NFL - 2022 Draft and Onward

[Kalbear]

I think the rush to get rid of Mayfield is because he is not worth anything to the Browns at this point; he wouldn't be playing even if Watson isn't coming back due to how they've burned that bridge. 

And everyone knows it. So the only value he has is in how much other people would want him. 

That said, oof. 

[Kalbear]

Also, oof:

 

[briantw]

15 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

Also, oof:

 

I remember that scouting report that said that Darnold had a bad face and I have to say...that scout was 100% on point.

[dbunting]

1 hour ago, KalVsWade said:

Also, oof:

 

I'd say Mayfield was 3rd on that list. He was a fine starting QB before getting injured last season and playing hurt. Him playing hurt probably drastically altered things for the Browns. If he had surgery and missed the rest of the season he goes out on a relatively high note(?)(think he was playing ok before the injury) Do the Browns still target Watson as highly and do the Browns get more in return since Mayfield wouldn't have looked as bad as he did the rest of the season?

I couldn't care less about the Browns than I do now. I hope Mayfield gets to play against them and has the best game of his career and plants a flag at midfield. After that he can fade away.

[briantw]

10 minutes ago, dbunting said:

I'd say Mayfield was 3rd on that list. He was a fine starting QB before getting injured last season and playing hurt. Him playing hurt probably drastically altered things for the Browns. If he had surgery and missed the rest of the season he goes out on a relatively high note(?)(think he was playing ok before the injury) Do the Browns still target Watson as highly and do the Browns get more in return since Mayfield wouldn't have looked as bad as he did the rest of the season?

I couldn't care less about the Browns than I do now. I hope Mayfield gets to play against them and has the best game of his career and plants a flag at midfield. After that he can fade away.

Personally, I think that Andrew Berry and Kevin Stefanski were never fully sold on Baker Mayfield.  He was the guy they inherited, and I know Stefanski had to simplify his playbook a bit to make it something that Mayfield could effectively run.  And he did a really good job of that, as the offense was great in 2020 and Mayfield wasn't asked to do much more than roll right to extend plays off of play action or hand the ball off to Nick Chubb and Kareem Hunt.  

All told, though, Mayfield has had one very good season where he was a borderline top ten QB (2020), one okay season where he had some flashes but threw a lot of picks (rookie year), and two seasons where he was a bottom ten quarterback in the NFL (second year w/ Kitchens, last year).  Is that the guy that, if you're an NFL GM / coach where job security is nonexistent and you're always a year away from being fired, you're comfortable betting your career on?  

Mayfield also basically had everything going for him in 2020.  Two former all-pro WRs, a top three offensive line, the absolute best RB room in the NFL, good TEs...that's a hell of a situation for any QB to step into.  It's unlikely he ever has it that good again.

[dbunting]

6 minutes ago, briantw said:

Personally, I think that Andrew Berry and Kevin Stefanski were never fully sold on Baker Mayfield.  He was the guy they inherited, and I know Stefanski had to simplify his playbook a bit to make it something that Mayfield could effectively run.  And he did a really good job of that, as the offense was great in 2020 and Mayfield wasn't asked to do much more than roll right to extend plays off of play action or hand the ball off to Nick Chubb and Kareem Hunt.  

All told, though, Mayfield has had one very good season where he was a borderline top ten QB (2020), one okay season where he had some flashes but threw a lot of picks (rookie year), and two seasons where he was a bottom ten quarterback in the NFL (second year w/ Kitchens, last year).  Is that the guy that, if you're an NFL GM / coach where job security is nonexistent and you're always a year away from being fired, you're comfortable betting your career on?  

Mayfield also basically had everything going for him in 2020.  Two former all-pro WRs, a top three offensive line, the absolute best RB room in the NFL, good TEs...that's a hell of a situation for any QB to step into.  It's unlikely he ever has it that good again.

Can't blame him for Kitchens ineptitude and last year Mayfield was playing hurt. So other than those two seasons you say he was a top 10 QB, who was on your roster already and probably could've signed relatively cheap for a QB after proving it this season. Instead they traded away 3 num 1 picks and 230mill fully guaranteed to acquire his replacement, who likely won't play at all this season, his second consecutive season of not playing, Who knows when he will play again, and you had to pay Mayfield to leave. 

Who would I rather have, Watson of course, but not at that cost, and not with what he has done.

Now if Mayfield lost the locker room then yeah you have to dump him regardless.

[briantw]

3 minutes ago, dbunting said:

Can't blame him for Kitchens ineptitude and last year Mayfield was playing hurt. So other than those two seasons you say he was a top 10 QB, who was on your roster already and probably could've signed relatively cheap for a QB after proving it this season. Instead they traded away 3 num 1 picks and 230mill fully guaranteed to acquire his replacement, who likely won't play at all this season, his second consecutive season of not playing, Who knows when he will play again, and you had to pay Mayfield to leave. 

Who would I rather have, Watson of course, but not at that cost, and not with what he has done.

Now if Mayfield lost the locker room then yeah you have to dump him regardless.

Sure, you can't blame Mayfield for Kitchens' ineptitude, but how many QBs have we seen over the years continue to perform with bad coaches and in bad situations?  If you're good, you're good regardless.  If you're only as good as your team can make you, then you're a game manager and inherently replaceable.

Now, did the Browns replace Mayfield with the right guy?  Of course not.  They traded for a scumbag.  I do think it's very premature to say he probably won't play this year, though.  I think it's more likely he's not suspended at all at this point than it is that he doesn't play in 2022.  Remember that, if the independent arbiter chosen by the NFL and NFLPA rules no suspension, the NFL can't overrule it.  

Also, Mayfield definitely did lose the locker room last year.  It very much felt like the team turned on him after OBJ was forced out of town.  It would have been one thing if OBJ still looked washed in LA, but he looked quite a bit better there with Stafford throwing to him.  He definitely wasn't prime Giants OBJ, but he looked a hell of a lot better than he ever did in Cleveland, outside of that one game where he predictably torched the Cowboys at least.

[DireWolfSpirit]

Cleveland's franchise is in smoldering ruins.

[dbunting]

2 hours ago, briantw said:

Also, Mayfield definitely did lose the locker room last year.  It very much felt like the team turned on him after OBJ was forced out of town.  It would have been one thing if OBJ still looked washed in LA, but he looked quite a bit better there with Stafford throwing to him.  He definitely wasn't prime Giants OBJ, but he looked a hell of a lot better than he ever did in Cleveland, outside of that one game where he predictably torched the Cowboys at least.

Probably a typo but didn't OBJ force his way out, not the other way around? I thought he had his dad make some comments that he knew could only end one way.

I don't disagree on Mayfields' talent, I think he has been top 15-20 at his best, a middling QB. But he was the best they have had, won their first playoff game in a couple decades and I just think he got a raw deal from a team that has a history of screwing things up. I was actually rooting for them 2 years ago maybe that's why this burns me up, actually rooted for them.

[briantw]

1 hour ago, dbunting said:

Probably a typo but didn't OBJ force his way out, not the other way around? I thought he had his dad make some comments that he knew could only end one way.

I don't disagree on Mayfields' talent, I think he has been top 15-20 at his best, a middling QB. But he was the best they have had, won their first playoff game in a couple decades and I just think he got a raw deal from a team that has a history of screwing things up. I was actually rooting for them 2 years ago maybe that's why this burns me up, actually rooted for them.

Personally, I find the argument that Cleveland should stick with Mayfield because he’s the best QB they’ve had in twenty years to be childish and insulting.  Who cares?  He’s still, at the end of the day, average at best.  The current Browns’ front office shouldn’t base their decision to keep Mayfield on twenty years of terrible Browns front office decisions prior to them taking over.  That’s absurd. 
 

With OBJ, my point was that that Browns were forced essentially to pick between him and Mayfield.  They chose their QB over their WR, as any team would, but I think the locker room resented Mayfield for being so incapable of getting the ball to OBJ that it got to that point. 
 

2 hours ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

Cleveland's franchise is in smoldering ruins.

I mean, they’re going to eat, at most, an eight game suspension for Watson and then he’s arguably the best QB in the AFC North for the next five to ten years. There’s a moral argument against Watson, to be sure, but he’s not going to be suspended past this year and the decision to trade for him from a football standpoint will be judged years down the line, if not more. 

[DireWolfSpirit]

I was under the assumption Watson would be suspended for much more than 8 games?

People were spitballing stuff like indefinite or permanent ban, I mean Ray Rice never played again did he?

If it's a half season than that's a different story for sure.

[briantw]

8 minutes ago, DireWolfSpirit said:

I was under the assumption Watson would be suspended for much more than 8 games?

People were spitballing stuff like indefinite or permanent ban, I mean Ray Rice never played again did he?

If it's a half season than that's a different story for sure.

There is quite literally zero percent chance of the NFL permanently banning a player who hasn't been convicted of any crimes.  The union would fight it and they would win.

Ray Rice's career was over not because he punched his wife, but because he crossed the Ravens' ownership.  He leaked text messages between himself and ownership and that, combined with the fact that he was in his late twenties and no longer good enough to be worth the headache, got him blackballed.  If Ray Rice were prime Adrian Peterson, he'd have been on another team a week later.  Just ask AP himself, who beat the living fuck out of his kid, didn't deny it, served a suspension, and then got to have a Frank Gore ending to his career, running up the middle for three yard gains until he finally decided to hang it up.

I think the mistake you're making is confusing what the NFL says they want to the press with what they actually care about.  The NFL is going to make a big song and dance about wanting an indefinite suspension so that, when the arbiter suggests eight games, they can say, "Well, we lobbied for more, but we don't want to overrule the arbiter on her first case."

This is all a PR game and has been from the beginning from the NFL.  They don't give a fuck about what Watson did, and have at least one owner accused of far worse who they haven't punished at all, but they do have to pretend to care in the media.

[briantw]

I'll also note that, if the arbiter recommends a suspension, I can pretty much guarantee that, the next day, the NFL and Watson agree to a six to eight game suspension with the agreement that he won't appeal.  I think six games might be more likely, simply because the Browns play the Bengals on MNF in week seven and I think the NFL cares more about that than they do about sexual assault. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

50 minutes ago, briantw said:

I mean, they’re going to eat, at most, an eight game suspension for Watson and then he’s arguably the best QB in the AFC North for the next five to ten years. There’s a moral argument against Watson, to be sure, but he’s not going to be suspended past this year and the decision to trade for him from a football standpoint will be judged years down the line, if not more. 

I think you're wrong on both counts. He's not arguably the best QB, he's the third best QB right now. Even setting the off the field issues aside I think most people would rather have Burrow and Jackson over him. I sure as shit would. And the Steelers won't be down for long. 

And "at most" is super optimistic. 

34 minutes ago, briantw said:

There is quite literally zero percent chance of the NFL permanently banning a player who hasn't been convicted of any crimes.  The union would fight it and they would win.

They can literally put him on the exempt list for life and Cleveland gets to fight it out in court, which they'll lose. And then they'll probably also be stuck paying him every penny they shortsightedly signed him for. Extremely unlikely, but it's what should happen.

[Nictarion]

43 minutes ago, briantw said:

I mean, they’re going to eat, at most, an eight game suspension for Watson and then he’s arguably the best QB in the AFC North for the next five to ten years.

Burrow just went to the Super Bowl in his first full season (behind a terrible OL - which they have now addressed), and Lamar already has an MVP. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Just now, Nictarion said:

Burrow just went to the Super Bowl in his first full season (behind a terrible OL - which they have now addressed), and Lamar already has an MVP. 

 

 

[Kalbear]

Ray Rice didn't play again because he was at that point not a good rb. And who the fuck cares about standing up for a not good rb? 

If it was Tom Brady he'd have been back in like 4 games. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

6 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

If it was Tom Brady he'd have been back in like 4 games. 

I don't think the GOAT would have gotten just 4 games, and Watson is far from that. 

Also, this is worth keeping in mind, the biggest motivating factor in Goodell's decision making process is what will please at least 75% of the owners. This is true in the NBA and MLB as well. His main job really is to be a vote whip, meat shield and negotiate TV deals which he personally doesn't do anyways. And guess what, the owners for the most part are all fucking pissed off to high hell at the Browns for giving Watson that contract. Spite, not morality, is what might ultimately cost him the next season.

[briantw]

55 minutes ago, Nictarion said:

Burrow just went to the Super Bowl in his first full season (behind a terrible OL - which they have now addressed), and Lamar already has an MVP. 

That's why I said arguably.  Watson is a really good QB, and easily top ten in the NFL.  He could absolutely be the best QB in the division in two years.  Will he be?  I have no idea.  But to pretend it's not possible because Burrow went to the Super Bowl last year on a last place schedule when Cleveland and Baltimore missed the playoffs while riddled with injuries or because Lamar won an MVP like three years ago is silly.  

[Nictarion]

1 minute ago, briantw said:

That's why I said arguably.  Watson is a really good QB, and easily top ten in the NFL.  He could absolutely be the best QB in the division in two years.  Will he be?  I have no idea.  But to pretend it's not possible because Burrow went to the Super Bowl last year on a last place schedule when Cleveland and Baltimore missed the playoffs while riddled with injuries or because Lamar won an MVP like three years ago is silly.  

I didn’t say it wasn’t possible, I just don’t think it’s very likely. For one - it’s the Browns. They will find a way to screw it up. And also Burrow is only going to get better now that they’ve addressed their one glaring weakness. We literally have 2 #1 WR’s, plus a very good #3 in Tyler Boyd. And honestly - Hayden Hurst is an upgrade over CJ Uzomah in the passing game (still love you man). Burrow could realistically put up monster numbers in this offense.

As far as the injury excuse? The Browns  weren’t doing anything in the playoffs even with a healthy Baker anyway, and the Bengals absolutely destroyed the Ravens in their first matchup before the rash of injuries even happened. They were just flat out the better team with the addition of Chase.