied the IT, is the audience really going to jump to race? I'm not sure. I can see certain events having a racial dimension and the audience interpreting it as such. Rhaenyra trying to steal Driftmark for her obvious bastard from the only black noble family in Westeros is not going to come off well.  

I do wonder how they'll explain the family tree, just ignoring it feels like a cop-out. If they're going to make a change like this, add to the lore, make it interesting. Ryan Condal did say that GRRM helped break in the pilot before pitching the show to HBO together, and he's stated multiple times that he had George on speed dial to ask him questions when issues came up, so I don't know. Then again if the writing is weak, the Velaryons will be the least of the problems. 

 

[Lord Varys]

2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

I don't think we are going to get any answers regarding why Velaryons are black.

They will introduce the Velaryon house, though. They are a new family in the show universe, so folks have to know who they are ... and especially who Corlys Velaryon is.

They certainly could make the skin color thing a non-issue ... but if they do not, then we should get some information as to why they don't look like the Targaryens.

And unless they change things they cannot really ignore the historical family ties between the Velaryons and the Targaryens. The Old King's mother was a Velaryon (Corlys' own grandaunt), and the Conqueror's mother was as well.

Whenever the show touches on the Rhaenys-Corlys match past marriages between the Targaryens and Velaryons are either implicitly or explicitly there ... or they are not. And when they are not there, one must assume they will be cut.

[And then there might also be promo material and stuff where the history of various houses might be explained. If we get such stuff and the material doesn't mention Valaena or Alyssa then this will also be a statement. Because frankly - the defining trait of the Velaryons in ASoIaF basically is that they provided brides for at least three Targaryen princes. That's how they are introduced in ACoK.]

2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

nor do I think they will address race based of skin tone in the series.  I think they're gonna pretend skin color is a non-issue. after all, we apparently live in a time that shows cast non-white people as English and Italian lords , Scottish kings or British queens and pretend it's normal.

But isn't that just alternative history stuff like Bridgerton? Or color-blind casting of the classics where it essentially no longer matters who plays who or how a character looks like because we have so many adaptations?

In normal cases characters are gender-swapped or race-swapped and that can have (some) effects on the story.

2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

instead of , you know, creating stories with diverse characters or about actual settings people of color would have been in , in 1600s for example. frankly , I couldn't care less about families' looks in a fantasy world. for all I care you could cast black actors as Starks and Asians as Tyrells and technically it wouldn't even change the canon of the books. what I find somewhat of an issue with black Velaryons is that Westeros has already been established as an all white continent in GoT . as GoT's prequal , it'll be hard for the producers to introduce only one single non-white family. audience can not help but think that skin-tone like sex is a factor in skipping Rhaenys and her children in line of succession or later fight against Rhaenyra and her children with a Velaryon "father".  it would have been a completely different matter if Velaryons weren't the only black family in the show. say , Strongs , Hightowers or a bunch of other houses were mixed race . 

I agree that the looks of most characters are irrelevant. And in context the Valyrians would have made much more sense as black people, considering they look more like fairy-tale elves from the north than a people you would associate with a southern place.

The issue I have is that the Velaryons pretty much are 'little Targaryens' in the books. They look the same, have the same ancestry and background. The show changing their looks inevitably changes that shared background.

And the idea that Valyria was some kind of inclusive and diverse melting pot place is clearly wrong. The general population might have been mixed and there might have been foreigners from all over the world in Valyria. But the elites practiced incest for thousands of years - and not just the dragonlords but the entire 'old families gang'. And that means that they would all look alike sans some very special cases where an outsider married into a noble family.

And, yes, as you say - that Corlys and his family are suddenly there as the only black house in Westeros is what is likely to trigger the kind of reception/interpretation I outlined above.

It doesn't have to be explicit or implicit in the show for commentators to view the Velaryons as a black family in a more contempotary, real world sense, and subsequently highlight the fact that the woman who was passed over for a man at the Great Council - and this backstory definitely will be there in the show - was not just any woman, but the only woman married to a black man and the only woman with black children.

And that's clearly not what George intended there.

2 hours ago, Sotan said:

If Rhaenys and later Rhaenyra's gender becomes the main talking point among the characters for why they're being denied the IT, is the audience really going to jump to race? I'm not sure. I can see certain events having a racial dimension and the audience interpreting it as such. Rhaenyra trying to steal Driftmark for her obvious bastard from the only black noble family in Westeros is not going to come off well.

I don't think people are going to ignore this. Even if nobody talked about the Velaryons being black ... they will be black on screen, and folks are going to interpret things in the real world, not in Westeros.

The fact that Vaemond Velaryon is going to play a larger role might indicate he will be a kind of villain. They could turn him into the real mastermind behind the murder of Laenor, for example (assuming they don't want to go with Daemon). In fact, that might even be a nice hypothesis for the book canon: If Vaemond truly wanted to have Driftmark for himself, then Laenor was a clear obstacle there. With him out of the way he would have gotten a lot closer to Driftmark. After all, we don't even know whether it is appropriate in Westeros that a prince/king consort actually has a lordship of his own. Laenor was Corlys' heir while he was not prince/king consort, but had Viserys I's predeceased Corlys would Laenor have remained his father's heir? We don't know. In Dorne it is clear that a future queen or king consort does not also inherit Dorne if they are the Heir Apparent. Myriah was originally the heir of Dorne but Maron inherited the place in her stead once she married the future King on the Iron Throne. And Doran planned the same for Arianne. Her being betrothed to Viserys meant she would one day be Queen of the Seven Kingdoms and not Princess of Dorne.

If they go with such a scenario in the show - and if that was how Vaemond thought he might end up becoming the Lord of Driftmark - then this his story might be quite interesting. After all, Corlys may have even promised his brother/nephew back when he married Rhaenys that once Rhaenys sat on the Iron Throne in the Red Keep he and their children would join her there as the new royal consort and family, and Driftmark would then go to Vaemond ... like Storm's End went to Renly. Baelon's branch winning the day at the Great Council would have buried such dreams for good.

In context it is quite clear that House Velaryon (i.e. Corlys and Rhaenys) viewed the actions of Vaemond and his kin as betrayal. Corlys liked his grandsons, and they were betrothed to his granddaughters ... and Vaemond and his kin wanted to steal Driftmark not only from Laenor's sons but from Laena's daughters as well.

A faithful adaptation there would have the Targaryen-Velaryon clan under Rhaenyra's leadership as a kind of working patchwork family - not as a dysfunctional family where everybody schemed against the other. Else the Velaryons wouldn't have sided with Rhaenyra during the Dance.

[Sotan]

20 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The fact that Vaemond Velaryon is going to play a larger role might indicate he will be a kind of villain. They could turn him into the real mastermind behind the murder of Laenor, for example (assuming they don't want to go with Daemon). In fact, that might even be a nice hypothesis for the book canon: If Vaemond truly wanted to have Driftmark for himself, then Laenor was a clear obstacle there. With him out of the way he would have gotten a lot closer to Driftmark.

This is kind of brilliant and might be where the show is headed. Why change Vaemond from nephew to brother? All it does is give him a stronger claim. Making Vaemond Laenor's murderer instead of the #1 suspect Daemon is a good move as well. Daemon does commits plenty of evil in the story this could be the one time he's innocent, but everyone still blames him. It never sat well with me that Corlys and Rhaenys were allies with the guy who probably murdered their son. 

I wonder if Vaemond even survives to join the Greens and someone else is eaten by Syrax. They keep the Silent Five story and the matter of Rhaenyra's bastards fractures House Velaryon and many join team Green (I think something similar happens in the book as well) I don't remember.

[Lord Varys]

17 minutes ago, Sotan said:

This is kind of brilliant and might be where the show is headed. Why change Vaemond from nephew to brother? All it does is give him a stronger claim. Making Vaemond Laenor's murderer instead of the #1 suspect Daemon is a good move as well. Daemon does commits plenty of evil in the story this could be the one time he's innocent, but everyone still blames him. It never sat well with me that Corlys and Rhaenys were allies with the guy who probably murdered their son.

Yes, in-universe the best argument against the Daemon hypothesis is that Corlys and Rhaenys would really have to be utter morons if they never suspected or figured out that Daemon was the one behind that murder. They knew him much better than the historians and readers, and in this context it is clear that Corlys doesn't really need proof that Daemon was involved. All he and Rhaenys needed to not side with Rhaenyra during the Dance was the suspicion that Daemon may have been involved in their son's murder. And it is not that Daemon immediately marrying Rhaenyra doesn't provide them with such a suspicion - unless, of course, the in-universe characters are pretty sure that Daemon and Rhaenyra had nothing to do with Laenor's death.

Neither Rhaenyra nor Daemon could force their hands. They were dependent on the Velaryon fleet and on Rhaenys' dragon, not the other way around. And if Corlys had offered Aegon II to hand him Rhaenyra and Daemon on a golden platter, he would likely gotten all the rewards he might have wished for, royal marriages included (Baela to Aemond or Daeron, say).

I either lean towards that Vaemond hypothesis, Correy acting all by himself and disappearing because he had fallen in with actual criminals (or him actually getting away to some obscure place in Essos - if he jumped a ship bound to Yi Ti or Asshai this is certainly possible), or Correy having been on the payroll of Alicent or some other Green who was looking for dirt using against Rhaenyra ... and they got rid of him for good after he murdered Laenor and their involvement may have been revealed.

But, honestly, I think as the story is presented it strikes one as most likely that Correy just snapped and murdered his friend there. He acted at a public place, meaning this is more likely to be 'a crime of passion' than a premeditated murder. Correy killed Laenor in such a manner that his chances of getting away in one piece were very low. If Daemon or anyone paid the guy to kill Laenor then he almost fucked it up.

Insofar as Vaemond is concerned - as Corlys' brother they could model him on Borys Baratheon, Lyn Corbray, Ramsay Snow, etc. All men who had grown accustomed to their status as presumptive heirs, reacting not too kindly to the late arrival of unexpected heirs.

17 minutes ago, Sotan said:

I wonder if Vaemond even survives to join the Greens and someone else is eaten by Syrax. They keep the Silent Five story and the matter of Rhaenyra's bastards fractures House Velaryon and many join team Green (I think something similar happens in the book as well) I don't remember.

In the book, we later learn that the Silent Five and Vaemond's sons joined the Greens ... and Corlys was hurt by that. But they do not show up during the Dance story, so they didn't seem to have played a big role in the book. The show could play up some of those Velaryons, of course. In part, that might hinge in part whether they plan or consider to go with Daenaera Velaryon as Aegon III's eventual wife or not.

I think the entire episode with Viserys I on the Iron Throne cutting out tongues is a powerful scene, so we should have that.

But I honestly don't think the matter of Rhaenyra's sons can or will be 'a bad thing' in the show. What I expect there is a working marriage of two people who agree to have no sex ... but with Laenor making it clear that Rhaenyra's children will be his children, anyway. This should be the antithesis of Robert and Cersei. Cersei betrayed Robert by secretly cuckolding him and having another man father his children ... whereas Laenor and Rhaenyra will agree that they won't have sex, but that their marriage is going to work perfectly, anyway, since they will effectively have an open marriage and each of them will be perfectly aware what the other is doing, and Rhaenyra's children will be acknowledged as Laenor's in any case.

And if you look at it - there would have been no problem there if Laenor had not predeceased Viserys I. Who would dare to tell the dragonriding future prince/king consort that his children weren't his children? No one - and whoever dared it anyway would be risking his own life.

Even in the book it is crystal clear that Laenor had no issue with the parentage his sons - he even wanted to name them after his dead friend Joffrey. Nobody fooled or betrayed or humiliated him ... so the thing shouldn't have been a problem for Rhaenyra and Laenor and their immediate family.

If they were to turn this into pretty much a carbon copy of Robert-Cersei it would suck completely. Laenor would be turned into a complete moron who was fooled by his wife and whose homosexuality would have literally nothing to do with anything, because he would actually be trying to have children with Rhaenyra.

[EggBlue]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

But isn't that just alternative history stuff like Bridgerton? Or color-blind casting of the classics where it essentially no longer matters who plays who or how a character looks like because we have so many adaptations?

In normal cases characters are gender-swapped or race-swapped and that can have (some) effects on the story.

I happen not to like alternative history stuff that don't give a decent story of their own and pretend our history was rainbows and butterflies ... in my opinion gender/race swap in adaptations can only work when the writers establish the story in a way that the character actually feels like a  the other race or gender. like , you can't turn James Bond into a woman and pretend she doesn't have to deal with sexism in a manly world . or you can't make Anne Boleyn a black woman and pretend there were noble black families in Tuder England . I guess you can write some weird fictional show like Brigerton that somehow one single marriage has poofed up  the problem of racism and yet nothing can destroy the severe problem of sexism ; but I just can't understand why should one want to watch such a lousy fictional world like that in 21st century! that is not counting pretty cast and pretty clothes ! I guess those two can win millions... 

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

The fact that Vaemond Velaryon is going to play a larger role might indicate he will be a kind of villain. They could turn him into the real mastermind behind the murder of Laenor, for example (assuming they don't want to go with Daemon). In fact, that might even be a nice hypothesis for the book canon: If Vaemond truly wanted to have Driftmark for himself, then Laenor was a clear obstacle there. With him out of the way he would have gotten a lot closer to Driftmark. After all, we don't even know whether it is appropriate in Westeros that a prince/king consort actually has a lordship of his own. Laenor was Corlys' heir while he was not prince/king consort, but had Viserys I's predeceased Corlys would Laenor have remained his father's heir? We don't know. In Dorne it is clear that a future queen or king consort does not also inherit Dorne if they are the Heir Apparent. Myriah was originally the heir of Dorne but Maron inherited the place in her stead once she married the future King on the Iron Throne. And Doran planned the same for Arianne. Her being betrothed to Viserys meant she would one day be Queen of the Seven Kingdoms and not Princess of Dorne.

If they go with such a scenario in the show - and if that was how Vaemond thought he might end up becoming the Lord of Driftmark - then this his story might be quite interesting. After all, Corlys may have even promised his brother/nephew back when he married Rhaenys that once Rhaenys sat on the Iron Throne in the Red Keep he and their children would join her there as the new royal consort and family, and Driftmark would then go to Vaemond ... like Storm's End went to Renly. Baelon's branch winning the day at the Great Council would have buried such dreams for good.

In context it is quite clear that House Velaryon (i.e. Corlys and Rhaenys) viewed the actions of Vaemond and his kin as betrayal. Corlys liked his grandsons, and they were betrothed to his granddaughters ... and Vaemond and his kin wanted to steal Driftmark not only from Laenor's sons but from Laena's daughters as well.

A faithful adaptation there would have the Targaryen-Velaryon clan under Rhaenyra's leadership as a kind of working patchwork family - not as a dysfunctional family where everybody schemed against the other. Else the Velaryons wouldn't have sided with Rhaenyra during the Dance.

that's a good idea ! I hope they go in that direction .

when it comes to Daemon I get totally lost what the show could do to him . he's got every negative point a character can have to be despised: he's violent , arrogant, seduces his half-of-his-age niece , etc. but then his ending suggests that deep down he might be more misunderstood like Jaimie . not to mention , the first thing one might see when searching his name would be that he's George's favorite Targaryen . I don't know what they'll do with him...

[Sotan]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

But I honestly don't think the matter of Rhaenyra's sons can or will be 'a bad thing' in the show. What I expect there is a working marriage of two people who agree to have no sex ... but with Laenor making it clear that Rhaenyra's children will be his children, anyway. This should be the antithesis of Robert and Cersei. Cersei betrayed Robert by secretly cuckolding him and having another man father his children ... whereas Laenor and Rhaenyra will agree that they won't have sex, but that their marriage is going to work perfectly, anyway, since they will effectively have an open marriage and each of them will be perfectly aware what the other is doing, and Rhaenyra's children will be acknowledged as Laenor's in any case

I'm starting to come around to the theory that Laenor knew/thought he was infertile, or if as you say he and Rhaenyra had a mutual agreement to have a sexless marriage, the Strong boys were the only grandchildren Corlys and Rhaenys were going to get and went along with it. Corlys and Rhaeny's knowledge and acceptance of their son's marriage can also explain why they're "ok" with their former son and daugther-law marrying each other, even if the speed bothered them. If Daemon or Rhaenyra married someone else, it would bring an outsider into the fold, it made sense that those two would marry. 

 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

A faithful adaptation there would have the Targaryen-Velaryon clan under Rhaenyra's leadership as a kind of working patchwork family - not as a dysfunctional family where everybody schemed against the other. Else the Velaryons wouldn't have sided with Rhaenyra during the Dance.

This is how I always imagined the Targaryen/Velaryons in Dragonstone. A group of people tied by blood, marriage and a common cause. 

[Sotan]

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

I happen not to like alternative history stuff that don't give a decent story of their own and pretend our history was rainbows and butterflies ... in my opinion gender/race swap in adaptations can only work when the writers establish the story in a way that the character actually feels like a  the other race or gender. like , you can't turn James Bond into a woman and pretend she doesn't have to deal with sexism in a manly world . or you can't make Anne Boleyn a black woman and pretend there were noble black families in Tuder England . I guess you can write some weird fictional show like Brigerton that somehow one single marriage has poofed up  the problem of racism and yet nothing can destroy the severe problem of sexism ; but I just can't understand why should one want to watch such a lousy fictional world like that in 21st century! that is not counting pretty cast and pretty clothes ! I guess those two can win millions... 

Bridgerton ton is a fun fantasy and the pretty cast and clothes does a lot of the heavy lifting. The black Anne Boleyn was strange only because it felt like stunt casting, what does this bring to the story? What are they trying to say? Then again even though she's a historical figure she's been played a million different times on stage and screen, it doesn't really matter if a non-white actress plays her. You mentioned earlier that there are so many stories about POC that could be adapted, its a shame they're not exploring those. 

 

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

when it comes to Daemon I get totally lost what the show could do to him . he's got every negative point a character can have to be despised: he's violent , arrogant, seduces his half-of-his-age niece , etc. but then his ending suggests that deep down he might be more misunderstood like Jaimie . not to mention , the first thing one might see when searching his name would be that he's George's favorite Targaryen . I don't know what they'll do with him...

I'm really curious to see what they do with Daemon, if every rumor and speculation about him is even close to true than he's a really evil sob and a villain. Blood and Cheese is bad enough and they should keep that, the writers can then pick and choose the rest. He does have to have a soft side too, perhaps his relationship with Laena, or their daughters, his bromance with Corlys etc. Make him super ambitious and cruel to his enemies, but fiercely loyal to those he considers family and friends. There has to be a balance. 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

when it comes to Daemon I get totally lost what the show could do to him . he's got every negative point a character can have to be despised: he's violent , arrogant, seduces his half-of-his-age niece , etc. but then his ending suggests that deep down he might be more misunderstood like Jaimie . not to mention , the first thing one might see when searching his name would be that he's George's favorite Targaryen . I don't know what they'll do with him...

I expect they first introduce him as a kind of villain and (at first) a or the major threat to Rhaenyra, because he actually wants the throne for himself. That they end up getting married isn't something the audience should expect from the start (at least not if they tell the story chronologically). As he gets older, they should soften him more, show more likable aspects of his personality. Him being a good father to all his children (and his stepsons) could be part of that. Like, one could have a scene at the beginning of the war when Daemon leaves for Harrenhal and Jace for his mission in the north where Jace addresses him as 'father' and they have a conversation about how Daemon trusts Jace completely to keep Rhaenyra and the girls safe. Or Daemon could tell him that he sees the great Jaehaerys in Jace and regrets the fact that he will most likely not live to see Jacaerys I ascend the Iron Throne (because he would likely predecease Rhaenyra).

There are all sorts of ways to give the guy a likable traits. He could also be grief-stricken when he learns about Viserys' alleged death, or try to comfort Aegon III later in KL when Rhaenyra has taken the place and they are all there.

A more vulnerable aspect of his personality could also be his relationship to Viserys which is barely touched upon in the book.

What to do with him during the war is difficult, considering he is either at Harrenhal or at Maidenpool, not doing all that much most of the time.

39 minutes ago, Sotan said:

I'm starting to come around to the theory that Laenor knew/thought he was infertile, or if as you say he and Rhaenyra had a mutual agreement to have a sexless marriage, the Strong boys were the only grandchildren Corlys and Rhaenys were going to get and went along with it. Corlys and Rhaeny's knowledge and acceptance of their son's marriage can also explain why there "ok" with their former son and daugther-law marrying each other, even if the speed bothered them. If Daemon or Rhaenyra married someone else, it would bring an outsider into the fold, it made sense that those two would marry. 

Well, you have to really think what Laenor was - the son and heir of the richest man in Westeros, a dragonrider in his own right, a man who nearly was made king at a very young age. The guy had everything. In fact, he had so much that becoming king may have actually fucked up his life since that would mean responsibility and work, whereas he could just do whatever the hell he wants as a rich heir and Rhaenyra's consort.

If you are king you are under a lot of pressure to sire an heir. But as a lord you are not, if there are other heirs around. And Corlys does have six nephews in the books. Driftmark would go to somebody even if Laenor and Laena both died childless (which is also the reason, one imagines, why Laena is not forced into an early marriage). And that goes for all the lords. The Reader doesn't have children, either, and it is no problem. Laenor and Rhaenyra would have had a problem if Laenor had not wanted that Rhaenyra have children that were not fathered by him ... but the way things went he had no problem at all.

Such people do not really like to do what they do not want. And if Laenor doesn't want to have sex, he won't. It is as simple as that. Rhaenyra has to be literally forced into this marriage, and it seems clear that Laenor also only agreed to that under certain conditions ... and they clearly involved that he continue his previous lifestyle without any interference from anyone.

And his family was fine with that, or else he his parents wouldn't have allowed him to remain at High Tide.

Neither party there - not Viserys I on the Iron Throne, nor Rhaenys and Corlys at High Tide - forced either of their children to actually live together or pretend their marriage was more than, well, a legal contract. Else we would have gotten all kind of attempts to force the spouses to actually co-habit, to pretend they were deeply in love, to have sex in a manner which revealed to the public that they were having sex, etc.

[Sotan]

8 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Neither party there - not Viserys I on the Iron Throne, nor Rhaenys and Corlys at High Tide - forced either of their children to actually live together or pretend their marriage was more than, well, a legal contract. Else we would have gotten all kind of attempts to force the spouses to actually co-habit, to pretend they were deeply in love, to have sex in a manner which revealed to the public that they were having sex, etc.

I agree with you there, and you're right about the plethora of Velaryon heirs hanging around, even in the trailer and the bts pics the family is well represented. What I don't get is why Corlys would be ok with Rhaenyra's bastards inheriting Driftmark. I understand the betrothal to his biological granddaughters, but things can change on a dime, just ceding his title and wealth to a Strong bastard seems crazy to me. I hope the show shines a light on what he and Rhaenys were thinking.