UK Politics- P0rn, Horn and Local Elections

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

2 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Except nothing there says you can’t work your way out of poverty.

There is also nothing there that says that you can, because the question of whether or not people can work their way out of poverty is not the point of these particular studies and articles. 

[Heartofice]

10 minutes ago, Matrim Fox Cauthon said:

There is also nothing there that says that you can, because the question of whether or not people can work their way out of poverty is not the point of these particular studies and articles. 

Exactly. Which makes you wonder why people are smugly posting them in a conversation about whether people can work their way out of poverty.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

6 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Exactly. Which makes you wonder why people are smugly posting them in a conversation about whether people can work their way out of poverty.

No, it really doesn't make me wonder at all, because it's easy to follow the arguments being made in the conversation and how those links match up with the claims people in this thread are making.

There are plenty of studies out there on the difficulties for people to work their way out of poverty, growing economic disparity between classes, and how class/wealth impacts chances for success across multiple generations. None will say that it "can't be done," but such a hardline can/can't is a fairly ridiculous position that is fishing for exceptions to disprove the central argument about whether it's practical or feasible to expect that most to pragmatically be able to do so. 

[Heartofice]

4 minutes ago, Matrim Fox Cauthon said:

No, it really doesn't make me wonder at all, because it's easy to follow the arguments being made in the conversation and how those links match up with the claims people in this thread are making.

There are plenty of studies out there on the difficulties for people to work their way out of poverty, growing economic disparity between classes, and how class/wealth impacts chances for success across multiple generations. None will say that it "can't be done," but such a hardline can/can't is a fairly ridiculous position that is fishing for exceptions to disprove the central argument about whether it's practical or feasible to expect that most to pragmatically be able to do so. 

And I have said that there are clearly difficulties and barriers to doing so, my whole point is that the system should work to allow people to work their way out of poverty, not to just 'give people stuff', which, going back to what started this entire conversation, was what the Tory MP was attempting to suggest.

I was also responding to Pebbles comment that suggested that you literally cannot work your way out of poverty, which is clearly untrue. Again, not to suggest its easy, or that it shouldn't be made easier, but it's just not true that its impossible. There are plenty of ways to improve your lot in life without blaming the system or everyone else. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

 

11 hours ago, Heartofice said:

Every inequality in life is due to discrimination rather than luck or choice.

A person can be unlucky to be born blind and have his struggles amplified through discrimination.

11 hours ago, Heartofice said:

but the overall goal is to help people help themselves, not just give people hand outs unnecessarily.

Whose argued to give handouts unnecessarily?

[Varysblackfyre321]

50 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

suggested that you literally cannot work your way out of poverty, which is clearly untrue.

Right. Technically anyone can become an billionaire Astronaut.

 

51 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

There are plenty of ways to improve your lot in life without blaming the system or everyone else. 

It’s possible to work on improving your society and you personal life as well.

[Pebble thats Stubby]

we should not have foodbanks.

People should not have to need charity just to not starve.  If they need to use foodbanks then something is very wrong and they are not getting enough state support.

 

This does not mean I think we should close the foodbanks.  but we should do what we can to eliminate the need for the foodbanks.

 

 

You are saying we should make it easier for people to work themselves out of poverty and not give more handouts.    I agree this is the end goal,  but people are in poverty now and need more assistance right now.  this does unfortunately mean more handouts right now.   Even if we removed a lot of the barriers and made it a lot easier to work their way out magically right this second.  it still takes a person a long time to work themselves out of poverty.

Its like give a man a fish he eats for a day.

teach a man to fish he can eat for life  - if he does not first starve to death while you teach him to fish, also this assumes the man can afford the fishing rod and bait and fishing licence, when he was learning he was using yours.

 

I'm sure its not what you intended but you come across as   people should be able to work themselves out of poverty and as some few have managed it we don't need to give more help to people right now.  maybe we can do something vague and unspecified to make it easier for people to achieve this but not if its going to cost any money.

 

People need actual help right now and with the cost of living increasing and wages not then more and more people are going to need help.  Suggesting the system kinda works cos some people make it is not helping people and makes you sound really uncaring.

 

[Heartofice]

17 minutes ago, Pebble thats Stubby said:

I'm sure its not what you intended but you come across as   people should be able to work themselves out of poverty and as some few have managed it we don't need to give more help to people right now.  maybe we can do something vague and unspecified to make it easier for people to achieve this but not if its going to cost any money.

 

Thats your assumption but it's not what I'm saying. As I've said before, we need to provide help to people who need that support for instance if they cannot work, whilst also creating a flexible job market that allows people to find better paying jobs, take on an appropriate amount of work for their situation without being penalised.

Again, this is basically what Maclean was saying in the interview, but for some reason you cannot say this because, just like you have here, twisting it to meaning something much more malicious. 


 

[Pebble thats Stubby]

1 minute ago, Heartofice said:

Thats your assumption but it's not what I'm saying. As I've said before, we need to provide help to people who need that support for instance if they cannot work, whilst also creating a flexible job market that allows people to find better paying jobs, take on an appropriate amount of work for their situation without being penalised.

Again, this is basically what Maclean was saying in the interview, but for some reason you cannot say this because, just like you have here, twisting it to meaning something much more malicious. 


 

So you agree the current system is not working?

 

We should give more immediate help right now  and make it easier for people not to need that help in the future?

 

My Assumption was you did not mean everything the way it read to just about everyone else other than you, hence my words I'm sure its not "what you intended but you come across as" 

[Varysblackfyre321]

22 minutes ago, Pebble thats Stubby said:

People should not have to need charity just to not starve. 

Which charity doesn’t really help with to any meaningful extent.

Charity often  is mainly just useful in making the individuals donating feel benevolent.

[Heartofice]

5 minutes ago, Pebble thats Stubby said:

So you agree the current system is not working?

It works for some people and there are barriers for others and it could work better.

[Pebble thats Stubby]

4 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

It works for some people and there are barriers for others and it could work better.

I think most people in this thread think  doesn't really work for any, those that do manage to escape poverty do so in spite of the system and not because of it, and thus should not be held up as examples of the system working at any level.   _ which is why we have mainly been focusing on this part.   But since you have agreed the system needs to be better and barriers removed agreement on exactly how badly the current system works/not works is not needed.

 

And no-one is twisting things at least not deliberately.  its what we generally interoperate what has been said and posted.  Sometimes text is not the best way to communicate.

 

I did not see the Maclean interview.  Did they give any suggestions on how to make the system better?  or remove barriers?  or did they just suggest that some people manage so why can't all people if only they could budget better?  Which to a lot of people makes it sound like nothing should be done.   Politicians should be very careful with what they say and how they say things.  its very easy to sound uncaring and horrible.

[Heartofice]

3 minutes ago, Pebble thats Stubby said:

I think most people in this thread think  doesn't really work for any,

If anyone genuinely believes that then they are simply wrong. Of course it works for some people. The UK's social mobility isn't very good, but it's not zero and quite a few people manage to get out of poverty, and manage to have better lives and create better lives for their children. That simply happens. I've seen it many times myself, I know people who arrived in this country with literally nothing, living in crappy accommodation with 11 other people, who got jobs, worked their way up in that job, got education, got better jobs, and now have a pretty much comfortable middle class existence. It took years and wasn't easy at all.  That doesn't mean it shouldn't be easier, but claiming it doesn't work for anyone is absolutely batshit. 
 

5 minutes ago, Pebble thats Stubby said:

those that do manage to escape poverty do so in spite of the system and not because of it,

They still have to work within the system (unless resorting to crime) so anyone escaping poverty is thereby using the system to do so. 

6 minutes ago, Pebble thats Stubby said:

But since you have agreed the system needs to be better and barriers removed agreement on exactly how badly the current system works/not works is not needed.

 

Well I think if you are of the opinion that the system produces no positive effect EVER then there might not be any point discussing the topic at all.

8 minutes ago, Pebble thats Stubby said:

Did they give any suggestions on how to make the system better?  or remove barriers?

It was a 30 second interview taken wildly out of proportion. She made a general comment that the government wants to help people improve their lives by making the job market work better, she didn't have time nor the need to discuss all the other ways of fixing a country. 

10 minutes ago, Pebble thats Stubby said:

Politicians should be very careful with what they say and how they say things.  its very easy to sound uncaring and horrible.

Yes, we live in a world where is absolutely no good faith when it comes to reporting. 

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

It works for some people and there are barriers for others and it could work better.

Are you unaware that the system is not designed to do this? Upward economic mobility, for starters, is increasingly rare and largely only happens by luck and chance. And likewise, downward economic mobility when you're at the top is also rare because everything is set up so that if you're born rich you'll die rich unless you're a complete fuck up, er, oh wait, that's how you become the PM of the UK these days...

[Varysblackfyre321]

16 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Of course it works for some people. The UK's social mobility isn't very good, but it's not zero and quite a few people manage to get out of poverty, and manage to have better lives and create better lives for their children.

In spite of the system.

16 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I've seen it many times myself, I know people who arrived in this country with literally nothing, living in crappy accommodation with 11 other people, who got jobs, worked their way up in that job, got education, got better jobs, and now have a pretty much comfortable middle class existence.

In spite of the system.

You get you can apply your logic to any society no matter how dysfunctional right?

There is no state that can’t at least one poor person becoming wildly successful.

Like you get this right?  

16 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

That doesn't mean it shouldn't be easier, but claiming it doesn't work for anyone is absolutely batshit. 
 

People can work and succeed in spite of being forced to work in a bad system.

16 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

She made a general comment that the government wants to help people improve their lives by making the job market work better, she didn't have time nor the need to discuss all the other ways of fixing a country. 

That’s a nice deflection of personal responsibility. 
She doesn’t need to discuss ways all viable ways to fix the country.

What exactly is the point of giving her a government salary then?

To be clear she did have time to give a a good answer. This wasn’t some ambush interview she was unprepared for. She agreed to it, probably knew the topic which would be discussed.

16 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

we live in a world where is absolutely no good faith when it comes to reporting. 

It’s not a problem of reporting what she said was bad in substance.

35 minutes ago, Pebble thats Stubby said:

its very easy to sound uncaring and horrible.

Especially when you are uncaring and terrible lol.

Thankfully there are rubes who’d overlook that in favor of promoting their culture war.

[Heartofice]

4 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

In spite of the system.

Again no. You either use the system or you don't. There is no 'in spite of the system'. 

5 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

largely only happens by luck and chance

Nonsense.

I think it's perfectly possible to have a conversation on how to improve social mobility in the UK without making outlandishly foolish and over the top statements like the two I just quoted. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

8 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Again no. You either use the system or you don't. There is no 'in spite of the system'. 

“Why get rid of feudalism? Look I know a peasant who became a knight and then a lord. The system worked for them!” 
 

8 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Nonsense

Do you have some studies you’d like to give over to bolster your claim?

[Heartofice]

3 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Do you have some studies you’d like to give over to bolster your claim?

It's not up to me to disprove an outlandish claim, it's for the person to make the claim to prove it. So if they can so good quality data that shows that almost all social mobility only ever happens by luck and chance then go ahead. 

[Heartofice]

3 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

Do you have some studies you’d like to give over to bolster your claim?

It's not up to me to disprove an outlandish claim, it's for the person to make the claim to prove it. So if they can so good quality data that shows that almost all social mobility only ever happens by luck and chance then go ahead. 

5 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

“Why get rid of feudalism? Look I know a peasant who became a knight and then a lord. The system worked for them!” 

Again, comparing the current system to feudalism is just trolling.

[Varysblackfyre321]

11 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

I think it's perfectly possible to have a conversation on how to improve social mobility in the UK without making outlandishly foolish and over the top statements like the two I just quoted. 

It’s perfectly possible to not digress to holding individual success stories as reflections on poor or proper a system is by itself.

Literally every society no matter how badly run or treated can point to at least one person who managed to become rich after starting off poor.