Dalla and Val, the Northman's daughters

[Evolett]

This post is about the identity of Dalla and Val. It's longer than I intended so please bear with me.

When Jon is first taken to Mance Rayder’s tent, he has no idea who the king-beyond-the-wall is. Mance Rayder turns out to be the grey-haired man in a tattered cloak of black and red, playing a lute and singing “the Dornishman’s wife.”

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The Dornishman’s wife was as fair as the sun,
her kisses were warmer than spring.
But the Dornishman’s blade was made of black steel,
and its kiss was a terrible thing […]

We are treated to the entire song and nobody pays any attention to Jon until it’s over. Jon knows the song but thinks it odd to hear it in a tent beyond the Wall, so many leagues from Dorne. With all the attention given it, it seems like it’s of importance to the story. The reader is supposed to remember it and think about it.

As it turns out, the singer is also the king-beyond-the-wall and he recognizes Ned Stark’s bastard, the “Snow of Winterfell.” Jon then learns who the others are:

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“The good woman at the brazier,” Mance Rayder went on, “is Dalla.” The pregnant woman smiled shyly. “Treat her like you would any queen, she is carrying my child.” He turned to the last two. “This beauty is her sister Val. Young Jarl beside her is her latest pet.” aSoS, Jon I

My hypothesis: Dalla and Val are the late Brandon Stark’s daughters (brother to Ned). So, let’s see if this works.

Mance refers to Jon as the “Snow of Winterfell.” He’s the only one to use this alias for Jon and perhaps the first clue to other “Snows of Winterfell” he is personally aware of. Right after revealing that he is aware of Jon’s identity, Mance asks Jon if he liked the song, repeating two lines of the lyrics:

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“How did you like the song, lad?” “Well enough. I’d heard it before.” “But what does it matter, for all men must die,” the King-beyond-the-Wall said lightly, “and I’ve tasted the Dornishman’s wife.

So attention is drawn to those lyrics and the italicized text is as in the books. “for all men must die” – Brandon is dead. “I’ve tasted the Dornishman’s wife”. Well, maybe not the Dornishman’s wife, but Mance has certainly tasted a Northman’s daughter (Dalla).

Much further down the line, in aDwD, The Turncloak, Mance is in Winterfell amid the Bolton / Frey host in the guise of Abel the Bard, together with six wildling spearwives posing as musicians and washerwomen. The plan is to rescue fArya and return her to Jon at the Wall, the entire scenario very reminiscent of the tale of Bael the Bard. One evening after the wedding Ramsay asks for a song and Abel launches into “the Dornishman’s wife” but replaces “Dornishman’s wife” with “Northman’s daughter:”

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He (Theon) was still waiting for his porridge when Ramsay swept into the hall with his Bastard’s Boys, shouting for music. Abel rubbed the sleep from his eyes, took up his lute, and launched into “The Dornishman’s Wife,” whilst one of his washerwomen beat time on her drum. The singer changed the words, though. Instead of tasting a Dornishman’s wife, he sang of tasting a northman’s daughter. He could lose his tongue for that, Theon thought, as his bowl was being filled. He is only a singer. Lord Ramsay could flay the skin off both his hands, and no one would say a word.

On the surface, the reader interprets the switch in lyrics as alluding to Ramsay taking a fake daughter of Winterfell to bride, a fact which would make mockery of Ramsay’s claim to the title of Lord of Winterfell. And this is what Theon is thinking too but Ramsay laughs it off.

Changing the words of the song to the Northman’s daughter takes on a completely new meaning as well as having huge implications regarding the future of House Stark if viewed in the context of  Ygritte’s account of “the song of the winter rose,” with Mance in the role of Bael, Dalla the “stolen” daughter of Brandon,  and little baby Aemon Steelsong, currently in Gilly’s and Sam’s care, as a potential and trueborn heir to Winterfell. And there is Val of course as another option, the so called wildling princess who together with a legitimized Jon Snow would solidify the claim to House Stark through the female line if Stannis had his way. One wonders if Stannis is aware of Dalla’s and Val’s origins but that is a question I cannot answer.

House Stark is in a position similar to the situation during the time of Brandon the Daughterless. There are no male heirs immediately at hand. Robb is dead, Bran will never father children, Davos has been charged with retrieving Rickon. Sansa is still married to Tyrion and Littlefinger plans to marry her to Harry the Heir. In either case, whichever is enforced will end in a usurpation of House Stark. Arya … well, Arya. fArya’s marriage to Ramsay has temporarily achieved this usurpation, for Bolton has claimed the title of Lord of Winterfell, House Bolton of Winterfell. Jon refused the title and the marriage to Val. Centuries ago, Bael the Bard’s intervention allowed House Stark to continue. The legend does not inform us on the marital status of the Stark daughter and if the son was a bastard it did not matter because he continued the line. The point is, the Starks prevailed through the female line before reverting back to the male line.

 

 

Is there proof that Dalla and Val are daughters of Brandon, brother to Ned Stark?
There is nothing conclusive, only hints and connections. Mance says he met Dalla during his journey back to the north after having visited Winterfell for King Robert’s feast. We are not told if their meeting occurred south or north of the Wall, though the south appears more likely. Both women appear more cultured and educated than the other freefolk. They certainly don’t speak in the same manner. That both girls were stolen by wildlings during late childhood is also possible though. As Ygritte informs Jon, the freefolk steal daughters, not wives.

George Martin has allowed for Brandon to have had illegitimate children. This is his response to a question put to him about Brandon Stark’s interest in women:

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In A Dance with Dragons, we learn more about Brandon Stark and his interest in women, similar to Robert's. Did Brandon have any bastards as well?

It'd be an exaggeration to say that Brandon died before he could have children. It's established in the books that he was no virgin. He could very well have left behind some little Snows in the various places he visited. But what's absolutely clear is that he had no legitimate children.

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Asshai.com_Interview_in_Barcelona/

 

The reader learns about Brandon’s “interest in women” through Barbery Dustin’s conversation with Theon in the crypts in the same chapter that Mance in the role of Abel sings the Northman’s daughter version of the song. Lady Dustin talks frankly about her affair with Brandon and how she hoped to marry him. Brandon obviously had no qualms over deflowering a highborn maiden. That he had other women and fathered children is entirely possible.

There’s not much to go on in terms of looks. Brandon had grey eyes while Val is first described as having pale grey eyes and later her eyes appear blue. There are a couple of interesting connections though; this is when Val returns from the mission to find Tormund to bring him Jon’s message:

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Ghost was gone, though. Jon peeled off one black glove, put two fingers in his mouth, and whistled. “Ghost! To me.” From above came the sudden sound of wings. Mormont’s raven flapped from a limb of an old oak to perch upon Jon’s saddle. “Corn,” it cried. “Corn, corn, corn.” “Did you follow me as well?” Jon reached to shoo the bird away but ended up stroking its feathers. The raven cocked its eye at him. “Snow,” it muttered, bobbing its head knowingly. Then Ghost emerged from between two trees, with Val beside him. They look as though they belong together. Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was white as well … but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely. “Have you been trying to steal my wolf?” he asked her. “Why not? If every woman had a direwolf, men would be much sweeter. Even crows.” aDwD

Ghost takes off, obviously to meet Val. Meanwhile Mormont’s raven flies down from a tree onto Jon’s saddle muttering “Snow” and bobbing its head knowingly. It wouldn’t be the first time the raven addresses Jon as Snow but bobbing its head knowingly could imply the bird is referring to Val and not to Jon. Born in the north as a bastard, Val would be a Snow. Val’s attire and even her breath, all in white, emphasizes the Snow aspect. When Val appears with Ghost, they look as though they belong together.
Now this is interesting because we know definitely that Brandon had the “wolfblood” which accounted for his temperament and may have facilitated his bonding with a direwolf, had he possessed one. Val is no less fearless and temperamental. She tried to escape thrice and the men are wary of her. She found Tormund where seasoned rangers of the Watch had failed. Jon thinks of her as a warrior princess and like Brandon, she is a born horse rider:

Val looked the part and rode as if she had been born on horseback. A warrior princess, he decided, not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her.

She is given a dark bronze circlet to wear, a crown that could very well be the partner to the bronze and iron crown of the Kings of Winter. There is definitely something royal about Val and Dalla too.

So what of Dalla?
Dalla died in childbirth before we could really get to know her. However, there was a Dalla, a servant at Dragonstone who is briefly mentioned in the prologue to aCoK. This is where we also first meet Ser Davos who with his ethics and honor is reminiscent of Ned Stark. Davos has a son named Allard and I suspect there is wordplay on Dalla and Allard going on. If the author uses wordplay with Abel and Bael, why not with Dalla and Allard? As it happens, Allard is quite close to Brandon in personality:

·         Davos thinks of Allard as being especially rash.

·         Davos does not want Allard to meddle in affairs that do not concern him

·         He did not know how to talk to lords (reminds of Brandon rushing to the Red Keep demanding Rhaegar to come out and die)

·         He was a good fighter

·         Allard was happy to be in the most dangerous starboard wing position at the start of the Battle of the Blackwater

·         His ship was the Lady Marya (take the M away and you’re left with Arya / Lyanna)

·         Allard loved women. He had a girl in Oldtown, King’s Landing and Braavos.

No proof but possibly significant to Dalla’s identity as Brandon's daughter. This isn’t a secret that GRRM wants to reveal too soon.

 

Lastly, there is the matter of “the pink letter.” I am well aware of the theory refuting Ramsay as the author of the letter but what if he did write it? Mance’s and the spearwives’ involvement in Theon’s and fArya’s escape is surely apparent in Winterfell. Two spearwives, Holly and Frenya, accompanied them. Frenya was held up fighting half a dozen guards after Jeyne screamed and Holly was hit, slipping from a merlon, falling down into the snow. These two may not have survived but what of the rest? Unless Mance had found a way out of the castle they would have been rounded up and captured. And if they had known of a secret way out, why not use that safer route for the escape?

We can only speculate but Ramsay demanding the wildling princess and the wildling babe should give us reason to pause. If the spearwives knew about Dalla’s and Val’s origins as Brandon Stark's daughters and had the truth tortured and flayed out of them, then Val’s and baby Aemon’s significance would be clear to Ramsay. They would pose a great threat to the Bolton’s usurpation of House Stark and Ramsay would have every reason to get his hands on them. fAyra would no longer be suitable as an heiress to Winterfell even if she were genuine. Brandon was older than Ned. In this situation of a lack of suitable heirs, one could resort to his line, certainly the northern houses loyal to House Stark would jump at this chance to oust the Boltons. Baby Aemon would be the key to reclaiming House Stark. There is the matter of proof of course but Ramsay wouldn’t want it to come to that if he can help it. His best option is to round up all those who might be aware of the existence of potential heirs including those close to Stannis still at the Wall, hence his demands for Selyse, Shireen and Melisandre in addition to the rest.

This theory lends meaning to the Northman’s daughter, Dalla's and Val's roles in the narrative, hope for House Stark and would move the story forward in an unexpected way. What are your thoughts?

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

The song is about a non-Dornish who was messing with the daughter of the Dornishman.  In this case, it is probably that the Dornish in the song is a Martell.  The song is an old one and would predate any of the romances of the living characters, Mance included.

The edited song has a similar story.  A non-Northman messed with the daughter of a Northman.  This is what Bael did to the daughter of Winterfell.  He seduced and made love to her.  Furthermore, he got her pregnant.  mance/Abel was being silly in his sly manner.  He is the outsider who slept with a daughter of Winterfell, Lyanna Stark.  I would further suggest that he is the father of Jon Snow.

Val is blonde and fair.  Physical features that are not known in the Starks.  The Starks are known for their unusually elongated faces.  The horse like face shape we've been told of in Game of T.  Blonde is not common in the north.  It is not usual.  I agree there is something unusual about her parents.  I am doubtful she is a Stark though.  If there is an importance to the mystery, the possible source of the blonde hair is Brynden Rivers.  BR had plenty of time to sleep with a Free Folk during his service at the wall and father children.  One of these social interactions resulted in Val's grandmother.

[Darth Sidious]

House Stark won’t claim the north through legitimacy but through war. Jon and Bran are the ones who will win it for Rickon. I think they will betray Westeros and use wights to eliminate anybody who gets in their way.

[Evolett]

15 hours ago, James Fenimore Cooper XXII said:

Val is blonde and fair.  Physical features that are not known in the Starks.  The Starks are known for their unusually elongated faces.  The horse like face shape we've been told of in Game of T.  Blonde is not common in the north.  It is not usual.  I agree there is something unusual about her parents.

Only Arya and Jon have the classic Stark look. 4 children of Ned and Catelyn take after their mother. Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon have the characteristic Tully features  with auburn hair and blue eyes. So Val being blond does not rule out Brandon as her father and basing her possible identity on looks alone would be a mistake. Her affinity to Ghost and her temperamental nature could however indicate that she has the wolfblood and is related to the Starks. 

[three-eyed monkey]

I think you might have the wrong Northman. I wrote an OP a couple of years ago about Mance's plan, which touched on the identity of Val and Dalla, but I'll give a brief outline of the theory here for context.

Osha tells us Mance was just a crow who flew down from the Wall, and not really of the Free Folk. However, Qhorin tells us that Mance was the child of raiders who were killed and was taken in by the Watch when he was young.

In 288 Mance was still in the Watch, when he escorted Lord Commander Quorgyle to Winterfell. Sometime after that, while ranging north of the Wall, he had an encounter with a shadowcat that altered the course of his life. When injured he was taken to a wildling village where it was said an old wisewoman did some healing. The old woman was dead, but her daughter nursed Mance instead. Mance never names this woman who saved him and mended his black cloak with red silk.

Back at the Shadow Tower, Mance is told to burn the cloak and get back into the black of the Watch, so the next day he flew down from the Wall for a place where a kiss was not a crime and a man could wear whatever cloak he chose. This strongly suggests that he had an intimate relationship with his healer, and that when he left the Watch he returned to her.

As I said, this was a turning point in his life. Over the next several years he went about uniting the Free Folk, traveling from village to village, winning over some with his words and others with the edge of his sword, dueling potential rivals as King beyond the Wall, and making peace between rival tribes and clans, etc. It's important to note that Mance is a peace maker, and while there was inevitably some blood spilled along the way, he united the Free Folk by largely peaceful means.

In less than ten years he had assembled a host, the size of which concerned the Lord of Winterfell, Ned. This was 297, the year Mance attached himself to Robert's train and attended the king's feast in Winterfell, disguised as a singer or course. Mance went to take a look at Robert, and was probably disappointed in what he saw, and so this was a reconnaissance mission of sorts, which makes sense given that we know he was planning on bringing the Free Folk south to save them from the Others.

A number of Kings beyond the Wall had gotten a host past the Wall before, but every time the Starks and Umbers came down on them and put an end to the wildling invasion. Mance therefore has two problems; getting his host south of the Wall and then keeping them south of the Wall. The first part is the easier part, it has been done several times before. The second part is where he has to succeed where his predecessors failed, which has never been done.

Mance told Jon that he didn't want to launch a full assault against the Wall because even though he would win the Watch would bleed him, and he believes his people have bled enough already. If that's true, then going to war with the North is surely not his first choice when it comes to how to keep his people south of the Wall if and when they get there. Remember, Mance is a peace maker, he prove that when uniting the Free Folk, so peace with the North would be more desirable. And if you want to make peace, then you need to open a dialogue with your enemy.

The North has no love for the wildlings. The Umbers in particular are bitter enemies of the wildlings, who have been raiding their lands for centuries. If Mance wants to forge an unlikely peace with the North, then where better to start than with the Umbers, especially if the empty Gift is the piece of land Mance is hoping to gain for the Free Folk. He might have even seen the Umber sigil as a good omen, but i think he had another reason, and it goes back to the unnamed woman who nursed him after the shadowcat.

Back to Val and Dalla. There's a relatively prominent old theory that Val is Crowfood's daughter, but personally I find it more likely that she is his grand-daughter. Crowfood's daughter was stolen in 270, approx. Wildlings don't steal daughters, they steal wives, so she must have been a woman at that stage if she was seen as a potential wife by the raider. That would put her in her mid-forties now, at least, which I feel is to old for Val but a good age to be Val's mother.

Not only that, but I believe Val is the woman who nursed Mance back to health. Why else do we not have her name? Why else do we not have a backstory to how Mance and Val met? Nor did we ever find out what happened Crowfood's daughter. There are too many gaps in these three stories, but Val being Crowfood's grand-daughter and the woman who nursed Mance fills those gaps. It also means that Val is a huge catalyst in Mance's story, as that was the encounter that set him upon a new path. She may even be the inspiration behind his plan. However, romantically it didn't last. Mance refers to Jarl as Val's latest toy, and something about the way he says it makes me think he was a previous toy of hers, although they clearly still have a good relationship and share the same mission.

Val considers Dalla to be her sister, but we should not take that too literally. The free folk have a clan system, and we hear of clan mothers and clan kin, who may not be direct relatives but kin all the same according to their culture. However, I do think Val and Dalla share blood, Umber blood.

Mance said he met Dalla on his return from Robert's feast in Winterfell. Mance later reveals that he knows some hidey-holes east of Long Lake, which is Umber land. This is a route known to Mance as he has used these hidey-holes from time to time, and I believe this was his route home from Winterfell. We're told raiders have been crossing the Bay of Seals since the dawn of days, and I think this is the likely route Mance took. What better place to make a final stop before heading north again than the Last Hearth, which lies between Long Lake and the Bay of Seals. Mance had just infiltrated Winterfell as a singer and I doubt the Last Heart would be any more difficult. This was before Robb called his banners and Greatjon had not yet gone south. We are told Greatjon has daughters, though we are never told their names, but I would say one is named Dalla.

Mance told Jon that if he had been discovered at Winterfell, then he would have had to trust that guest right, a custom well-respected in the North, would keep him safe. The same rules would apply in the Last Hearth. Once the singer had eaten of Greatjon's bread and salt, he would be protected. This was Mance's opportunity to open that dialogue with Lord Umber, and take the first tenuous steps towards forging an unlikely peace. He wants to bring Crowfood's grand-daughter back, and that's a good place to start. Then it's on to the trickier proposition of bringing 100,000 free folk with her. There's centuries of hatred to overcome here, but a peace would benefit both parties long term, for several reasons. I'm not saying they trashed it all out there and then, just that the dialogue was opened.

We know Mance likes playing at Bael the Bard. If Sansa had been a few years older, then I think Mance might well have taken her from Winterfell. However, Ned had no older daughters. So Mance played Bael at the Last Heart instead, taking Lord Umber's daughter with him when he slipped away before guest right expired. Like Bael, he was planning on bringing her back with the King beyond the Wall's child in her belly.

The point of the songs about Bael and the flower of Winterfell, from a free folk point of view, as explained by Ygritte to Jon, is that the north and the free folk share the same blood.

So I think the Northman's daughter Mance has tasted is Dalla Umber.

[Corvo the Crow]

On 4/24/2022 at 6:16 PM, Evolett said:

This post is about the identity of Dalla and Val. It's longer than I intended so please bear with me.

When Jon is first taken to Mance Rayder’s tent, he has no idea who the king-beyond-the-wall is. Mance Rayder turns out to be the grey-haired man in a tattered cloak of black and red, playing a lute and singing “the Dornishman’s wife.”

We are treated to the entire song and nobody pays any attention to Jon until it’s over. Jon knows the song but thinks it odd to hear it in a tent beyond the Wall, so many leagues from Dorne. With all the attention given it, it seems like it’s of importance to the story. The reader is supposed to remember it and think about it.

As it turns out, the singer is also the king-beyond-the-wall and he recognizes Ned Stark’s bastard, the “Snow of Winterfell.” Jon then learns who the others are:

My hypothesis: Dalla and Val are the late Brandon Stark’s daughters (brother to Ned). So, let’s see if this works.

Mance refers to Jon as the “Snow of Winterfell.” He’s the only one to use this alias for Jon and perhaps the first clue to other “Snows of Winterfell” he is personally aware of. Right after revealing that he is aware of Jon’s identity, Mance asks Jon if he liked the song, repeating two lines of the lyrics:

So attention is drawn to those lyrics and the italicized text is as in the books. “for all men must die” – Brandon is dead. “I’ve tasted the Dornishman’s wife”. Well, maybe not the Dornishman’s wife, but Mance has certainly tasted a Northman’s daughter (Dalla).

Much further down the line, in aDwD, The Turncloak, Mance is in Winterfell amid the Bolton / Frey host in the guise of Abel the Bard, together with six wildling spearwives posing as musicians and washerwomen. The plan is to rescue fArya and return her to Jon at the Wall, the entire scenario very reminiscent of the tale of Bael the Bard. One evening after the wedding Ramsay asks for a song and Abel launches into “the Dornishman’s wife” but replaces “Dornishman’s wife” with “Northman’s daughter:”

On the surface, the reader interprets the switch in lyrics as alluding to Ramsay taking a fake daughter of Winterfell to bride, a fact which would make mockery of Ramsay’s claim to the title of Lord of Winterfell. And this is what Theon is thinking too but Ramsay laughs it off.

Changing the words of the song to the Northman’s daughter takes on a completely new meaning as well as having huge implications regarding the future of House Stark if viewed in the context of  Ygritte’s account of “the song of the winter rose,” with Mance in the role of Bael, Dalla the “stolen” daughter of Brandon,  and little baby Aemon Steelsong, currently in Gilly’s and Sam’s care, as a potential and trueborn heir to Winterfell. And there is Val of course as another option, the so called wildling princess who together with a legitimized Jon Snow would solidify the claim to House Stark through the female line if Stannis had his way. One wonders if Stannis is aware of Dalla’s and Val’s origins but that is a question I cannot answer.

House Stark is in a position similar to the situation during the time of Brandon the Daughterless. There are no male heirs immediately at hand. Robb is dead, Bran will never father children, Davos has been charged with retrieving Rickon. Sansa is still married to Tyrion and Littlefinger plans to marry her to Harry the Heir. In either case, whichever is enforced will end in a usurpation of House Stark. Arya … well, Arya. fArya’s marriage to Ramsay has temporarily achieved this usurpation, for Bolton has claimed the title of Lord of Winterfell, House Bolton of Winterfell. Jon refused the title and the marriage to Val. Centuries ago, Bael the Bard’s intervention allowed House Stark to continue. The legend does not inform us on the marital status of the Stark daughter and if the son was a bastard it did not matter because he continued the line. The point is, the Starks prevailed through the female line before reverting back to the male line.

 

 

Is there proof that Dalla and Val are daughters of Brandon, brother to Ned Stark?
There is nothing conclusive, only hints and connections. Mance says he met Dalla during his journey back to the north after having visited Winterfell for King Robert’s feast. We are not told if their meeting occurred south or north of the Wall, though the south appears more likely. Both women appear more cultured and educated than the other freefolk. They certainly don’t speak in the same manner. That both girls were stolen by wildlings during late childhood is also possible though. As Ygritte informs Jon, the freefolk steal daughters, not wives.

George Martin has allowed for Brandon to have had illegitimate children. This is his response to a question put to him about Brandon Stark’s interest in women:

 

The reader learns about Brandon’s “interest in women” through Barbery Dustin’s conversation with Theon in the crypts in the same chapter that Mance in the role of Abel sings the Northman’s daughter version of the song. Lady Dustin talks frankly about her affair with Brandon and how she hoped to marry him. Brandon obviously had no qualms over deflowering a highborn maiden. That he had other women and fathered children is entirely possible.

There’s not much to go on in terms of looks. Brandon had grey eyes while Val is first described as having pale grey eyes and later her eyes appear blue. There are a couple of interesting connections though; this is when Val returns from the mission to find Tormund to bring him Jon’s message:

Ghost takes off, obviously to meet Val. Meanwhile Mormont’s raven flies down from a tree onto Jon’s saddle muttering “Snow” and bobbing its head knowingly. It wouldn’t be the first time the raven addresses Jon as Snow but bobbing its head knowingly could imply the bird is referring to Val and not to Jon. Born in the north as a bastard, Val would be a Snow. Val’s attire and even her breath, all in white, emphasizes the Snow aspect. When Val appears with Ghost, they look as though they belong together.
Now this is interesting because we know definitely that Brandon had the “wolfblood” which accounted for his temperament and may have facilitated his bonding with a direwolf, had he possessed one. Val is no less fearless and temperamental. She tried to escape thrice and the men are wary of her. She found Tormund where seasoned rangers of the Watch had failed. Jon thinks of her as a warrior princess and like Brandon, she is a born horse rider:

Val looked the part and rode as if she had been born on horseback. A warrior princess, he decided, not some willowy creature who sits up in a tower, brushing her hair and waiting for some knight to rescue her.

She is given a dark bronze circlet to wear, a crown that could very well be the partner to the bronze and iron crown of the Kings of Winter. There is definitely something royal about Val and Dalla too.

So what of Dalla?
Dalla died in childbirth before we could really get to know her. However, there was a Dalla, a servant at Dragonstone who is briefly mentioned in the prologue to aCoK. This is where we also first meet Ser Davos who with his ethics and honor is reminiscent of Ned Stark. Davos has a son named Allard and I suspect there is wordplay on Dalla and Allard going on. If the author uses wordplay with Abel and Bael, why not with Dalla and Allard? As it happens, Allard is quite close to Brandon in personality:

·         Davos thinks of Allard as being especially rash.

·         Davos does not want Allard to meddle in affairs that do not concern him

·         He did not know how to talk to lords (reminds of Brandon rushing to the Red Keep demanding Rhaegar to come out and die)

·         He was a good fighter

·         Allard was happy to be in the most dangerous starboard wing position at the start of the Battle of the Blackwater

·         His ship was the Lady Marya (take the M away and you’re left with Arya / Lyanna)

·         Allard loved women. He had a girl in Oldtown, King’s Landing and Braavos.

No proof but possibly significant to Dalla’s identity as Brandon's daughter. This isn’t a secret that GRRM wants to reveal too soon.

 

Lastly, there is the matter of “the pink letter.” I am well aware of the theory refuting Ramsay as the author of the letter but what if he did write it? Mance’s and the spearwives’ involvement in Theon’s and fArya’s escape is surely apparent in Winterfell. Two spearwives, Holly and Frenya, accompanied them. Frenya was held up fighting half a dozen guards after Jeyne screamed and Holly was hit, slipping from a merlon, falling down into the snow. These two may not have survived but what of the rest? Unless Mance had found a way out of the castle they would have been rounded up and captured. And if they had known of a secret way out, why not use that safer route for the escape?

We can only speculate but Ramsay demanding the wildling princess and the wildling babe should give us reason to pause. If the spearwives knew about Dalla’s and Val’s origins as Brandon Stark's daughters and had the truth tortured and flayed out of them, then Val’s and baby Aemon’s significance would be clear to Ramsay. They would pose a great threat to the Bolton’s usurpation of House Stark and Ramsay would have every reason to get his hands on them. fAyra would no longer be suitable as an heiress to Winterfell even if she were genuine. Brandon was older than Ned. In this situation of a lack of suitable heirs, one could resort to his line, certainly the northern houses loyal to House Stark would jump at this chance to oust the Boltons. Baby Aemon would be the key to reclaiming House Stark. There is the matter of proof of course but Ramsay wouldn’t want it to come to that if he can help it. His best option is to round up all those who might be aware of the existence of potential heirs including those close to Stannis still at the Wall, hence his demands for Selyse, Shireen and Melisandre in addition to the rest.

This theory lends meaning to the Northman’s daughter, Dalla's and Val's roles in the narrative, hope for House Stark and would move the story forward in an unexpected way. What are your thoughts?

 

Maybe you can make some  use of this, then again maybe not.

 

[Moiraine Sedai]

His son will face the same problem as anybody claiming noble birthright. Proof.  If Val and Dalla are Starks, it’s the skinchanging that Mance is interested in. 

[Evolett]

16 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Back to Val and Dalla. There's a relatively prominent old theory that Val is Crowfood's daughter, but personally I find it more likely that she is his grand-daughter. Crowfood's daughter was stolen in 270, approx. Wildlings don't steal daughters, they steal wives, so she must have been a woman at that stage if she was seen as a potential wife by the raider. That would put her in her mid-forties now, at least, which I feel is to old for Val but a good age to be Val's mother.

Not only that, but I believe Val is the woman who nursed Mance back to health. Why else do we not have her name? Why else do we not have a backstory to how Mance and Val met? Nor did we ever find out what happened Crowfood's daughter. There are too many gaps in these three stories, but Val being Crowfood's grand-daughter and the woman who nursed Mance fills those gaps. It also means that Val is a huge catalyst in Mance's story, as that was the encounter that set him upon a new path. She may even be the inspiration behind his plan. However, romantically it didn't last. Mance refers to Jarl as Val's latest toy, and something about the way he says it makes me think he was a previous toy of hers, although they clearly still have a good relationship and share the same mission.

I'm aware of the theory that Val is Crowfood's daughter but was never fully convinced, neither do I see her as Crowfood's grand-daughter nor as the woman who nursed Mance back to health. Val strikes me as being too young to be the woman who healed Mance. Mance himself is grey-haired when Jon first meets him, he spent 20 years uniting the wildlings, meaning said daughter should be in her 30s at least. Secondly, if Val had any knowledge of healing, I would expect her to be able to assist in delivering her sister's baby, especially so because of the situation they were in when Dalla was due. Instead she tells Jon she needs to look for a midwife at a time when all hell breaks loose:

Quote

“Gods,” Val whispered, “gods, why are they doing this?” “Go inside the tent and stay with Dalla. It’s not safe out here.” It wouldn’t be a great deal safer inside, but she didn’t need to hear that. “I need to find the midwife,” Val said. “You’re the midwife. I’ll stay here until Mance comes back.”

Why would she endanger her life as well as her sister's and the baby's by going off to look for a midwife in the middle of a battle if she had any healing skills herself? Jon did not let her go and she had to deal with the emergency herself. Dalla died. This doen not mean Dalla's death was her fault but it does cast doubts on her ability as a healer. 

I take your point about Mance looking to unite the Freefolk with the Northeners through his wife Dalla, however the chances of this being accepted is more likely with a bride who has Stark roots. Ned was thinking of resettling the New Gift before he went down south. He may even have been open to this option given the current threat from the beyond the Wall. 

There is also the aspect of driving the plot forward. Mance's plan to take the Freefolk south has come to fruition. Not in the way he expected but at the end of the day, Jon took up his cause and made this possible. Why would  Val's and Dalla's origins continue to be hidden if they are descendants of the Umbers? A reserve heir to Winterfell in the form of baby Aemon whose grandfather was Brandon Stark makes more sense to me. It would also honor Brandon, who afterall died in an attempt to defend his sister. 

[Evolett]

7 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Maybe you can make some  use of this, then again maybe not.

Thank you  for this link. It certainly contains some interesting points. The weirwood brooch Val wears is a possible clue I omitted from the OP, trying to keep it short, but is part of the symbolism connecting Val to the Starks via the Knight of the Laughing Tree's shield.  

[Evolett]

46 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

His son will face the same problem as anybody claiming noble birthright. Proof.  If Val and Dalla are Starks, it’s the skinchanging that Mance is interested in. 

Indeed yes, proof of his origins will have to be brought forward. As to Mance's motivation in taking a Stark daughter to wife, I think @three-eyed monkey has the right of it, though he sees Dalla as Crowfood Umber's grand-daughter, the point being to unite the Freefolk with the people of the North through the northman's daughter. 

[Corvo the Crow]

45 minutes ago, Evolett said:

Thank you  for this link. It certainly contains some interesting points. The weirwood brooch Val wears is a possible clue I omitted from the OP, trying to keep it short, but is part of the symbolism connecting Val to the Starks via the Knight of the Laughing Tree's shield.  

Just a small thing, proves nothing but Val is about the right age to be Brandon's daughter too.  As for Dalla/Allard, there are only two Dalla's in the series. One was north of the wall and the other is... guess where? Dragonstone!

[Evolett]

25 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Just a small thing, proves nothing but Val is about the right age to be Brandon's daughter too.

Yes, I should have mentioned that in the OP.

25 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

As for Dalla/Allard, there are only two Dalla's in the series. One was north of the wall and the other is... guess where? Dragonstone!

I did mention that in the OP . Before discovering the wordplay I speculated a bit on the possibility of Dalla being in service at Dragonstone and returning to the North in Stannis' entourage but the timing does not fit. Then surprisingly, Allard showed many parallels to Brandon.

[three-eyed monkey]

16 hours ago, Evolett said:

Val strikes me as being too young to be the woman who healed Mance. Mance himself is grey-haired when Jon first meets him, he spent 20 years uniting the wildlings, meaning said daughter should be in her 30s at least.

Mance spent less than 10 years uniting the free folk. He was a brother of the Watch when he visited Winterfell in 288. Ned knew he had assembled the host by 297. So 20's at least. I think that would fit with Val, though we don't have a confirmed age for her.

16 hours ago, Evolett said:

Secondly, if Val had any knowledge of healing, I would expect her to be able to assist in delivering her sister's baby, especially so because of the situation they were in when Dalla was due. Instead she tells Jon she needs to look for a midwife at a time when all hell breaks loose:

Well midwives specialize in delivering babies. Even in modern times, nurses leave the delivery of babies to midwives. Val has some skills at cleaning and sewing wounds and nursing someone back to health, but it still makes sense that she would look for a midwife when it comes to delivering Dalla's child, given that the free folk would have midwives and delivery of a child posed a high risk to both mother and child and is therefore best left to someone who knows what they are doing. Even then, there are no guarantees but clearly her preference was to give Dalla and child the best chance.

The woman who nursed Mance was not described as a healer. The old woman who was known as a healer was dead when they brought Mance to the village. Her daughter saw to him instead, cleaned his wounds, sewed him up, and fed him porridge and potions until he was strong enough to ride again(?). That's a lot different than delivering a baby.

16 hours ago, Evolett said:

I take your point about Mance looking to unite the Freefolk with the Northeners through his wife Dalla, however the chances of this being accepted is more likely with a bride who has Stark roots.

That may be so but there was no Stark bride available. If there was then I suggest that he might have Baeled with her instead.

17 hours ago, Evolett said:

Ned was thinking of resettling the New Gift before he went down south. He may even have been open to this option given the current threat from the beyond the Wall. 

Ned was open to this, it makes a lot of sense to re-settle the Gift and make it productive, which would only be good for the North. The problem was that Ned couldn't lure settlers north, not with the northern winter coming on. A dream for spring. Mance does not have that problem though.

Mance's problem is the Umbers, who would be the free folks closest neighbors if they re-settle the gift. Especially given the animosity the Umbers have towards wildlings after centuries of raids.

When it comes to Winterfell, Mance is clearly in favor of Jon becoming the Lord of Winterfell or better still the king of an independent north. He's not banking on a secret Stark. He has invested in Jon, Ygritte set the trap and Mance pushed him in, etc.

17 hours ago, Evolett said:

There is also the aspect of driving the plot forward. Mance's plan to take the Freefolk south has come to fruition. Not in the way he expected but at the end of the day, Jon took up his cause and made this possible. Why would  Val's and Dalla's origins continue to be hidden if they are descendants of the Umbers? A reserve heir to Winterfell in the form of baby Aemon whose grandfather was Brandon Stark makes more sense to me. It would also honor Brandon, who afterall died in an attempt to defend his sister. 

And how would Mance prove that Dalla was a hitherto unknown Stark bastard? Far easier to prove Dalla is Greatjon's daughter if Dalla actually is Gratjon's daughter.

17 hours ago, Evolett said:

I think @three-eyed monkey has the right of it, though he sees Dalla as Crowfood Umber's grand-daughter, the point being to unite the Freefolk with the people of the North through the northman's daughter. 

Just to be clear, I see Val as Crowfood's grand-daughter. I see Dalla as Greatjon's daughter.

 

[Evolett]

2 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Well midwives specialize in delivering babies. Even in modern times, nurses leave the delivery of babies to midwives. Val has some skills at cleaning and sewing wounds and nursing someone back to health, but it still makes sense that she would look for a midwife when it comes to delivering Dalla's child, given that the free folk would have midwives and delivery of a child posed a high risk to both mother and child and is therefore best left to someone who knows what they are doing. Even then, there are no guarantees but clearly her preference was to give Dalla and child the best chance.

Yes, midwives specialize in delivering babies. It seems they are also expected to assist in healing or that they are considered proficient enough in other healing methods. This is after the Freefolk cross the Wall:

Quote

Those too young to fight would carry water and tend the fires, the Mole’s Town midwife would assist Clydas and Maester Aemon with any wounded,..

I've searched, read the text again and can find no reference to Val's healing skills. Perhaps you can provide a quote on that. 

As pointed out in the OP, there are quite a few parallels linking Dalla and Val to the Starks and IMO, to Brandon and quite a bit more I did not mention, including:

> Val's pet Jarl falls from the Wall - Bran is pushed from a tower
> Val is given a horse that's blind in one eye to ride, on a mission beyond the Wall - Bran is holed up in a cave with a one-eyed greenseer beyond the Wall, one who compares skinchanging to riding. 
> Val stands like a pillar of ice during the burning of fMance - reference to the biblical Lots wife who looked back at Sodom burning - Winterfell burned.
> Dalla talks of magic being like a sword without a hilt - possible reference to Brandon's bloody sword. 

We should also ask ourselves why GRRM chooses to present Val to us as a princess. Not why Stannis and his entourage think so, but why the author chooses to do so. The Starks stem from a very ancient unbroken line of Kings. The North was never taken over by the Andals, there was hardly any intermarriage beyond FM blood. This goes for the Starks too. If any House in Westeros can claim Kingsblood, they can, more so than the Targs. The fact that they became Lords after Aegon I does not change their blood heritage. And this is especially so for any child of Brandon's line as opposed to Ned who married Catelyn Tully. Val and Dalla can be seen as true princesses if they really are Brandon's daughters. Not to mention the irony of it all in respect of baby Aemon. A child with true kingsblood. 

And perhaps we should take Neds words a bit more seriously when he tells Catelyn that "it was all meant for Brandon." 

I never thought of any of this when I set out to investigate this possibility. What do you make of the parallels presented?
Is this all coincidence or could there be something more behind the scenes?

[Frey family reunion]

On 4/25/2022 at 6:52 PM, three-eyed monkey said:

Mance said he met Dalla on his return from Robert's feast in Winterfell.

I don’t know if this matters to your theory or not, but there may be some ambiguity as to which trip to Winterfell Mance was referring to.

the quote in full is:

Quote

Mance took her by the hand and pulled her close. “My lady is blameless. I met her on my return from your father’s castle. The Halfhand was carved of old oak, but I am made of flesh, and I have a great fondness for the charms of women … which makes me no different from three-quarters of the Watch. There are men still wearing black who have had ten times as many women as this poor king. You must guess again, Jon Snow.”

At this point, he had just told Jon that he made two trips to Winterfell.  Once when Jon was a boy, and once when King Robert came to visit.  He was a brother of the Night’s Watch the first trip and on his second trip had long since deserted from the order.

I assumed that he was talking about the second trip, since in the context of the conversation, he was absolving Dalla of any responsibility for him leaving the Night’s Watch.  But as @Melifeather pointed out to me, why then does he bother to contrast himself to Qhorin in the same passage and compare himself to the number of sworn brothers that had partaken of women?

If he had already broken his oath, why make this comparison between Qhorin and other brothers of the Night’s Watch?

Which is a decent point.  The other issue is the timing.  If he only met Dalla after his second trip to Winterfell, then it is quite the tight timeline for a marriage and a child.  But granted, certainly doable.

[Mourning Star]

I obviously can't be certain of any of this, but it's fun to speculate, and I agree with much of what was said above.

Dalla and Val's mother was the wise woman who's village Mance was brought to when he was injured by the shadow cat, and Dalla was the woman who cared for him, sowing the red silk into his cloak.

I would also agree that this wise woman was the daughter of Mors "Crowfood" Umber, who was "taken" by wildlings.

The name Mors belongs to a handful of other characters in ASoIaF, all of whom come from Dorne. Most notably, Mors Martell was the prince, and first husband of Nymeria of Ny Sar and founded the current royal line of Dorne, his grandson Mors II, and Doran's dead brother. Mors Manwoody, heir to Kingsgrave, accompanied Oberyn to King's Landing. (A Qorgyle is also among Oberyn's entourage.)

I would point out that Mance changing the "Dornishman's Wife" to the "Northman's Daughter" may have been a play on Mors's name.

Quote

I will not deny that Bael's exploit inspired mine own . . . but I did not steal either of your sisters that I recall. Bael wrote his own songs, and lived them. I only sing the songs that better men have made.
A Storm of Swords - Jon I

I would also agree with the point that Mance probably met Dalla and Val on his return from Winterfell, the first time.

Quote

"When do these patrols go out? How often?"
Jon shrugged. "It changes. I've heard that Lord Commander Qorgyle used to send them out every third day from Castle Black to Eastwatch-by-the-Sea, and every second day from Castle Black to the Shadow Tower.

A Storm of Swords - Jon III

Mance probably went back to Castle Black with Qorgyle from Winterfell, and then was sent on a patrol back to the Shadow Tower when he was attacked by the Shadow Cat.

I would also point out that while hair/eye color may not always be proof positive of heritage, it is used explicitly as an indicator of such, repeatedly.

As it turns, I don't think we never get the coloring of an Umber.

Finally, some may still disagree, but for those of us convinced that the "catspaw" assassin who tried to kill Bran was an accomplice of Mance "the shadowcat" (he said he climbed the wall alone, but then later we see wildlings climbing together using a rope, and Mance has motive for lying) who was secretly in Winterfell at the time, when the Library was also burned (and Mance's next stop was to dig up ancient graves in the Frostfangs), it is worth noting that the assassin's hair/eye coloring matches Val's.

[three-eyed monkey]

3 hours ago, Evolett said:

Yes, midwives specialize in delivering babies. It seems they are also expected to assist in healing or that they are considered proficient enough in other healing methods. This is after the Freefolk cross the Wall:

Yes, but I'm saying clearly Val is not a midwife, otherwise she would not have looked for one for Dalla. You are the one who said Val could not have nursed Mance back to health because she was not a midwife. I pointed out that even nurses defer to midwives when it comes to delivering babies.

3 hours ago, Evolett said:

I've searched, read the text again and can find no reference to Val's healing skills. Perhaps you can provide a quote on that. 

The woman who nursed Mance cleaned his wounds, sewed him up, and fed him porridge and potions. All of which is rather rudimentary. She is not referred to as a healer, that was the old wise woman who was dead when Mance reached the village. It was her "daughter" who saw to Mance.

3 hours ago, Evolett said:

As pointed out in the OP, there are quite a few parallels linking Dalla and Val to the Starks and IMO, to Brandon and quite a bit more I did not mention, including:

> Val's pet Jarl falls from the Wall - Bran is pushed from a tower

Yes, but what's the connection? Jarl and Bran both fell therefore Val might be a Stark?

3 hours ago, Evolett said:

> Val is given a horse that's blind in one eye to ride, on a mission beyond the Wall - Bran is holed up in a cave with a one-eyed greenseer beyond the Wall, one who compares skinchanging to riding. 

Crowfood Umber has one eye too.

3 hours ago, Evolett said:

> Val stands like a pillar of ice during the burning of fMance - reference to the biblical Lots wife who looked back at Sodom burning - Winterfell burned.

Lot's wife looked back at a city God destroyed for being evil and was turned to a pillar of salt. I see no narrative connection other than the word pillar.

3 hours ago, Evolett said:

> Dalla talks of magic being like a sword without a hilt - possible reference to Brandon's bloody sword. 

Yes, the point being sorcery is dangerous, a sword without a hilt, there's no safe way to wield it. Again the only connection I see here is the word sword, but there are thousands of references to swords in the series.

Jon observed that Val looked more regal in the bronze than Stannis did in gold. Bronze is often used in the series to refer to the time of the First Men, and of course the Starks were kings in those days. I would think something like this fits your theory better than Jarl falling from the Wall. However, the Umbers were kings themselves back then, so it fits my theory too.

3 hours ago, Evolett said:

We should also ask ourselves why GRRM chooses to present Val to us as a princess. Not why Stannis and his entourage think so, but why the author chooses to do so.

GRRM chooses to present Val as a princess from Stannis' point of view because Stannis needs her to be a princess if he is to marry her to his Lord of Winterfell and seal a peace between the North and the Free Folk. That's how things work in Stannis' world. But Val is not a princess, she is just the "sister" of Mance's dead wife. GRRM also presents this point of view through Jon, so you really need to look at the whole picture here.

4 hours ago, Evolett said:

And perhaps we should take Neds words a bit more seriously when he tells Catelyn that "it was all meant for Brandon." 

It was all meant for Brandon, he was Rickard's only son and he was betrothed to Cat.

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I don’t know if this matters to your theory or not, but there may be some ambiguity as to which trip to Winterfell Mance was referring to.

I am aware of the theory that Mance met Dalla on the way back from his first trip to Winterfell in 288. It's a reasonable question. However, rather than meeting Dalla while in the company of the Lord Commander and not having any children with her that we know of for ten years, I personally find it more likely that he met her on the way back from his second trip to Winterfell in 297, when he stole her from the Last Heart, and she was pregnant soon after.

1 hour ago, Mourning Star said:

Dalla was the woman who cared for him, sowing the red silk into his cloak.

Mance tells us he met Dalla on the way home from Winterfell, not when he was injured by the shadowcat which took place north of the Wall during a ranging.

[Evolett]

3 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Dalla and Val's mother was the wise woman who's village Mance was brought to when he was injured by the shadow cat, and Dalla was the woman who cared for him, sowing the red silk into his cloak.

I would also agree that this wise woman was the daughter of Mors "Crowfood" Umber, who was "taken" by wildlings.

 

I wouldn't disagree with the wise woman being Crowfood's daughter but totally disagree regarding Val, Dalla or both being her daughters. I'm also sure we've met said daughter again in the books: as Thistle, who appeared in Varamyr's prologue chapter. The encounter between Thistle and the skinchanger shares elements with Mance's account and on another level incorporates Mors Crowfood as well. In a nutshell:

- Thistle has healing skills. Even though she's on the run she has her tools with her. She treats and sews up Varamyr's wound with a needle. This is what we can expect from a woman taught healing by her mother. If she can sew a wound, she can probably also stitch a cloak together.

- Varamyr's wound is as bad as Mance's was and he acquired it while stealing a cloak. 

- Thistle fights back wildly when Varamyr tries to take over her body, reminding him of how his shadowcat used to fight him. Trying to skinchange Thistle references Hodor who may have giant ancestry, and is warged regularly by Bran. The giant ancestry in turn links to Mors Umber and his family of huge men and giant house sigil. 

- Notice the emphasis and attention drawn to the eyes in both Thistle and Mors - Mors with his obsidian eye, Thistle with her blue eyes after being wighted. 

- Crowfood bit the head off a raven, for which he earned the nickname. Crowfood's granddaughter Thistle becomes crowfood.  

This may be totally contrary to what most think but that would be my tip for the identity of the wisewoman's daughter. 

 

4 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I only sing the songs that better men have made.

Why sould this reference Mors Crowfood in particular? There're probably famous singers out there who can be regarded as "better men."

 

4 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

The name Mors belongs to a handful of other characters in ASoIaF, all of whom come from Dorne. Most notably, Mors Martell was the prince, and first husband of Nymeria of Ny Sar and founded the current royal line of Dorne, his grandson Mors II, and Doran's dead brother. Mors Manwoody, heir to Kingsgrave, accompanied Oberyn to King's Landing. (A Qorgyle is also among Oberyn's entourage.)

I take it this is the reasoning behind Val's being a princess?

 

6 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I don’t know if this matters to your theory or not, but there may be some ambiguity as to which trip to Winterfell Mance was referring to.

Yes. However, if he met Dalla after the first trip to Winterfell, that would be about 10 years ago approx.? Even if less than 10 years, it's rather a long time to wait to start raising a family. Mance was mostly grey-haired when Jon met him, suggesting he was not the youngest of men. Why would the couple wait so long? There's moon-tea, miscarrages etc. but it still seems odd in a world where most couples strive to have children soon after marriage. 

 

4 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Finally, some may still disagree, but for those of us convinced that the "catspaw" assassin who tried to kill Bran was an accomplice of Mance "the shadowcat" (he said he climbed the wall alone, but then later we see wildlings climbing together using a rope, and Mance has motive for lying) who was secretly in Winterfell at the time, when the Library was also burned (and Mance's next stop was to dig up ancient graves in the Frostfangs), it is worth noting that the assassin's hair/eye coloring matches Val's.

Hmm, can't relate to this at all but who knows?

[Frey family reunion]

50 minutes ago, three-eyed monkey said:

I am aware of the theory that Mance met Dalla on the way back from his first trip to Winterfell in 288. It's a reasonable question. However, rather than meeting Dalla while in the company of the Lord Commander and not having any children with her that we know of for ten years, I personally find it more likely that he met her on the way back from his second trip to Winterfell in 297, when he stole her from the Last Heart, and she was pregnant soon after.

It’s a bit confusing, this info from Jon Snow makes it even more so:

Quote

All Mance ever did was lead an army down upon the realm he once swore to protect. “Mance said our words, Gilly. Then he turned his cloak, wed Dalla, and crowned himself King-Beyond-the-Wall. His life is in the king’s hands now. It’s not him we need to talk about. It’s his son. Dalla’s boy.”

so in this sequence, Mance turned cloak, married Dalla, then crowned himself King Beyond the Wall.  If he hadn’t met Dalla until his return trip from spying on Robert, that sequence isn’t correct.  For he was well known as having declared himself King Beyond the Wall prior to Robert’s arrival at Winterfell.

The sequence very well have been Mance first met Dalla while still a brother to the Night’s Watch.  And then later after he turned cloak tracked her back down and made her his wife.

[Frey family reunion]

11 minutes ago, Evolett said:

Yes. However, if he met Dalla after the first trip to Winterfell, that would be about 10 years ago approx.? Even if less than 10 years, it's rather a long time to wait to start raising a family. Mance was mostly grey-haired when Jon met him, suggesting he was not the youngest of men. Why would the couple wait so long? There's moon-tea, miscarrages etc. but it still seems odd in a world where most couples strive to have children soon after marriage. 

I think the sequence would be Mance met Dalla while still in the Night’s Watch.  Had a dalliance (no pun intended) as most brothers do.  Then later, sometime after he turned cloak decided to track her back down and make her his wife.