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Immediate consequences of Jon's betrayal of the NW


Rondo
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1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said:

I really feel sometimes like it's someone talking to themselves...

It is, sorta. It’s a handful of ‘someones’ talking among themselves, and it’s always the exact same talking points. I’m amazed that after a 2+ year absence, I find the exact same people, repeating the exact same things. I know, the lack of new material doesn’t help, but still… 

And let me make something perfectly clear, we all have our favourite characters and plots, and we root for them. That’s fine, that’s just as it should be.
Perhaps the lack of new material plays a part in the fandom in general dissecting the text to unimaginable lengths in an attempt to glean a wee bit more evidence or hints. But if you choose to ignore the text b/c it goes against your theories or ideas, you’ve already lost the argument IMO. 

I know the story won’t go exactly the way I’d like it to go, nor should it. It’s not my story, it’s Martin’s story. And he’s very careful and very deliberate, and also quite tricksy at times. But the story he is telling is also going to make sense, the characters’ arcs have to make sense. He’s not going to suddenly do an asspull just to shock readers. And while none of us can claim to know exactly where/how things will end, we should understand that the path for certain characters has been laid out from the start, and to expect something wildly different for these characters is a fool’s errand, again, IMO. 

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46 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

It is, sorta. It’s a handful of ‘someones’ talking among themselves, and it’s always the exact same talking points. I’m amazed that after a 2+ year absence, I find the exact same people, repeating the exact same things. I know, the lack of new material doesn’t help, but still… 

It's not just the opinions I find identical, but the flow of the writing, the phrases used...

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20 minutes ago, Rondo said:

The amount of people  defending Jon is amusing.  I remember criticizing Arya and got the same lame defense.  

Hey if you're on the side of Ramsay a guy who loves raping, torturing and murdering people for his own amusement, over Jon...............well that says more about you, than most sane people.

Edited by sifth
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59 minutes ago, Rondo said:

The amount of people  defending Jon is amusing.  I remember criticizing Arya and got the same lame defense.  

People defend Jon because the text shows us who Bowen is and who Jon is.
 

Bowen is a coward who wants to side w/ the winner, even if the winner is someone like Tywin Lannister, or Roose Bolton, or even Ramsay Effing Bolton. If Bowen had been in charge when Mance attacked, they’d all be dead anyway, b/c he wanted to hide atop the Wall and wait for a miracle. 
Bowen wants to let thousands die b/c he’s a coward who doesn’t want to risk upsetting anyone/the status quo, and doesn’t want to share food or spend resources trying to help others; ‘let them die’.

Jon on the other hand wants to do the right thing, even if that means disobeying some dumb ancient custom. He understands that doing the right thing may go against the status quo, and is fine with that - and he is of course right. And he doesn’t want to do the right thing only b/c he is a good person but he also understands that thousands of people left north of the Wall means thousands of people who will be wightified and come for them and everyone else. 
Does Jon makes mistakes? Of course. As do literally every other character. But not intentionally or out of malice, so that’s another check mark in the right column. 

 

The fact that some readers will defend Bowen, Tywin, Roose, and Ramsay just b/c they hate a fictional character is baffling and says more about these readers than it does about Jon. And while this type of ‘take’ on the story has always been there, the abomination made everything worse, especially w/ that hideously bad ending. B/c now these readers who hate Jon b/c they love Dany - and I will never ever understand this one, like, you can love one w/o hating the other or even like both! - have added the murder of Dany to their list of Jon’s unforgivable sins. 

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Jon didn't just make mistakes.  He created a big problem.  He directly caused a fight between the Nights Watch, which should remain neutral, and the Boltons.  It was not Jon's business what happens to Arya after he took the Black.  Arya is a piece of the past which should have been forgotten.  That was the cause of all the bad things Jon did at the wall.  Arya and the Starks were on his thoughts.  He killed Slynt to satisfy revenge.  He attacked the Boltons when he sent Mance for Arya.  Bowen bashing is unjustified.  Bowen had to stop Jon and killing him was the only thing he could do. 

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21 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Accounts, not people

FTFY

I'll be charitable and say it's a meme at this point so a few people parrot the same in-joke.  A meme isn't meant to be debated, just repeated for amusement, so whatever other people post to refute it is irrelevant and a little later the meme gets repeated.  Trying to rationally and patiently deconstruct the meme just keeps the cycle going.

"For the Watch" is the new "For Stannis the Mannis!".  I never got that either but some people really adopted it big time.

57 minutes ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Jon didn't just make mistakes.  He created a big problem.  He directly caused a fight between the Nights Watch, which should remain neutral, and the Boltons.  It was not Jon's business what happens to Arya after he took the Black.  Arya is a piece of the past which should have been forgotten.  That was the cause of all the bad things Jon did at the wall.  Arya and the Starks were on his thoughts.  He killed Slynt to satisfy revenge.  He attacked the Boltons when he sent Mance for Arya.  Bowen bashing is unjustified.  Bowen had to stop Jon and killing him was the only thing he could do. 

Rather like this.  It's the exact same argument, really the same sound bite.  It will fade eventually like "For Stannis!".

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1 hour ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

He killed Slynt to satisfy revenge. 

He killed him for insubordination. We can see into his own thoughts when he killed him. It was because he refused direct orders like 3 times and was plotting with Ser Aliser, undermining Jon's authority.

1 hour ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Bowen bashing is unjustified. 

Actually, it is justified, because he is being criticised for valid reasons.

1 hour ago, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Bowen had to stop Jon and killing him was the only thing he could do.

He didn't 'have' to stop Jon. He chose to. Because he could not get over his bigotry.

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5 minutes ago, the trees have eyes said:

"For the Watch" is the new "For Stannis the Mannis!".  I never got that either but some people really adopted it big time.

I wasn't here when that was at its peak but I do remember reading posts to that effect. There was some odd mental gymnastics going on where people claimed Renly was more guilty that Stannis when it came to kinslaying, even though, regardless of your opinion on the characters and who was justified etc. at the end of the day it was Stannis who killed Renly/had him killed/allowed his subordinates to kill him. So I can't see  logical reason that Renly could ever be more guilty than Stannis. Because he is dead and Stannis is not.

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On 10/19/2022 at 4:50 AM, sifth said:

The amount of people here siding with Bowen and Ramsay is amusing. 

People like turncoats and r***ists, it appears. 

On 10/20/2022 at 3:19 AM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Bowen bashing is unjustified.

I'm sorry. Please excuse me while I laugh my lungs out.  :rofl::lmao::bs::bang::lmao:

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Immediate Consequences of Jon's Birth

In an act of utter selfishness, Jon Snow was born. This has caused nothing but trouble for the Watch and the people of Westeros. Bowen Marsh was doing Jon's own work for him. Snowhead should have had the grace to refuse to be born and saved everyone a lot of bother.

 

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On 10/20/2022 at 3:49 PM, The Lord of the Crossing said:

Bowen bashing is unjustified.

Are you for real?

 

2 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

People like turncoats and r***ists, it appears. 

I'm sorry. Please excuse me while I laugh my lungs out.  :rofl::lmao::bs::bang::lmao:

Oh I need a million more emoticons

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On 4/26/2022 at 5:49 PM, Rondo said:

Lord Commander Jon Snow betrayed the NW and dragged the ancient Brotherhood into conflict with Roose Bolton.  The immediate consequence is chaos within Castle Black.  This unrest will spread to the other forts on the wall and will lead to a divided Brotherhood.  While most will agree with Bowen Marsh, there will undoubtedly be some who will disagree with the assassination of their lord commander.  Regardless of how erratic and incompetent Jon was, he was their elected lord commander.  What will happen shortly after Jon takes his last breath:

  1. Wun the Giant will be killed but not without trouble.
  2. Bowen Marsh will take over as the interim Lord Commander.  He will organize Castle Black but the wildlings will not be placated.
  3. I do not think Bowen and the Brother will be able to stop the wildlings from leaving the castle to attack the Boltons.
  4. The Weeper and his people will come calling just when the castle is in disorder.

What else?

It is an injustice to W Wun.  He is innocent if his mind was under the control of a skinchanger. 

Edited by Kierria
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