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NFL - 2022 Draft and Onward


Maithanet
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Why bring up the record if you know QB wins is one of the dumbest stats in the NFL? I have to agree with @James Arryn, Kaep wasn't an elite QB at that point, but he was very clearly a starter and as mentioned he was in an incredibly shitty situation. The difference between Kaep and Watson is simple, the former stood up to authority, and the white NFL owners were not okay with a black man doing that while the latter serially abused women, which the owners are fine with because they're guilty of that too.

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4 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Why bring up the record if you know QB wins is one of the dumbest stats in the NFL? I have to agree with @James Arryn, Kaep wasn't an elite QB at that point, but he was very clearly a starter and as mentioned he was in an incredibly shitty situation.

Because of exactly what I said, twice.  The Niners sucked, all involved were indeed in a shitty situation, and it made sense for ShanaLynch to release/move on from Kaep when they did.

The decision was clearly independent of his kneeling, and it's revisionist history to claim that's why ShanaLynch dumped him.

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14 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I don't buy that it was independent of his kneeling. And wow, just looking at his record, 2019 and a 5 game run in 2017 really help Kyle from having a truly awful winning %. 

You’d have a point if we hadn’t played the 2021 season.  He did a helluva job adjusting his offense and turning that entire season around.

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10 minutes ago, Rhom said:

You’d have a point if we hadn’t played the 2021 season.  He did a helluva job adjusting his offense and turning that entire season around.

Fun thing about the Niners this season, they could go 5-12 or 12-5 and I'd believe it. 

11 minutes ago, DMC said:

The Niners/ShanaLynch picked up Eric Reid's option at basically the exact time Kaep opted out.  He subsequently lost his job to Tartt in 2017, but the implication that ShanaLynch made personnel decisions based on the kneeling is obviously false.

It's hard to argue they moved on from him for 100% football reasons. It seems silly to argue otherwise, and I say that as someone who might have moved on from him too because it may not have been worth it to keep him, but do not act like they got a better QB to replace him.

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17 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

It seems silly to argue otherwise, and I say that as someone who might have moved on from him too because it may not have been worth it to keep him, but do not act like they got a better QB to replace him.

It's clearly not silly to argue otherwise if simply for the reason you yourself provided in this quote.  And I never said anything remotely suggesting they got a better QB to replace him, cliched strawman there.

Obviously, Shanahan wasn't sure what he wanted to do at QB and preferred to tank the season, or at least the first half, by entering it with Brian Hoyer and CJ Beathard at the top of your depth chart.  They promptly started 0-8 then traded for Garoppolo, a series of moves that made 100 percent sense from a football, personnel and managerial perspective.

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1 hour ago, DMC said:

It's clearly not silly to argue otherwise if simply for the reason you yourself provided in this quote.  And I never said anything remotely suggesting they got a better QB to replace him, cliched strawman there.

I was saying I'd move on because of the distraction, not because of valid football reasons. And it matters that your team has not found a better replacement because they can't claim they did it to get better. 

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Obviously, Shanahan wasn't sure what he wanted to do at QB and preferred to tank the season, or at least the first half, by entering it with Brian Hoyer and CJ Beathard at the top of your depth chart.  They promptly started 0-8 then traded for Garoppolo, a series of moves that made 100 percent sense from a football, personnel and managerial perspective.

Just like getting rid of him makes sense because ultimately it was not an improvement. Funny that he decided to replace Jimmy with a QB exactly like Kaepernick. 

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1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

And it matters that your team has not found a better replacement because they can't claim they did it to get better. 

Garoppolo has, when healthy, significantly and consistently outperformed Kaep's production the latter's last two years with the Niners. 

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

Funny that he decided to replace Jimmy with a QB exactly like Kaepernick. 

LOL at Garoppolo and Kaep being anything approaching "exactly alike" Mobility-wise Kaep was (and still probably is) eons beyond Garoppolo.  And Kaep had a cannon but had issues running through quick reads on short passes that are essential to any West Coast style derivation.  In terms of passing they're almost polar opposites. 

ETA: Whoops sorry disregard that second graph, I obviously misunderstood and didn't realize you were referring to Lance.  I hate posting on my phone. 

Anyway, YES!, Shanahan tried the classic/conservative game manager type with Garoppolo then took a homerun swing on a guy with Kaep's potential coming up.  He clearly changed his mind with experience and simply observing how the game was changing, which is perfectly fine and how it should happen. 

It's also why I disagreed with your insistence the Niners were gonna pick Jones over Lance or Fields because at the time Shanahan was clearly indicating the opposite in his pressers.

Edited by DMC
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5 minutes ago, DMC said:

Garoppolo has, when healthy, significantly and consistently outperformed Kaep's production the latter's last two years with the Niners. 

LOL at Garoppolo and Kaep being anything approaching "exactly alike" Mobility-wise Kaep was (and still probably is) eons beyond Garoppolo.  And Kaep had a cannon but had issues running through quick reads on short passes that are essential to any West Coast style derivation.  In terms of passing they're almost polar opposites. 

I think he was talking about Kaep and Lance. 

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21 hours ago, DMC said:

It's clearly not silly to argue otherwise if simply for the reason you yourself provided in this quote.  And I never said anything remotely suggesting they got a better QB to replace him, cliched strawman there.

Obviously, Shanahan wasn't sure what he wanted to do at QB and preferred to tank the season, or at least the first half, by entering it with Brian Hoyer and CJ Beathard at the top of your depth chart.  They promptly started 0-8 then traded for Garoppolo, a series of moves that made 100 percent sense from a football, personnel and managerial perspective.

I think there’s some divide here on what constitutes a ‘football reason’. You seem to be suggesting, not unreasonably, that a new front office might decide that the circus surrounding Kaep would be a distraction…the civil war was about states rights side of this argument imo…because that’s what Ty was referencing. But the circus itself was comprised almost entirely of an authoritarian/conservative backlash against a man making a sincere, thoughtful and incredibly understated protest against what we all understand to be a great systemic wrong in the U.S. 

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19 hours ago, DMC said:

Garoppolo has, when healthy, significantly and consistently outperformed Kaep's production the latter's last two years with the Niners. 

I mean, yeah, a healthy X is usually better than an injured Y. Conversely a healthy Kaep was way better than an injured Garoppolo. What are we talking about here?

 

Anyways, two edited point:

1) I am not stalking you. (Only laterally realized I have responded to 3 straight posts.)

2) Regardless, I think this entire discussion, both sides, supports my claim of bullshit for the reasons I called bullshit re: Watson’s suspension. The reasons given are not determinative, we all agree. We disagree about why those reasons have/would not be sufficient to temper league treatment of other players. 

Edited by James Arryn
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19 hours ago, DMC said:

Garoppolo has, when healthy, significantly and consistently outperformed Kaep's production the latter's last two years with the Niners. 

Kaep at his best was a top 10ish QB. Jimmy has never been that and I would argue Kaep’s two playoff games against GB are better than anything jimmy has ever done. Jimmy, BTW, in his four playoff wins has just 1 TD and I think he averaged less than 150 yards per game.

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LOL at Garoppolo and Kaep being anything approaching "exactly alike" Mobility-wise Kaep was (and still probably is) eons beyond Garoppolo.  And Kaep had a cannon but had issues running through quick reads on short passes that are essential to any West Coast style derivation.  In terms of passing they're almost polar opposites. 

ETA: Whoops sorry disregard that second graph, I obviously misunderstood and didn't realize you were referring to Lance.  I hate posting on my phone. 

:spank:

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Anyway, YES!, Shanahan tried the classic/conservative game manager type with Garoppolo then took a homerun swing on a guy with Kaep's potential coming up.  He clearly changed his mind with experience and simply observing how the game was changing, which is perfectly fine and how it should happen. 

I wouldn’t even call it being conservative, they were actively hiding him.

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It's also why I disagreed with your insistence the Niners were gonna pick Jones over Lance or Fields because at the time Shanahan was clearly indicating the opposite in his pressers.

I WAS JOKING. The only reason to believe they were going with Jones is because Chris Simms said so and he famously has Kyle’s initials tattooed on him. The top three picks should have been Lawrence, Fields and Lance in that order. Jones is a second or third round talent that inspires all the optimism of Andy Dalton.  

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2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

More reasons why I hate ESPN: 9AM A block, let’s talk about the Giants O-Line and Danny Dimes. JFC.

Yeah, they always assume that people care about shitty New York and LA teams and no one does.  

When those teams are good, sure, talk about them, but nobody wants to see another NFC East prime time game between Washington and New York.  Stop trying to force that shit on us. 

Edited by briantw
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Also, can we all agree that the Lions, Bears, and Giants should have to have a winning season before they’re allowed to play on Thanksgiving again?  I don’t care if the Lions doing so is tradition.  I’m sick of fucking watching bad Thanksgiving football with minimal fantasy relevance when it’s supposed to be distracting me from interacting with my family. 

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1 hour ago, briantw said:

Yeah, they always assume that people care about shitty New York and LA teams and no one does.  

When those teams are good, sure, talk about them, but nobody wants to see another NFC East prime time game between Washington and New York.  Stop trying to force that shit on us. 

It wouldn't surprise me if >50% of their content on average is NY and LA teams, the Cowboys, LeBron and KD, made worse because the latter two are now in the former two. 

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I'm more than half convinced that Justin Herbert is only pushed so much because they want that second LA team to be relevant.  Wake me up when he does something.

It amazes me how much time they spend talking bad teams.

I don't know if its just coastal bias, or if its just that bad teams have drama that drives discussion while a good team like the Chiefs just kinda continues on without a lot to talk about.

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2 hours ago, briantw said:

Also, can we all agree that the Lions, Bears, and Giants should have to have a winning season before they’re allowed to play on Thanksgiving again?  I don’t care if the Lions doing so is tradition.  I’m sick of fucking watching bad Thanksgiving football with minimal fantasy relevance when it’s supposed to be distracting me from interacting with my family. 

Hey! Thanksgiving is all Lions fans have, leave them alone! Thanksgiving used to be a punishment to play on, funny how times change.

On a side note about a team that gets pushed too much, Tyron Smith suffered his annual injury and will be out like 3 months so yippee! At least now the talking heads won't be over hyping the Cowboys o-line since it is now a team weakness.

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17 minutes ago, dbunting said:

Thanksgiving used to be a punishment to play on, funny how times change.

I mean, it probably still feels that way for the players, but as fans I'd like to think most of us would prefer watching actual good football over the hot garbage games we usually get on Turkey Day.  Last year was particularly awful, and this year's slate doesn't seem much better.

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