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Dalla and Val, the Northman's daughters


Evolett

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19 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

It’s a bit confusing, this info from Jon Snow makes it even more so:

so in this sequence, Mance turned cloak, married Dalla, then crowned himself King Beyond the Wall.  If he hadn’t met Dalla until his return trip from spying on Robert, that sequence isn’t correct.  For he was well known as having declared himself King Beyond the Wall prior to Robert’s arrival at Winterfell.

The sequence very well have been Mance first met Dalla while still a brother to the Night’s Watch.  And then later after he turned cloak tracked her back down and made her his wife.

Jon's not in a position to know the sequence of events with Mance and Dalla though.

Jon is talking about Mance's oath-breaking in the passage you cited, and he is using the Watch vows as a frame of reference.

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"Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory.

This is where the sequence comes from. Turn cloak, wed Dalla, declare himself king.

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17 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

Finally, some may still disagree, but for those of us convinced that the "catspaw" assassin who tried to kill Bran was an accomplice of Mance "the shadowcat" (he said he climbed the wall alone, but then later we see wildlings climbing together using a rope, and Mance has motive for lying) who was secretly in Winterfell at the time, when the Library was also burned (and Mance's next stop was to dig up ancient graves in the Frostfangs), it is worth noting that the assassin's hair/eye coloring matches Val's.

After reflecting on this, I do see a possibility in the context of Mance taking a child of Winterfell as a hostage to accelerate his goal of bringing the Freefolk south. When Bran was attacked during his first ride, Osha suggested taking Bran to Mance Rayder. Osha was very aware of the threat of the Others beyond the Wall. Perhaps there were discussions amongst the leaders of the Freefolk as to how best achieve their goal, with the taking of hostages being an option. A Stark hostage would also call for immediate action from Winterfell, Mance would be able to begin negotiations at once. None of this would be served by killing Bran though and perhaps that was not the Catspaw's mission. This does not rule out the possibility that his wife has Stark blood but it does free Mance from having to prove his wife has Stark blood (or Umber blood, as the case may be) as well as speed up the process of getting his folk down south to safety. 

 

13 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think the sequence would be Mance met Dalla while still in the Night’s Watch.  Had a dalliance (no pun intended) as most brothers do.  Then later, sometime after he turned cloak decided to track her back down and make her his wife.

There's the problem of age. If Dalla is a child of Brandon, she is probably only a few years older than Robb and Jon, making her somewhat too young to have had a dalliance with while Mance was still a brother of the Watch. Maybe he became aware of her roots back then to later track her down, we can only speculate. I tend to lean toward his meeting her after his second trip to Winterfell. 

 

14 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Yes, but what's the connection? Jarl and Bran both fell therefore Val might be a Stark?

Jarl falling from the Wall and Val's uncertainty as to whether Jon killed Jarl or not mirrors Bran's falling from the tower and Cat's suspicions regarding Bran having being deliberately thrown off the tower:

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“Before I go, one question. Did you kill Jarl, my lord?” “The Wall killed Jarl.” “So I’d heard. But I had to be sure.” “You have my word. I did not kill him.”

This does not mean Val is a Stark but together with all the other parallels I point to in the OP, including her affinity to Ghost, I do see her as possibly having Stark blood. 

14 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:
21 hours ago, Evolett said:

> Val is given a horse that's blind in one eye to ride, on a mission beyond the Wall - Bran is holed up in a cave with a one-eyed greenseer beyond the Wall, one who compares skinchanging to riding. 

Crowfood Umber has one eye too.

Crowfood isn't on a mission beyond the Wall though.

 

14 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Yes, the point being sorcery is dangerous, a sword without a hilt, there's no safe way to wield it. Again the only connection I see here is the word sword, but there are thousands of references to swords in the series

True.

14 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:
21 hours ago, Evolett said:

> Val stands like a pillar of ice during the burning of fMance - reference to the biblical Lots wife who looked back at Sodom burning - Winterfell burned.

Lot's wife looked back at a city God destroyed for being evil and was turned to a pillar of salt. I see no narrative connection other than the word pillar.

Val looks as if she's carved from salt - my mistake in the quote above, should have checked the text. So yes, there is a narrative connection to Lot's Wife, and by extension to the burning of Winterfell in the context of my theory. 

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Val stood on the platform as still as if she had been carved of salt.

 

14 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

It was all meant for Brandon, he was Rickard's only son and he was betrothed to Cat.

You mean heir here. Brandon wasn't Rickard's only son. Yes of course it was all meant for Brandon. The point is, if Dalla turns out to be a daughter of Brandon, baby Aemon can be considered as heir to Winterfell, a child of Brandon's line. 

 

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1 hour ago, Evolett said:

After reflecting on this, I do see a possibility in the context of Mance taking a child of Winterfell as a hostage to accelerate his goal of bringing the Freefolk south.

As I said, if there was a Stark woman of age then Mance might have considered this, but there was not.

1 hour ago, Evolett said:

When Bran was attacked during his first ride, Osha suggested taking Bran to Mance Rayder. Osha was very aware of the threat of the Others beyond the Wall. Perhaps there were discussions amongst the leaders of the Freefolk as to how best achieve their goal, with the taking of hostages being an option.

Osha actually had little faith in Mance. As far as Osha knew, Mance was planning on fighting the Others. That's why she was fleeing south.

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The cold winds are rising, and men go out from their fires and never come back … or if they do, they're not men no more, but only wights, with blue eyes and cold black hands. Why do you think I run south with Stiv and Hali and the rest of them fools? Mance thinks he'll fight, the brave sweet stubborn man, like the white walkers were no more than rangers, but what does he know? He can call himself King-beyond-the-Wall all he likes, but he's still just another old black crow who flew down from the Shadow Tower.

The reason she suggested bringing Bran to Mance was for reward. Benjen Stark, as first ranger of the Watch, was a thorn in the side of Mance. Bran was Benjen's own blood so it's a very reasonable suggestion.

1 hour ago, Evolett said:

None of this would be served by killing Bran though and perhaps that was not the Catspaw's mission. 

The theory that the Catspaw came from Mance is very unlikely to be true. I doubt Mance is the sort of man to send a catspaw assassin to do his dirty work. Mance is actually quite honorable and even though he wears no crown, etc., he is a true king who puts his people ahead of his "throne", unlike most of the kings we know.

I would say that it's far more likely that the catspaw was sent by Littlefinger, attached to the king's train all the way from King's Landing with instructions to kill a Stark child when he was there. It would certainly be easier for Littlefinger to access the dagger in King's Landing than it would be for Mance's catspaw to get hold of it. Littlefinger had already made a public show of handing the dagger over to Tyrion at the tourney as part of the framing set-up. And of course we know that Littlefinger was trying to start a war between the Starks and Lannisters.

The only thing that links Mance and the catspaw is a bag of silver, but it's not very strong evidence given that the catspaw would have been paid by whoever sent him and clearly he was paid in silver. Mance is not the only one in Westeros with a bag of silver.

1 hour ago, Evolett said:

This does not mean Val is a Stark but together with all the other parallels I point to in the OP, including her affinity to Ghost, I do see her as possibly having Stark blood. 

If she's an Umber then she probably does have Stark blood as the Starks and Umbers intermarried.

1 hour ago, Evolett said:

Crowfood isn't on a mission beyond the Wall though.

Mors is called Crowfood, because he bit the head off the crow who stole his eye. In Dance, Crowfood says he will side with Stannis but he wants Mance's head as his price, or his skull to drink from, which amounts to the same thing. This seems to be a personal gripe Mors has towards Mance. Mance was a crow. Mors took the head of the crow who took his eye and I believe the parallel here is that Mors knows Mance took Dalla.

1 hour ago, Evolett said:

Val looks as if she's carved from salt - my mistake in the quote above, should have checked the text. So yes, there is a narrative connection to Lot's Wife, and by extension to the burning of Winterfell in the context of my theory. 

Or perhaps it refers to her refusing to look away from Mance/Rattleshirt being devoured by the Red God.

1 hour ago, Evolett said:

You mean heir here. Brandon wasn't Rickard's only son.

Sorry, I meant oldest son, not only son. Typo.

2 hours ago, Evolett said:

The point is, if Dalla turns out to be a daughter of Brandon, baby Aemon can be considered as heir to Winterfell, a child of Brandon's line. 

And how would Mance prove that Dalla is the bastard of Brandon, given that no one seems to think Brandon had kids. And why would a potential bastard of Brandon become heir of Winterfell? Do you really think that if Mance showed up with a wife he claims to be Brandon Stark's bastard, the North would just roll over and accept it?

 

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2 hours ago, Evolett said:

There's the problem of age. If Dalla is a child of Brandon, she is probably only a few years older than Robb and Jon, making her somewhat too young to have had a dalliance with while Mance was still a brother of the Watch. Maybe he became aware of her roots back then to later track her down, we can only speculate. I tend to lean toward his meeting her after his second trip to Winterfell. 

Or maybe she’s not the child of Brandon.

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16 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Jon's not in a position to know the sequence of events with Mance and Dalla though.

Why wouldn’t he be though?  Presumably his conversations with Mance and Dalla would have continued after his POV chapter and before he left to scale the Wall.  It seems that he’s familiar with Mance’s general story.

But regardless, we know that Jon heard the same info from Mance that the reader was privy to.  That Mance met Dalla on his return from Winterfell.  Yet, Jon does not come to the conclusion that it was Mance’s second trip to Winterfell that Mance was referring to.

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2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Why wouldn’t he be though?  Presumably his conversations with Mance and Dalla would have continued after his POV chapter and before he left to scale the Wall.  It seems that he’s familiar with Mance’s general story.

But regardless, we know that Jon heard the same info from Mance that the reader was privy to.  That Mance met Dalla on his return from Winterfell.  Yet, Jon does not come to the conclusion that it was Mance’s second trip to Winterfell that Mance was referring to.

Jon does not come to any conclusion about whether it was the first or second trip as far as I can see. He's talking about Mance's oathbreaking and he's listing off his crimes in the order they appear in the Watch vows. Mance ended his watch. He took a wife. He made himself a king. I don't see the need to presume anything about off page conversations.

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21 hours ago, Evolett said:

Why sould this reference Mors Crowfood in particular? There're probably famous singers out there who can be regarded as "better men."

It’s not a reference to crow food at all imo… I think it’s telling us that the songs aren’t literally about Mance, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t used as telling references.

Mance is notoriously called “the best of us, and the worst as well” by the Halfhand.

“He never learned to obey”, and meanwhile “all men must serve” is the other half of “all men must die”… which is used in the Dornishman’s Wife song.

21 hours ago, Evolett said:

 

On 4/27/2022 at 12:24 PM, Mourning Star said:

The name Mors belongs to a handful of other characters in ASoIaF, all of whom come from Dorne. Most notably, Mors Martell was the prince, and first husband of Nymeria of Ny Sar and founded the current royal line of Dorne, his grandson Mors II, and Doran's dead brother. Mors Manwoody, heir to Kingsgrave, accompanied Oberyn to King's Landing. (A Qorgyle is also among Oberyn's entourage.)

Expand  

I take it this is the reasoning behind Val's being a princess?
 

I have no idea what you are talking about here.

I’m pointing out that it seems like Mors is a Dornish name, and Mance changed the song from the Dornishman’s Wife to the Northman’s Daughter, and Mors had a daughter taken by wildlings.

21 hours ago, Evolett said:
On 4/27/2022 at 10:46 AM, Frey family reunion said:

I don’t know if this matters to your theory or not, but there may be some ambiguity as to which trip to Winterfell Mance was referring to.

Yes. However, if he met Dalla after the first trip to Winterfell, that would be about 10 years ago approx.? Even if less than 10 years, it's rather a long time to wait to start raising a family. Mance was mostly grey-haired when Jon met him, suggesting he was not the youngest of men. Why would the couple wait so long? There's moon-tea, miscarrages etc. but it still seems odd in a world where most couples strive to have children soon after marriage. 

Mance was facing down every would be king in the north.
Plenty of other characters are married for extended periods without having children. We have no idea if they had stillborn children or what the situation was. I don’t see an issue here.

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1 hour ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Jon does not come to any conclusion about whether it was the first or second trip as far as I can see. He's talking about Mance's oathbreaking and he's listing off his crimes in the order they appear in the Watch vows. Mance ended his watch. He took a wife. He made himself a king. I don't see the need to presume anything about off page conversations.

Ok, I see your perspective.  I’m still on the fence about the issue, I see pros and cons with both scenarios to be honest.

Both Val and Dalla definitely seems to identity themselves with the wildlings and not the kneelers.  That doesn’t necessarily mean that they had to have been born and raised north of the Wall, but it might suggest that.  If Mance met Dalla on his first return trip from Winterfell, then in all probability he was returning to the Wall, thus he met Dalla somewhere south of the Wall.  Odds are she would have been born and raised south of the Wall then. 

If he had met Dalla after his second return trip from Winterfell, then that at least opens the door to having met her North of the Wall, before he got back to the Frostfangs or wherever he massing his horde at the time.  In my mind that’s at least an argument that he might have met her on his second trip.

Of course the other possibility is that Dalla may have originally lived South of the Wall, but had lived with the wildlings long enough to have fully embraced their customs, and identity.  That might argue in favor of Mance having met Dalla earlier than Robert’s banquet, since it gives a longer period of time for Dalla to have immersed herself in the wildling culture.

I agree that Mance hasn’t been with Dalla since his first trip to Winterfell, that speaks of too long a period of time.  But that doesn’t necessarily mean that Mance didn’t first meet Dalla during that period.  If so and if he met her south of the Wall, that opens up the timeline a bit for Mance to have sought Dalla back out after he left the Watch and allows more time for Dalla to have embraced the wildling culture as her own.

If Mance didn’t meet Dalla until after his second trip to Winterfell, then I would have to assume that he probably met Dalla in one of the wildling villages that he was actively encouraging to join his group.  Because she associates too strongly as a wildling for her to have just arrived within the group.

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15 minutes ago, Mourning Star said:

Plenty of other characters are married for extended periods without having children. We have no idea if they had stillborn children or what the situation was. I don’t see an issue here.

It is perfectly feasible that Mance and Dalla chose not to have a child for 10 years or indeed they had children that did not survive. But it is equally feasible that they had a child soon after being married. So this point is a stalemate really.

However, first time to Winterfell Mance was a brother of the Watch, traveling with the Lord Commander. We need a rather convoluted explanation to account for this, such as Mance just met Dalla on his way back to the Wall. Then he returned to the Shadow Tower. Went ranging and had the encounter with the shadowcat north of the Wall, was nursed back to health and had his cloak sewn, was told to burn the cloak on his return to the Shadow Tower, left the Watch for a place where a kiss was not a crime and a man could wear whatever cloak he chose, (a clear reference to the woman who nursed him back to health north of the Wall), but went to find Dalla instead, who presumably lived somewhere south of the Wall.

Second time he was the king of the free folk, traveling by himself disguised as a bard, and it is the free folk tradition to "steal" wives. Even if you don't believe Dalla is an Umber, meeting her on the second trip just makes much more sense in my opinion.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

If he had met Dalla after his second return trip from Winterfell, then that at least opens the door to having met her North of the Wall, before he got back to the Frostfangs or wherever he massing his horde at the time.  In my mind that’s at least an argument that he might have met her on his second trip.

I agree, and I think we are meant to assume he met her somewhere north of the Wall on his return after the second trip. This is what I believed for some time. I took the bait. But the more I thought about Mance, his affinity for Bael, and his plan beyond getting past the Wall, I started to change my mind.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Both Val and Dalla definitely seems to identity themselves with the wildlings and not the kneelers.  That doesn’t necessarily mean that they had to have been born and raised north of the Wall, but it might suggest that.  If Mance met Dalla on his first return trip from Winterfell, then in all probability he was returning to the Wall, thus he met Dalla somewhere south of the Wall.  Odds are she would have been born and raised south of the Wall then. 

This is an important point. Val and Dalla identify as free folk, so how could they be Umbers?

Val first. If she is Crowfood's grand-daughter then she was born north of the Wall after her mother was stolen as a wife 30 years ago and therefore has been a woman of the free folk all her life.

However there is a clue that she may have southron origins, or should I say a southron high born mother. Val says "my lord" not "m'lord." Roose explained the difference to Theon. I think this must come from her mother. Not conclusive but I do feel it's a hint.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

Of course the other possibility is that Dalla may have originally lived South of the Wall, but had lived with the wildlings long enough to have fully embraced their customs, and identity.  That might argue in favor of Mance having met Dalla earlier than Robert’s banquet, since it gives a longer period of time for Dalla to have immersed herself in the wildling culture.

I agree that Mance hasn’t been with Dalla since his first trip to Winterfell, that speaks of too long a period of time.  But that doesn’t necessarily mean that Mance didn’t first meet Dalla during that period.  If so and if he met her south of the Wall, that opens up the timeline a bit for Mance to have sought Dalla back out after he left the Watch and allows more time for Dalla to have embraced the wildling culture as her own.

Dalla says "we free folk" which suggests she is what she seems, a wildling woman. I take your point that she might have embraced the culture after a period of time. However, it might have been rather quick. I feel we get a clue to this in a conversation between Jon and Mance, shortly after Jon had turned his cloak, regarding the Fist of the First Men.

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Jon's face was throbbing, the snow kept coming down, and it was hard to think. You must not balk, whatever is asked of you, Qhorin had told him. The words stuck in his throat, but he made himself say, "There were three hundred of us."

"Us?" Mance said sharply.

"Them. Three hundred of them." Whatever is asked, the Halfhand said. So why do I feel so craven? "Two hundred from Castle Black, and one hundred from the Shadow Tower."

 

Jon quickly learns what side of the us and them divide he needs to be on around Mance. Dalla is the wife of the King-beyond-the-Wall. I think she knows what side of the divide she is on too. To her the free folk are "we" and the kneelers are them.

The following is speculation, I admit, but it is based on my firm belief that Mance must have had some plan on how to keep the free folk south of the Wall if ever he got that far. He's a peace-maker and a peaceful solution would be most desirable, given that he feels the free folk have bled enough already. And peaceful solutions require opening a dialogue between enemies. It's a bold move but no one ever named Mance fainthearted, according to Qhorin. We see on his third trip to Winterfell that he is certainly ballsy.

I think Dalla was completely on-board with Mance from day one. I don't think she was taken from the Last Hearth against her will. Mance is a charming guy. I doubt too many people with his charisma visit the Last Hearth, and I suspect she was smitten by the singer.

If Mance took the opportunity to open discussions with Greatjon under the protection of guest right, proposing the possibility of peace between free folk and Umbers as future neighbors, I imagine Greatjon probably shot the idea down due to the centuries of hatred between both parties. One of the cards Mance might have played is Val; he'd be returning with Crowfood's grand-daughter when he comes south. This might have sweetened the deal somewhat, but probably not enough. In fact it probably enraged Crowfood into wanting Mance's head though guest right would have protected him for the night at least.

However, I think Mance did find one sympathetic ear in Greatjon's hall. His daughter, similar in ways to Davos in the court of Wyman Manderly. I think Dalla believed in Mance's plan, and eloped with him willingly that night.

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

If Mance didn’t meet Dalla until after his second trip to Winterfell, then I would have to assume that he probably met Dalla in one of the wildling villages that he was actively encouraging to join his group.  Because she associates too strongly as a wildling for her to have just arrived within the group.

I accept this is very possible, but if she is just a random wildling woman, then I still struggle to see her purpose or that of her son to the story?

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16 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

However, first time to Winterfell Mance was a brother of the Watch, traveling with the Lord Commander. We need a rather convoluted explanation to account for this, such as Mance just met Dalla on his way back to the Wall. Then he returned to the Shadow Tower. Went ranging and had the encounter with the shadowcat north of the Wall, was nursed back to health and had his cloak sewn, was told to burn the cloak on his return to the Shadow Tower, left the Watch for a place where a kiss was not a crime and a man could wear whatever cloak he chose, (a clear reference to the woman who nursed him back to health north of the Wall), but went to find Dalla instead, who presumably lived somewhere south of the Wall.

Second time he was the king of the free folk, traveling by himself disguised as a bard, and it is the free folk tradition to "steal" wives. Even if you don't believe Dalla is an Umber, meeting her on the second trip just makes much more sense in my opinion.

I think it's actually very easy to see how Mance's first visit could result in meeting Dalla North of the Wall.

Qorgyle's name first appears in Storm of Swords.

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Yes, that was the first time. You were just a boy, and I was all in black, one of a dozen riding escort to old Lord Commander Qorgyle when he came down to see your father at Winterfell.

When Mance says he joined Qorgyle as part of the escort to WInterfell.

Qorgyle was Lord Commander and so presumably they came from Castle Black.

Since Mance was actually stationed at the Shadow Tower, this means he probably first traveled to Castle Black before going to WInterfell.

This also implies he would have to return to the Shadow Tower from Castle Black, and this is the second mention of Qorgyle (the rest are about Arron Qorgyle or the election of Jon as Lord Commander):

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"When do these patrols go out? How often?"
Jon shrugged. "It changes. I've heard that Lord Commander Qorgyle used to send them out every third day from Castle Black to Eastwatch-by-the-Sea, and every second day from Castle Black to the Shadow Tower.

This tells me that in all likelihood, after the visit to Winterfell Mance would have returned to the SHadow Tower as part of a patrol, and it was as part of this patrol, I would suggest, that he was attacked by the Shadowcat.

And then Mance was cared for, got his red slash cloak and returned to the Shadow Tower, where he left in the morning...

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"I left the next morning . . . for a place where a kiss was not a crime, and a man could wear any cloak he chose."

Earlier we have Quorin saying this:

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"For a wench, some say. For a crown, others would have it." Qhorin tested the edge of his sword with the ball of his thumb. "He liked women, Mance did, and he was not a man whose knees bent easily, that's true. But it was more than that. He loved the wild better than the Wall. It was in his blood. He was wildling born, taken as a child when some raiders were put to the sword. When he left the Shadow Tower he was only going home again."

We know Mance doesn't wear a crown, and the explanation that it was because he has wildling blood is just bigotry. It's like blaming him for having a brother of the watch as a father.

I am more inclined to think he had multiple reasons, but it was the woman (Dalla) that made him desert. I feel it best fits the plot and the message of the series.

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@three-eyed monkey and @Mourning Star

Has there been any good explanation for why Old Flint and The Norrey each brought a wet-nurse for Val’s “monster”?  

They don’t seem very fond of wildlings, so it seems odd that they’d go out of their way to bring a wet nurse for a the alleged son of Mance and Dalla.  Even stranger if they knew the child’s true parentage.

So did they do it for Dalla?  Did they do it for Val?  And if so why?  Is there a possibility that either Val or Dalla could be a relation to the Mountain Clans?

We know that wildlings aren’t in the habit of wearing a symbol of their house:

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Like so much else, heraldry ended at the Wall. The Thenns had no family arms as was customary amongst the nobles of the Seven Kingdoms, so Jon told the stewards to improvise. He thought they had done well. The bride’s cloak Sigorn fastened about Lady Alys’s shoulders showed a bronze disk on a field of white wool, surrounded by flames made with wisps of crimson silk. The echo of the Karstark sunburst was there for those who cared to look, but differenced to make the arms appropriate for House Thenn.

So they had to make a special brooch use to clasp Alys’ wedding cloak since the the Thenns used nothing of the sort.

Yet oddly enough, when Val inherits Dalla’s outfit, a customized brooch accompanies it:

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Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings.

The wildlings may not fashion their cloaks with customized brooches, but the Mountain clans do:

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Bran figured him for a Liddle. The clasp that fastened his squirrelskin cloak was gold and bronze and wrought in the shape of a pinecone, and the Liddles bore pinecones on the white half of their green-and-white shields.

So perhaps Mance first met Dalla in the somewhere in the Mountain clans where he most probably would have had to cross if he was traveling back to the Shadow Tower from Winterfell.

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37 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Has there been any good explanation for why Old Flint and The Norrey each brought a wet-nurse for Val’s “monster”?  

They don’t seem very fond of wildlings, so it seems odd that they’d go out of their way to bring a wet nurse for a the alleged son of Mance and Dalla.  Even stranger if they knew the child’s true parentage.

So did they do it for Dalla?  Did they do it for Val?  And if so why?  Is there a possibility that either Val or Dalla could be a relation to the Mountain Clans?

Nice that you bring this up because these two, Old Flint and The Norrey as well as the Liddle and perhaps Big Bucket Wull are on my shortlist for the maternal line(s) of Dalla and Val. 

Old Flint and The Norrey bringing wet nurses to the Wall attracted my notice. Then there is the brooch "heraldry" you mention above which Bran noticed on the Liddle as well as the fact that the Liddles appear to be able to keep a secret. The Liddle Bran and the children meet knew who Bran was, at least this appear to be the case from what we know of the conversation in the cave. If he's kept this secret for so long, he might also never have divulged Val or Dalla's heritage, if any of the two (or both) were the daughters of Brandon. Big Liddle also features in Jon's chapters. He is a man of the NW and part of the honor guard that sees the wildlings through the wall. An interesting hint imo - he removes two girls disguised as boys from the hostages.

 

Old Flint is very interesting because Arya Flint, great-grandmother to the current Stark kids and said by Old Nan to have had the wolf-blood, comes from that clan. Val originating from that clan could also explain her "wolf-blood" characteristics. 

There isn't much I can read into regarding the Norrey except for his name. Both the Norrey (the elder) and his heir are named Brandon (Brandon and Brandon the Younger).

The Wull - Big Bucket Wull appears to be a passionate supporter of Ned and House Stark. He's with Stannis and prefers to fight and die for Ned's little girl rather than die alone and hungry in the snow. And perhaps a fun clue alluding to Dalla's pregnancy: he's said to have the biggest belly in the northern mountains.  

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1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

@three-eyed monkey and @Mourning Star

Has there been any good explanation for why Old Flint and The Norrey each brought a wet-nurse for Val’s “monster”?

Presumably they were asked to by Stannis?

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Old Flint and The Norrey had been given places of high honor just below the dais. Both men had been too old to march with Stannis; they had sent their sons and grandsons in their stead. But they had been quick enough to descend on Castle Black for the wedding. Each had brought a wet nurse to the Wall as well.

I think the better question is why Old Flint and Norrey come themselves, and the answer is to judge Jon Snow for themselves.

Stannis wanted to name Jon lord of WInterfell, and Robb may have made him his heir.

The Liddles, at least, also know Bran is alive.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

They don’t seem very fond of wildlings, so it seems odd that they’d go out of their way to bring a wet nurse for a the alleged son of Mance and Dalla.  Even stranger if they knew the child’s true parentage.

Not really. Stannis asks them to send a wet nurse to keep his captive alive. Doesn't seem unreasonable or remarkable to me.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

So did they do it for Dalla?  Did they do it for Val?  And if so why?  Is there a possibility that either Val or Dalla could be a relation to the Mountain Clans?

Or they just did it for Stannis.

1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said:

We know that wildlings aren’t in the habit of wearing a symbol of their house:

So they had to make a special brooch use to clasp Alys’ wedding cloak since the the Thenns used nothing of the sort.

Yet oddly enough, when Val inherits Dalla’s outfit, a customized brooch accompanies it:

The wildlings may not fashion their cloaks with customized brooches, but the Mountain clans do:

So perhaps Mance first met Dalla in the somewhere in the Mountain clans where he most probably would have had to cross if he was traveling back to the Shadow Tower from Winterfell.

I don't understand your point here... what do you mean inherited Dalla's outfit?

White is the major color of the Old Gods. We see it all over the North. White bearskins notably make up Mance's tent and, notably here, are worn by the Umbers.

Brooches are among the treasures Jon takes from the wildlings. They may not use family sigils, but they use brooches...

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44 minutes ago, Evolett said:

Big Liddle also features in Jon's chapters. He is a man of the NW and part of the honor guard that sees the wildlings through the wall. An interesting hint imo - he removes two girls disguised as boys from the hostages.

 

Old Flint is very interesting because Arya Flint, great-grandmother to the current Stark kids and said by Old Nan to have had the wolf-blood, comes from that clan. Val originating from that clan could also explain her "wolf-blood" characteristics. 

Side Note: I also find this interesting especially given the Song about Brave Danny Flint

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3 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I don't understand your point here... what do you mean inherited Dalla's outfit?

Val says the outfit was given to her by Dalla:

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These clothes were given to me by Dalla, I would sooner not get bloodstains all over them.”

 

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Far-fetched and inventive of a theory presented for our consideration.  I am not buying but it is nonetheless worthy of discussion.  Mance Rayder has been watching Winterfell.  We know for sure it wasn't for the silver because the Starks are poor.  He had a thing going with Lyanna Stark.  The years have not dulled his infatuation with Lyanna. 

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35 minutes ago, Evolett said:

Val says the outfit was given to her by Dalla:

Nice catch! Although technically a gift is not an inheritance since she would have been alive when she gave the gift presumably... but that doesn't really change your point.

I do think a Weirwood brooch fits with the daughter of a free folk wise woman.

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21 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Has there been any good explanation for why Old Flint and The Norrey each brought a wet-nurse for Val’s “monster”

19 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I think the better question is why Old Flint and Norrey come themselves, and the answer is to judge Jon Snow for themselves.

Stannis wanted to name Jon lord of WInterfell, and Robb may have made him his heir.

I agree that they came to judge Jon for themselves. I don't think it is because Stannis wanted to name Jon as Lord of Winterfell but rather that he was Robb's heir.

This was one of the points back in the day when the Grand Northern Conspiracy theory was being put together shortly after the release of Dance. I'm still of the belief that the intention to crown Jon and return Winterfell and the North to the Starks goes well beyond White Harbor. In fact I think most of the North are involved in the plan. Certainly Crowfood and Whorsebane Umber. Definitely Bear Island too. The Northern Clans. And of course, Lady Barbery.

22 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I am more inclined to think he had multiple reasons, but it was the woman (Dalla) that made him desert. I feel it best fits the plot and the message of the series.

I accept you can make it work for Mance's first trip to Winterfell, with explanations like the one you have given above, but I'm still not convinced.

Why would the Lord Commander, who I agree would probably be stationed at Castle Black, request someone to come from the Shadow Tower to escort him to Winterfell? A simpler explanation might be that Mance was stationed at Castle Black at the time, and then later was stationed at the Shadow Tower. Or perhaps our assumption that the Lord Commander was stationed at Castle Black is wrong and he was at the Shadow Tower.
 

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"I see a woman." He glanced at Dalla.

Mance took her by the hand and pulled her close. "My lady is blameless. I met her on my return from your father's castle.

 

Mance told Jon he met Dalla on his return from Winterfell and that she is blameless when it comes to him deserting the Watch. He also told Jon the story about the Shadowcat, implying that the unnamed woman who nursed him was part of the reason he left the Watch for a place where a kiss was not a crime. These two stories don't tally if Dalla is that woman, as you claim.

The second trip makes far more sense to me. It also makes more sense to me that Val, not Dalla, was the woman who nursed Mance and mended his cloak.

21 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

So perhaps Mance first met Dalla in the somewhere in the Mountain clans where he most probably would have had to cross if he was traveling back to the Shadow Tower from Winterfell.

Yes, if he's returning to the Shadow Tower and he met Dalla on the first trip.

However, we get clues that Mance traveled through Umber lands the second time. Raiders have been coming across the Bay of Seals for centuries. Mance tells Jon he could send an army across the Bay of Seals and take Eastwatch from the south. Mance says he knows hidey-holes east of Long Lake, and he has used them from time to time. That's Umber lands.

And again, I think "stealing" a bride in wildling tradition is far more likely to have been done when he was King-beyond-the-Wall and not a brother of the Watch in the company of his Lord Commander. Both scenarios are possible but I think the later is far more probable.

 

 

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When Mance was injured by the shadowcat and he and his men sought the woods witch for help, wasn’t he helped by her granddaughter? Maybe Dalla was only 8 years old when Mance first met her? Surely children are blameless for what adults do?

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20 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

I do think a Weirwood brooch fits with the daughter of a free folk wise woman.

The thing about a Weirwood brooch is that it can represent the free folk but also the North. As such it is a symbol that unifies both cultures.

My instinct about this gift from Dalla to Val, although I can't prove it, is that it was given when Mance first introduced the two girls. When Dalla left the Last Heart to go north with Mance, she knew she would be meeting a lost Umber, and so she brought a gift for the occasion. White breeches, boots, cloak, and tunic. White being a color that is symbolic of peace and harmony, which is further emphasized by the fact that Val would rather not stain the outfit with blood.

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