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Immediate consequences of Jon's betrayal of the NW


Rondo
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4 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Jon’s plan to lead the Wildlings to battle Roose Bolton is illegal. While the Wildlings could care less, the Nights Watch and any law-abiding people would condemn such an act. It is not the purpose of the watch to help Jon fight the Starks’ political enemies.

I was talking about Jon trying to mend things between the NW & the wildlings & you said Jon ruined all that by announcing he wants to march on WF. If you agree the wildlings couldn't careless then why did you say that? 

Funny because there are quite a few law abiding people that agree with the decision. Ramsay is not law abiding, the very marriage through which he holds WF is illegal. 

 

7 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

It doesn’t matter who came up with the idea

Sure it does. It wasn't a plan Jon came up with or enacted. Why would that not matter? 

8 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Jon is the lord commander

Mel is not a member of the NW so he is not her LC. Neither is he Mance's LC anymore as Mance is Stan & Mel's man. 

 

9 minutes ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Mel had the idea. Jon made plans and ordered his man to carry out the dirty deed.  

Lol! It was Mance & the spearwives (none of which are Jon's men) that carried out Mel's plan. Jon made no plan. Please quote the plans he made. His single effort was sending men to Moles town to get the spearwives. 

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12 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Jon’s plan to lead the Wildlings to battle Roose Bolton is illegal.

I love the notion that the word illegal so often gets attached to warfare. It's so disingenuous it just makes me laugh. Like you have to present a properly filled out and notarized stack of paperwork before the slaughter can begin. 

wait this form was dated for YESTERDAY! This is an illegal attack! 

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On 5/2/2022 at 2:54 PM, Moiraine Sedai said:

At least this is an acknowledgment that Jon did not stay true to the vows. 
 

I am reading between the lines in the novels. Jon was bitter that the Boltons now hold the North. He deliberately wanted to cause trouble for the Karstarks because they abandoned Robb. However, did he not consider that they did this because Robb killed Lord Karstark?  
 

He sided with Stannis for many reasons. One of which is the friendship between his father and Robert. For another, he wanted the Boltons to go down. 
 

It all comes down to family for Jon. Unlike the other men on the wall, Jon could not become impartial. The other men were successful in leaving behind family allegiances. It’s required for men of all backgrounds to leave those behind in order for the watch to stay true to its purpose. His arc followed the same as Arya’s. Their strong bond to the Stark pack identity kept them from serving their organizations. 

There is nothing admirable about remaining neutral in the face of evil.

J. S. Mill put it well:

”Let no one think it sufficient that he takes no part and forms no opinion. All that is needed for bad men to compass their ends is that good men look on and do nothing.”

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On 5/4/2022 at 4:05 AM, SeanF said:

There is nothing admirable about remaining neutral in the face of evil.

J. S. Mill put it well:

”Let no one think it sufficient that he takes no part and forms no opinion. All that is needed for bad men to compass their ends is that good men look on and do nothing.”

Valid, but sadly disproportionately misused to the point where painting the other side as evil has been used to sell countless wars of aggression as necessary since WWII. 

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On 4/26/2022 at 5:49 PM, Rondo said:

Lord Commander Jon Snow betrayed the NW and dragged the ancient Brotherhood into conflict with Roose Bolton.  The immediate consequence is chaos within Castle Black.  This unrest will spread to the other forts on the wall and will lead to a divided Brotherhood.  While most will agree with Bowen Marsh, there will undoubtedly be some who will disagree with the assassination of their lord commander.  Regardless of how erratic and incompetent Jon was, he was their elected lord commander.  What will happen shortly after Jon takes his last breath:

  1. Wun the Giant will be killed but not without trouble.
  2. Bowen Marsh will take over as the interim Lord Commander.  He will organize Castle Black but the wildlings will not be placated.
  3. I do not think Bowen and the Brother will be able to stop the wildlings from leaving the castle to attack the Boltons.
  4. The Weeper and his people will come calling just when the castle is in disorder.

What else?

Bowen and his brothers should not even attempt to stop the wildlings.  Let them leave without much trouble and send a warning to Ramsay as soon as they are gone.  The message should get to Ramsay before the wildlings show up at his gates.  Send several letters because each bird can only carry so much.  One should point the blame to Jon for causing trouble.  The second letter should warn of the wildlings coming to attack. 

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Jon should have kept his nose clean.  He should have never been voted into a command position.  A guy like that should be kept low in the ranks.  That way, when he shirks his duties, the damage will be minimal.  Jon is the last person you and I would want to rule over anybody.  It's not him.  He would be better off running away and marrying Arya then live in exile as husband and wife.  

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Marsh can avoid a wildling riot by simply not standing in their way when they leave for Winterfell.  He is duty-bound to stop them but he lacks the men to fight them.  Let them leave and he can do the next best thing.  Warn Ramsay that a wildling army is about to attack him. 

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I don't see how it could end other than with the Wildlings taking over the wall. Don't they outnumber the Night's Watch by some distance?

I imagine Melissandre plays a role in keeping Jon's body intact. I don't think she gives up her belief the way she does in the show. I reckon in the books she's become convinced by now that Jon is the true saviour, not Stannis. So my guess is her and the wildlings take control of Jon's body and probably put it in an ice cell to preserve it.

Meanwhile Jon's consciousness is in Ghost who, as far as I remember, is still locked in Jon's quarters. Maybe Melissandre releases him. What does he do then? No idea. I don't see how there's anywhere for Ghost-Jon to go other than to stay with the wildlings.

Meanwhile I think Stannis takes Winterfell, but goes gradually more insane and eventually becomes what Dany saw in her vision.

Maybe Melissandre sacrifices Shireen to try and bring Jon back?

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23 hours ago, Roswell said:

Marsh can avoid a wildling riot by simply not standing in their way when they leave for Winterfell.  He is duty-bound to stop them but he lacks the men to fight them.  Let them leave and he can do the next best thing.  Warn Ramsay that a wildling army is about to attack him. 

How is he duty bound to stop them? 

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Jon’s consciousness will take refuge in Ghost after his body ceases to function. His consciousness will return to the body after the Others animates the dead.  Jon will be a wight with his consciousness and mind in the body. Just like Coldhands.  

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I do not think the Pink Letter was bs.  It is basically the truth from someone like Ramsay.  

The Crows will support Bowen's decision because it was the only one he had.  He had to act quickly to at least try to stop the raid.  He can't stop them all but he can stop the man who swore to not get involved in such matters.

 

 

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On 4/26/2022 at 5:49 PM, Rondo said:

Lord Commander Jon Snow betrayed the NW and dragged the ancient Brotherhood into conflict with Roose Bolton.  The immediate consequence is chaos within Castle Black.  This unrest will spread to the other forts on the wall and will lead to a divided Brotherhood.  While most will agree with Bowen Marsh, there will undoubtedly be some who will disagree with the assassination of their lord commander.  Regardless of how erratic and incompetent Jon was, he was their elected lord commander.  What will happen shortly after Jon takes his last breath:

  1. Wun the Giant will be killed but not without trouble.
  2. Bowen Marsh will take over as the interim Lord Commander.  He will organize Castle Black but the wildlings will not be placated.
  3. I do not think Bowen and the Brother will be able to stop the wildlings from leaving the castle to attack the Boltons.
  4. The Weeper and his people will come calling just when the castle is in disorder.

What else?

The Wildlings will do as they wish and ride to the south to confront Ramsay and Roose.  Wildlings are not law-abiding people.  They do as they please.  Our hope then is for them to run into trouble before they get too far.  We don't want them to stir up more chaos in Westeros. 

Bowen Marsh will need to assure the people of Westeros that the Watch will observe the laws of neutrality and it will not interfere with politics.  Only then can he save the watch from Jon's wreckless decisions. 

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On 5/15/2022 at 11:51 PM, SeanBeanedMeUp said:

I think regardless of what happens Shireen Baratheon might die in the chaotic aftermath. Some NW members thinking killing her and her mother would satisfy Ramsay assuming they see the letter about Ramsay claiming to kill Stannis.

Mellisandre and Val are the ones who are evil enough to murder Shireen.  The NW members are good people for the most part.  

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12 hours ago, Wm Portnoy said:

The Wildlings will do as they wish and ride to the south to confront Ramsay and Roose.  Wildlings are not law-abiding people.  They do as they please.  Our hope then is for them to run into trouble before they get too far.  We don't want them to stir up more chaos in Westeros. 

Bowen Marsh will need to assure the people of Westeros that the Watch will observe the laws of neutrality and it will not interfere with politics.  Only then can he save the watch from Jon's wreckless decisions. 

Yes, let's not let the horrible wildlings bother the lovely Ramsay. Certainly don't want them to take WF from him, that he holds illegally & by deceit, else it may cause problems in peaceful Westeros. 

I'm sure the rest of the NW will be so ever greatful for the heroic acts of mutiny & murder by  Bowen that they will just immediately elect him LC. After he assures the rest of Westeros they will probably elect him king. 

 

 Seriously, where do you come up with this stuff? 

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2 hours ago, Rondo said:

Mellisandre and Val are the ones who are evil enough to murder Shireen.  The NW members are good people for the most part.  

To be fair, most of the NW are criminals given the option of the axe, some other dismemberment or The Watch.  I'm personally rather glad Rorge and Biter didn't make it but they were en route with Yoren.  They are not noble or glamorous.  Tyrion dispelled those illusions for Jon before he even reached The Wall.

12 hours ago, Wm Portnoy said:

The Wildlings will do as they wish and ride to the south to confront Ramsay and Roose.  Wildlings are not law-abiding people.  They do as they please.  Our hope then is for them to run into trouble before they get too far.  We don't want them to stir up more chaos in Westeros.

Bowen Marsh will need to assure the people of Westeros that the Watch will observe the laws of neutrality and it will not interfere with politics.  Only then can he save the watch from Jon's wreckless decisions. 

I feel I have to point out the obvious: Ramsay is a sadistic murderer who skins the corpses of the women he rapes, if he doesn't skin them alive.  Roose himself casually recounts how he raped Ramsay's mother right after he hanged her husband simply because he wanted to and that seemed the easiest way to proceed.  So who is law-abiding and who does as they please?

The North is already in the middle of a war between Stannis and the Boltons.

This isn't about saving the NW, all 200 of them, as some kind of pristine and totemic institution, it's about saving the realms of men from The Others.  Jon is forging along the second path, Marsh only seems capable of seeing the first.

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4 hours ago, the trees have eyes said:

To be fair, most of the NW are criminals given the option of the axe, some other dismemberment or The Watch.  I'm personally rather glad Rorge and Biter didn't make it but they were en route with Yoren.  They are not noble or glamorous.  Tyrion dispelled those illusions for Jon before he even reached The Wall.

I feel I have to point out the obvious: Ramsay is a sadistic murderer who skins the corpses of the women he rapes, if he doesn't skin them alive.  Roose himself casually recounts how he raped Ramsay's mother right after he hanged her husband simply because he wanted to and that seemed the easiest way to proceed.  So who is law-abiding and who does as they please?

The North is already in the middle of a war between Stannis and the Boltons.

This isn't about saving the NW, all 200 of them, as some kind of pristine and totemic institution, it's about saving the realms of men from The Others.  Jon is forging along the second path, Marsh only seems capable of seeing the first.

Thanks for this.  Sometimes I wonder if people are reading the same books :D.  The whole point of Jon's arc in the NW is that the actuality of the conditions of the NW don't match the ideals.  While in the past there may have been a ton of chivalrous knights committed to defending the realm of men from the White Walkers, over time the institution has become corrupted and forgotten its true purpose as the White Walkers disappeared.  Most of the NW are criminals or bitter, defeated old men.  Tyrion and several others are quick to notice this right away.  While Marsh is a decent steward, he is described as somebody only good at counting things and is mocked as the Old Pomegranate.  In fact in Jon's very last chapter he notes how the Shield Hall used to be filled with the shields of noble lords and families who served this great institution but now the Hall is basically empty.  

It always makes me laugh when the "law and order" crew jumps to the Boltons' defense.  Because when I think law and order I think of Red Wedding, hunting and raping women for sport, forcibly marrying a noblewoman and then locking her in a tower forcing her to eat her own fingers to fend off starvation for just a little bit longer, and finally claiming Winterfell under false pretenses by pretending Jeyne Poole is Arya Stark.  

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2 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

Thanks for this.  Sometimes I wonder if people are reading the same books :D.  The whole point of Jon's arc in the NW is that the actuality of the conditions of the NW don't match the ideals.  While in the past there may have been a ton of chivalrous knights committed to defending the realm of men from the White Walkers, over time the institution has become corrupted and forgotten its true purpose as the White Walkers disappeared.  Most of the NW are criminals or bitter, defeated old men.  Tyrion and several others are quick to notice this right away.  While Marsh is a decent steward, he is described as somebody only good at counting things and is mocked as the Old Pomegranate.  In fact in Jon's very last chapter he notes how the Shield Hall used to be filled with the shields of noble lords and families who served this great institution but now the Hall is basically empty.  

It always makes me laugh when the "law and order" crew jumps to the Boltons' defense.  Because when I think law and order I think of Red Wedding, hunting and raping women for sport, forcibly marrying a noblewoman and then locking her in a tower forcing her to eat her own fingers to fend off starvation for just a little bit longer, and finally claiming Winterfell under false pretenses by pretending Jeyne Poole is Arya Stark.  

I mean it is rather interesting when people accuse Jon of being a traitor, and scheming against the Warden of the North, but ignore the fact, that both the Warden of the North and his son are sociopaths.

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22 hours ago, sifth said:

I mean it is rather interesting when people accuse Jon of being a traitor, and scheming against the Warden of the North, but ignore the fact, that both the Warden of the North and his son are sociopaths.

It goes so far beyond that too.  It's not just that they're sociopaths, it's that they're sociopaths with  no rightful/legal claim to even be Warden of the North in the first place :D.  Their claim to power is based on a series of lies and fabrications, that if exposed would completely nullify any legality to their position.  They were given the title Warden of the North by a false King, a Lannister bastard masquerading as a Baratheon.  It's an open secret that they participated in the unlawful murder of their previous Warden of the North Robb Stark during the Red Wedding.  They've further added to the lies by masquerading Jeyne Poole as Arya Stark to fabricate a claim to Winterfell.

So it's always hilarious to read these anti-Jon threads where Jon gets criticized for "breaking the law" by rebelling against the Boltons.  

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