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Immediate consequences of Jon's betrayal of the NW


Rondo
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17 minutes ago, Hugorfonics said:

Iirc the mountain clans (clansmen leaders sounds too non PC for my taste lol) only make an appearance in adwd. They call Asha a cunt and wear ski shoes. Right? 

After Deepwood some went to Jon but most headed to Winterfell?

The first one who makes an appearance in the story is a Liddle back in a Bran, ASoS. I don't know if you remember the cave scene. He shares his food with Bran and the others. After that, yes, they show up in The Wayward Bride chapter. The one who calls Asha that lovely word is Morgan Liddle. 

After Deepwood, they all head toward Winterfell to take it back from the Boltons, but get stranded at the crofter's village, that's where you'll find them in the tracker under crofter's village since it's their last known location. 

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7 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

NW no. CB, maybe. Last election wasn't that long ago where Jon was made LC by the two adjacent castles, CB largely voted for antiSnow Janos

Yeah fair enough. It'll be interesting! 

7 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Definitely, messy and bloody. Hopefully through the carnage of it all the whole wall falls with them. Or at the least the NW gets drastically altered

(Lol ive been pretty destructive lately, IT, DK, The Wall. Lol, I don't think Ive always been like this)

Haha! It's the wait, I'm telling ya, makes cynics out of all of us! 

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19 minutes ago, Alexis-something-Rose said:

The first one who makes an appearance in the story is a Liddle back in a Bran, ASoS. I don't know if you remember the cave scene. He shares his food with Bran and the others. After that, yes, they show up in The Wayward Bride chapter. The one who calls Asha that lovely word is Morgan Liddle. 

After Deepwood, they all head toward Winterfell to take it back from the Boltons, but get stranded at the crofter's village, that's where you'll find them in the tracker under crofter's village since it's their last known location. 

Word, that's got like my actual favorite quote. "I dreamed it" 

(Bolton men at arms are hunting Bran and co. The liddle with fellowship of the ring type food knows this. Did big buckets know Ned's little boys were alive when he went to war for Neda little girl?)

Ok cool. So I'm not following why you think they know what's in Robbs will. I thought only random Mallister and Moromnts knew that. (The ones who went to Reed and not RW)

 

 

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5 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

What Jon did will eventually be the cause of the Night’s Watch downfall. It will be wildlings against the men of the watch. It can only weaken the wall.  

Wasn't it this way anyway? Jon was trying to mend the bad blood between them, Bowen wanted to continue it. So can we really blame Jon for the discord between them? 

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3 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Just about all of the black brothers will understand why Bowen killed Jon.  Samwell would have too if he had been around. The northern lords are not happy with the Karstark-Wildling marriage. Jon made that wedding happen.  His only sympathy will come from the Wildlings.  

Come now, Samwell? Not a chance. Besides there is a far cry from understanding why he did it & supporting it. It's illegal, they murdered their lord commander. No one supported the men that murdered LC Mormont... 

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15 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

 

 

15 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Yeah fair enough. It'll be interesting! 

Haha! It's the wait, I'm telling ya, makes cynics out of all of us! 

Lol for sure. I'm still way into these books, obviously, but I'm not nearly as attached. I mean I was advocating killing Arya, I woulda never done that before. I've always hated the wall and nw but I used to not want it to fall, I don't remember my reasoning. KL I think is really cool and the RK especially, tbh I was kinda upset Cersei burnt the tower. But now? Whatever Dany feels comfortable with :). And since you've brought up DK, a place I never really thought about, lol. Oh time!

13 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Wasn't it this way anyway? Jon was trying to mend the bad blood between them, Bowen wanted to continue it. So can we really blame Jon for the discord between them? 

Lol too rational

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3 hours ago, Hugorfonics said:

Word, that's got like my actual favorite quote. "I dreamed it" 

(Bolton men at arms are hunting Bran and co. The liddle with fellowship of the ring type food knows this. Did big buckets know Ned's little boys were alive when he went to war for Neda little girl?)

Ok cool. So I'm not following why you think they know what's in Robbs will. I thought only random Mallister and Moromnts knew that. (The ones who went to Reed and not RW)

 

 

A Glover knows.

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Jon and Bowen are both in the wrong here. The key point is that the Watch take no part in the wars of the Seven Kingdoms.
 

Quote

 

"The men who formed the Night's Watch knew that only their courage shielded the realm from the darkness to the north. They knew they must have no divided loyalties to weaken their resolve. So they vowed they would have no wives nor children.

"Yet brothers they had, and sisters. Mothers who gave them birth, fathers who gave them names. They came from a hundred quarrelsome kingdoms, and they knew times may change, but men do not. So they pledged as well that the Night's Watch would take no part in the battles of the realms it guarded.

"They kept their pledge. When Aegon slew Black Harren and claimed his kingdom, Harren's brother was Lord Commander on the Wall, with ten thousand swords to hand. He did not march. In the days when the Seven Kingdoms were seven kingdoms, not a generation passed that three or four of them were not at war. The Watch took no part. When the Andals crossed the narrow sea and swept away the kingdoms of the First Men, the sons of the fallen kings held true to their vows and remained at their posts. So it has always been, for years beyond counting. Such is the price of honor.

 

Jon himself accepts that he is about to forswear his vows.

Quote

"The Night's Watch takes no part in the wars of the Seven Kingdoms," Jon reminded them when some semblance of quiet had returned. "It is not for us to oppose the Bastard of Bolton, to avenge Stannis Baratheon, to defend his widow and his daughter. This creature who makes cloaks from the skins of women has sworn to cut my heart out, and I mean to make him answer for those words … but I will not ask my brothers to forswear their vows.

But Bowen is equally guilty, although it's perhaps not quite as obvious. Bowen is concerned about the Watch being labelled traitors to the Iron Throne for aiding Stannis.

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"Lord Stannis helped us when we needed help," Marsh said doggedly, "but he is still a rebel, and his cause is doomed. As doomed as we'll be if the Iron Throne marks us down as traitors. We must be certain that we do not choose the losing side."

So Bowen is actually advocating taking part in the war between Stannis and the Iron Throne, by insisting that the Watch choose a side, and not the losing side who he sees as Stannis. In other words, Bowen is in favor of siding with the crown against the rebel Stannis, which is taking part.

Jon insists that he is not choosing sides, but that's not really true as he is clearly waging a proxy war against the Bolton's through Stannis when he assists Stannis in several aspects of his campaign.

We can trace the Iron Throne's concern about Jon and Stannis back to a small council meeting with Cersei.

Quote

 

"Snow shares Lord Eddard's taste for treason too," she said. "The father would have handed the realm to Stannis. The son has given him lands and castles."

"The Night's Watch is sworn to take no part in the wars of the Seven Kingdoms," Pycelle reminded them. "For thousands of years the black brothers have upheld that tradition."

 

So Cersei's council see Jon as a traitor.
 

Quote

 

"Until now," said Cersei. "The bastard boy has written us to avow that the Night's Watch takes no side, but his actions give the lie to his words. He has given Stannis food and shelter, yet has the insolence to plead with us for arms and men."

"An outrage," declared Lord Merryweather. "We cannot allow the Night's Watch to join its strength to that of Lord Stannis."

"We must declare this Snow a traitor and a rebel," agreed Ser Harys Swyft. "The black brothers must remove him."

 

Ser Harys Swyft, who was Hand at the time, suggests the Watch must remove Jon.

Quote

Grand Maester Pycelle nodded ponderously. "I propose that we inform Castle Black that no more men will be sent to them until such time as Snow is gone."

Pycelle proposes informing Castle Black that the Watch must remove their Lord Commander or else...

Cersei prefers a different course of action, however, and jumps on Qyburn's idea.

Quote

 

"This," Qyburn said. "For years now, the Night's Watch has begged for men. Lord Stannis has answered their plea. Can King Tommen do less? His Grace should send the Wall a hundred men. To take the black, ostensibly, but in truth . . ."

". . . to remove Jon Snow from the command," Cersei finished, delighted. I knew I was right to want him on my council. "That is just what we shall do." She laughed. If this bastard boy is truly his father's son, he will not suspect a thing. Perhaps he will even thank me, before the blade slides between his ribs. "It will need to be done carefully, to be sure. Leave the rest to me, my lords." This was how an enemy should be dealt with: with a dagger, not a declaration. "We have done good work today, my lords. I thank you. Is there aught else?"

 

Cersei tells the council to leave it to her, and in what she believes to be a Tywin moment, concocts a plan to kill two birds with one stone. Osney Kettleblack will confess to sleeping with Margery, he'll then take the black for his crimes, and kill Jon when he gets to the Wall. But this plan backfires when the High Sparrow breaks Kettleblack and Cersei is imprisoned.

Later, Qyburn visits Cersei in her cell and tells her that he has been removed from the small council and Swyft and Pycelle have been running the realm in her absence.

Quote

"Alas, I have been dismissed from the council, although for the nonce they allow me to continue my work with the eunuch's whisperers. The realm is being ruled by Ser Harys Swyft and Grand Maester Pycelle.

The implication of this is that Swyft and Pycelle's preferred method of dealing with the Jon Snow situation, which was declaring Jon a traitor and informing Castle Black that he must be removed is the way the council went in Cersei and Qyburn's absence. By informing Castle Black, they most likely mean Bowen Marsh, who is a senior officer of the Watch.

So Bowen, under pressure from King's Landing, has no choice but move against Jon when the Pink Letter arrives and Jon outlines his intentions. Again, this is taking a side.

The bottom line is that both Jon and Bowen have allowed themselves be drawn into the game of thrones, instead of taking no part. Therefore the men of the Watch are no longer true, involving themselves in the politics of the realm rather than the defense of the realm, which is the duty they are sworn to uphold.

And what happens when the men of the Watch are no longer true?

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Bran found himself remembering the tales Old Nan had told him when he was a babe. Beyond the Wall the monsters live, the giants and the ghouls, the stalking shadows and the dead that walk, she would say, tucking him in beneath his scratchy woolen blanket, but they cannot pass so long as the Wall stands strong and the men of the Night's Watch are true.

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"He's dead." Bran could taste the bile in his throat. "Meera, he's some dead thing. The monsters cannot pass so long as the Wall stands and the men of the Night's Watch stay true, that's what Old Nan used to say. He came to meet us at the Wall, but he could not pass. He sent Sam instead, with that wildling girl."

The Others can pass the Wall.

Now some will argue that they cannot while the Wall still stands, but I think that's missing the point because as Ned says:

Quote

"No wall can keep you safe," his father had told him once, as they walked the walls of Winterfall. "A wall is only as strong as the men who defend it."

So I believe this is the major consequence of the most recent events at Castle Black. I'm sure there will be a bloodbath, but expect those killed in the battle to start rising with blue eyes, including Jon.

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On 4/26/2022 at 5:49 PM, Rondo said:

Lord Commander Jon Snow betrayed the NW and dragged the ancient Brotherhood into conflict with Roose Bolton.  The immediate consequence is chaos within Castle Black.  This unrest will spread to the other forts on the wall and will lead to a divided Brotherhood.  While most will agree with Bowen Marsh, there will undoubtedly be some who will disagree with the assassination of their lord commander.  Regardless of how erratic and incompetent Jon was, he was their elected lord commander.  What will happen shortly after Jon takes his last breath:

  1. Wun the Giant will be killed but not without trouble.
  2. Bowen Marsh will take over as the interim Lord Commander.  He will organize Castle Black but the wildlings will not be placated.
  3. I do not think Bowen and the Brother will be able to stop the wildlings from leaving the castle to attack the Boltons.
  4. The Weeper and his people will come calling just when the castle is in disorder.

What else?

I don’t know what will happen to WW. What made him go all out nuts?  Patrek is not stupid enough to attack the giant. WW started that fight.  BM will have the full backing of the Watch because Jon admitted to his crimes. His speech was that admission of improper, illegal, and treasonous conduct. BM will not get any opposition from the Watch. He had no choice but to stop his rogue lord commander. 

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9 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Jon himself accepts that he is about to forswear his vows

I understand he says this but he is answering a threat to the NW. Surely, the black brothers are not expected to not defend themselves? 

 

9 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Jon insists that he is not choosing sides, but that's not really true as he is clearly waging a proxy war against the Bolton's through Stannis when he assists Stannis in several aspects of his campaign

I disagree. He is not waging any war, proxy or no. He has given Stannis advice, he has fed his men, but how could he not when Stannis is the only one to answer the call for help? If he truly wanted to help Stannis's cause he could have accepted the legitimization Stannis was offering him. 

9 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

So Cersei's council see Jon as a traitor

Tbf, Cersei is a traitor. They would see him as a traitor regardless because he is Ned's son. 

There is nothing treasonous, IMO, in helping the only army that answered the call for help, to stay alive. Food, shelter, etc. This is what Jon gives them. 

9 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

So Bowen, under pressure from King's Landing, has no choice but move against Jon when the Pink Letter arrives and Jon outlines his intentions. Again, this is taking a side.

He certainly had a choice. 

9 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

The bottom line is that both Jon and Bowen have allowed themselves be drawn into the game of thrones, instead of taking no part. Therefore the men of the Watch are no longer true, involving themselves in the politics of the realm rather than the defense of the realm, which is the duty they are sworn to uphold

Ramsay threatened the NW. He threatened Jon directly. Jon did not involve himself in the politics of the realm, not when they have decimated his childhood home, not  when being told his sister was being married to this monster. He does nothing to move against Ramsay until Ramsay makes demands of the NW that cannot & should not be met & directly threatens the NW & Jon. 

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As others have mentioned, unless Bowen Marsh has a very clever plan to get out of the mess he's just created, I don't think he will live very long. Regardless of whether his actions are justifiable or not, many of the wildlings at the wall support Jon, and they outnumber the Night's Watch. Not even including pro-Jon watchmen, I think the pro-Jon faction would outnumber the neutrals and conspirators. Tensions between the wildlings and the watchmen were already high, and Jon's death will make things much worse. I feel that conflict is unavoidable at this point and it will probably be very bloody.

Also, if Ramsay wrote the pink letter, then conflict between the Watch and the Boltons seems inevitable no matter who is in charge. He's demanding they hand over hostages who they simply don't have. Even if someone else takes over in the meantime, they can't fulfill the conditions.

All of this is no good as it will reduce the number of men able to guard the wall and give free soldiers to the Others, unless they manage to burn all the bodies.

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3 hours ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

I understand he says this but he is answering a threat to the NW. Surely, the black brothers are not expected to not defend themselves?

The Watch take no part. This is why Castle Black can only be defended from the north. Their duty is to defend the realm from the threat from beyond the Wall, and not become involved in the internal wars of the realm. Aemon explains this and why this is in the passage I quoted above.

Jon understands what Aemon told him. He says it is not for the Watch to avenge Stannis or oppose Ramsay. As such, Jon should comply with the demands in the letter and get on with defending the realm.  However, Jon has decided that he will make Ramsay answer for his words (even though they are not Ramsay's words, but that is beside the point). Jon knows this could well constitute forswearing his vows and that's why he looks for swords amongst the wildlings rather than his sworn brothers.

Certainly if Ramsay attacked Castle Black, then naturally the Watch would be expected to defend themselves against the attack, but theoretically this should not occur if the Watch take no part as Ramsay would have no reason to attack Castle Black. If the Watch take no part and Ramsay attacks unprovoked, then the act of aggression is on Ramsay's part and the Watch would be fully justified in defending themselves.

4 hours ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

I disagree. He is not waging any war, proxy or no. He has given Stannis advice, he has fed his men, but how could he not when Stannis is the only one to answer the call for help? If he truly wanted to help Stannis's cause he could have accepted the legitimization Stannis was offering him. 

Stannis answered the call against the wildlings, and if Stannis is there to defend the realm from further threats from beyond the Wall, then fine. Jon is justified in accommodating Stannis and his army.

However, Stannis has another agenda too. Having defeated Mance, Stannis resumed his campaign for the Iron Throne, the first step of which is winning the North. The Watch should take no part in that, but Jon has repeatedly assisted Stannis in this matter. Advice about attacking the Dreadfort, or recruiting the northern clans to his cause. Informing Stannis that Arnulf Karstark is going to betray him. Jon clearly wants Stannis to win against the Boltons.

Jon could accept Stannis' offer, and he considered it plenty, but he always resisted the offer and upheld his vows much to Stannis' frustration. He was caught in a hard place between Winterfell and the Watch, family and duty, which is what Aemon warned him of, and felt he needed to choose duty. This is the central conflict Jon faced all through Dance, until he finally caved in when the pink letter came. Protecting Arya was a large part of his motive, but also the fact that he though Stannis was defeated and therefore his proxy war had ended, meaning he now had to fight the war against Ramsay overtly.

4 hours ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Tbf, Cersei is a traitor. They would see him as a traitor regardless because he is Ned's son. 

There is nothing treasonous, IMO, in helping the only army that answered the call for help, to stay alive. Food, shelter, etc. This is what Jon gives them. 

Objectively, I agree. Jon made this case in his letter to King's Landing. But from Cersei's point of view Jon is assisting her enemy.

4 hours ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

He certainly had a choice. 

Bowen did have a choice. There comes a day when every man must choose, as Aemon said, and Bowen chose to take a side rather than take no part.

4 hours ago, Lyanna&lt;3Rhaegar said:

Ramsay threatened the NW. He threatened Jon directly. Jon did not involve himself in the politics of the realm, not when they have decimated his childhood home, not  when being told his sister was being married to this monster. He does nothing to move against Ramsay until Ramsay makes demands of the NW that cannot & should not be met & directly threatens the NW & Jon. 

If Jon did nothing to move against the Bolton's then Stannis would have marched on the Dreadfort with his small army and whatever happened would have been no concern to Jon. That is not the case though.

I agree with you that the demands cannot and should not be met. This is part of the point. Honor is doing the right thing, not necessarily sticking to your duty for as we know there are many good men, like Barristan, sworn to bad causes like Aerys. And Jon always strives to do the right thing, and he strives to keep his oath, but sometimes these things come into conflict and that is the conflict he must learn to resolve.

I'm not dumping on Jon, or Bowen for that matter, I'm just explaining from my perspective how and why the characters find themselves in such a predicament.

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2 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

The Watch take no part. This is why Castle Black can only be defended from the north. Their duty is to defend the realm from the threat from beyond the Wall, and not become involved in the internal wars of the realm. Aemon explains this and why this is in the passage I quoted above

That isn't the same as defending themselves. It has naught to do with the internal wars of the realms. The watch takes no part does not mean the watch cannot defend themselves from domestic enemies. 

2 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Jon understands what Aemon told him. He says it is not for the Watch to avenge Stannis or oppose Ramsay

Nor is that what makes Jon announce his decision to march on WF. He gives his reasons & it isn't to avenge Stannis or oppose Ramsay other than opposition to the threat to the NW itself. 

2 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

As such, Jon should comply with the demands in the letter and get on with defending the realm

He cannot comply with the demands. First & foremost he doesn't have fArya or Then to return to Ramsay, but secondly & most importantly, IMO, handing over people to Ramsay would be meddling in the matters of the realm. The NW is not Ramsay's personal army & Jon is not obligated to collect the people Ramsay is angry with & deliver them to him. 

2 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

However, Jon has decided that he will make Ramsay answer for his words (even though they are not Ramsay's words, but that is beside the point).

Yes, & his words were a direct threat to the NW. 

 

I agree they aren't Ramsay's words but for the sake of this discussion - since Jon believes they are, I think we can operate under that premise. 

2 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Jon knows this could well constitute forswearing his vows and that's why he looks for swords amongst the wildlings rather than his sworn brothers

Yeah, he thinks it might but I don't think it does. I don't think we have another situation where a Lord is threatening to attack the NW to compare & because of that grey area Jon does not ask his brothers to come along. 

 

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Certainly if Ramsay attacked Castle Black, then naturally the Watch would be expected to defend themselves against the attack, but theoretically this should not occur if the Watch take no part as Ramsay would have no reason to attack Castle Black

Well the watch didn't take any part & Ramsay is threatening to attack castle black. He has no reason to attack them now but as far as Jon knows is threatening just that. 

He is angry his "property" - fArya & Theon have been stolen from him, angry Stannis attacked, thinks maybe Theon & fArya fled to the wall but none of that constitutes the watch taking a part. I suppose if fArya was at the wall (Ramsay has no legal right to Theon) & Jon was protecting her it could be argued the watch was taking part but even then the marriage isn't legal, it isn't Arya, & the marriage was forced under false pretenses so I don't know that the watch would be under any obligation to throw fArya to the wolves, so to speak. 

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

If the Watch take no part and Ramsay attacks unprovoked, then the act of aggression is on Ramsay's part and the Watch would be fully justified in defending themselves

Isn't it smarter, strategically to take the fight to Ramsay, with the wildlings, to answer the threat than to wait for Ramsay to attack, forcing the NW to fight on both fronts? 

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Stannis answered the call against the wildlings, and if Stannis is there to defend the realm from further threats from beyond the Wall, then fine. Jon is justified in accommodating Stannis and his army

Agreed.

 

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

However, Stannis has another agenda too. Having defeated Mance, Stannis resumed his campaign for the Iron Throne, the first step of which is winning the North. The Watch should take no part in that, but Jon has repeatedly assisted Stannis in this matter. Advice about attacking the Dreadfort, or recruiting the northern clans to his cause. Informing Stannis that Arnulf Karstark is going to betray him. Jon clearly wants Stannis to win against the Boltons

Sure, he definitely wants Stannis to stand against the Bolton's & maybe I'm arguing semantics here but giving advice isn't necessarily against the rules. 

3 hours ago, three-eyed monkey said:

Jon could accept Stannis' offer, and he considered it plenty, but he always resisted the offer and upheld his vows much to Stannis' frustration. He was caught in a hard place between Winterfell and the Watch, family and duty, which is what Aemon warned him of, and felt he needed to choose duty. This is the central conflict Jon faced all through Dance, until he finally caved in when the pink letter came. Protecting Arya was a large part of his motive, but also the fact that he though Stannis was defeated and therefore his proxy war had ended, meaning he now had to fight the war against Ramsay overtly.

8 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Tbf, Cersei is a traitor. They would see him as a traitor regardless because he is Ned's son. 

There is nothing treasonous, IMO, in helping the only army that answered the call for help, to stay alive. Food, shelter, etc. This is what Jon gives them. 

Expand  

Objectively, I agree. Jon made this case in his letter to King's Landing. But from Cersei's point of view Jon is assisting her enemy.

8 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

He certainly had a choice. 

Bowen did have a choice. There comes a day when every man must choose, as Aemon said, and Bowen chose to take a side rather than take no part.

8 hours ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Ramsay threatened the NW. He threatened Jon directly. Jon did not involve himself in the politics of the realm, not when they have decimated his childhood home, not  when being told his sister was being married to this monster. He does nothing to move against Ramsay until Ramsay makes demands of the NW that cannot & should not be met & directly threatens the NW & Jon. 

Expand  

If Jon did nothing to move against the Bolton's then Stannis would have marched on the Dreadfort with his small army and whatever happened would have been no concern to Jon. That is not the case though.

I agree with you that the demands cannot and should not be met. This is part of the point. Honor is doing the right thing, not necessarily sticking to your duty for as we know there are many good men, like Barristan, sworn to bad causes like Aerys. And Jon always strives to do the right thing, and he strives to keep his oath, but sometimes these things come into conflict and that is the conflict he must learn to resolve.

I'm not dumping on Jon, or Bowen for that matter, I'm just explaining from my perspective how and why the characters find themselves in such a predicament

Quote isn't working right on my phone so I'll try to touch on all the points. 

I agree he would like to protect Arya but this isn't something he says or thinks when giving his reasons for marching on WF. He does not protect her, as much as he would like to, until Ramsay threatens the NW. Point being, it doesn't seem to be the urge to protect Arya that makes him cave but an opening in which he can kill two birds with one stone. 

Sure, Cersei's POV is always going to be that. I don't think she is justified in that thinking though.

No, I get that you aren't dumping on either & I understand where you are coming from. I agree it's a difficult position & there is lots of grey area there. I would have loved for Jon to forsake his vows to protect Arya the minute he knew of her situation, but he did not. I view this as a loophole of sorts. Jon did want to protect her, he doesn't want WF in the Bolton's hands, he does want Stannis to stand against them but he did not actively do any of that until he had a NW related reason to do so. 

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On 4/26/2022 at 5:49 PM, Rondo said:

Lord Commander Jon Snow betrayed the NW and dragged the ancient Brotherhood into conflict with Roose Bolton.  The immediate consequence is chaos within Castle Black.  This unrest will spread to the other forts on the wall and will lead to a divided Brotherhood.  While most will agree with Bowen Marsh, there will undoubtedly be some who will disagree with the assassination of their lord commander.  Regardless of how erratic and incompetent Jon was, he was their elected lord commander.  What will happen shortly after Jon takes his last breath:

  1. Wun the Giant will be killed but not without trouble.
  2. Bowen Marsh will take over as the interim Lord Commander.  He will organize Castle Black but the wildlings will not be placated.
  3. I do not think Bowen and the Brother will be able to stop the wildlings from leaving the castle to attack the Boltons.
  4. The Weeper and his people will come calling just when the castle is in disorder.

What else?

Immediate consequences will be a storm of swords between the brave men of the watch and the barbaric free folk.  Bowen Marsh may not survive the storm.  He knew and he willingly risks his life "for the watch" to remove his crazy lord commander Jon Snow.  The dangerous Jon Snow was killed to save the watch.  He had to be removed"for the watch" and by that, for the sake of humanity.  Bowen risks capital punishment to save the watch.  He did it for the watch to save mankind from Jon's bad decisions.  

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On 4/29/2022 at 12:04 AM, Darth Sidious said:

I don’t know what will happen to WW. What made him go all out nuts?  Patrek is not stupid enough to attack the giant. WW started that fight.  

Patrek of the Mountain is most definitely stupid.  He's one of the sycophants around Mel who has decided that marrying Val, "The Wildling Princess" will make him a powerful figure, as if the wildlings followed kneelers' rules.  Wun Wun is Val's protector and Patrek probably figured he could press his suit better by going around or most likely through Wun Wun and got educated otherwise.

2 hours ago, James West said:

Immediate consequences will be a storm of swords between the brave men of the watch and the barbaric free folk.  Bowen Marsh may not survive the storm.  He knew and he willingly risks his life "for the watch" to remove his crazy lord commander Jon Snow.

This kind of post baffles me.  Maybe my humour detector is off of course.  The story is ASOIAF not the story of The 300 or so men of the NW.  The Wildlings are not the enemy, the Others and the wights are.  Right before he died Mormont relayed to Sam that the NW had forgotten it's true purpose.  Marsh clearly didn't get the memo.  Jon has built a coalition to defend the Wall against the Others.  Marsh is doing his best to destroy that coalition.

3 hours ago, James West said:

The dangerous Jon Snow was killed to save the watch.  He had to be removed"for the watch" and by that, for the sake of humanity.  Bowen risks capital punishment to save the watchHe did it for the watch to save mankind from Jon's bad decisions.  

Yeah, he did it for the watch, based on his limited and flawed understanding of what the Watch was created to do.  He was wrong.  That was forgivable before The Others struck, unforgivable after.  His myopia and intransigence is why he's a quartermaster and is unfit for overall command.  Jon is actually working on saving mankind.  Allying with Stannis after the latter arrives is unavoidable - and highly beneficial.  Giving in to Ramsay's unmeetable demands is impossible.  Striking when threatened by Ramsay but using wildlings not NW keeps the NW out of it.  Bowen just reveals himself as a pawn of Cersei and the Boltons.

The NW at this moment in story is militarily insignificant and is not combat ready.  It lost it's fighting strength on The Fist of The First Men.  It needs allies which Stannis and The Wildlings provide.  I don't get this obsession with "For the Watch" even if there's only a few men left.  It's served it's purpose in holding the wall and giving warning until military power could finally come from the south to assist.  The least we could expect is that guys like Marsh not now screw everything up. Or that people cheer them on while they do it.

#Team Wun Wun

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