The Old Bear

[Sam Fan]

I am reading the books again and realized I have a question. If I understand Jorah Mormont's story his father Jeor Mormont (aka The Old Bear) had not been in the Knight's Watch for much more than maybe 20 years. My question is why is he there? Benjen Stark apparently went to the Knight's Watch out of a sense of honor and service. Did Jeor Mormont do the same? Is it possible he was recruited specifically to be Lord Commander? There seems to be no suggestion that he was forced to "take the black."

[Son of Man]

Jeor took the black in order for his son to inherit the title, Lord Mormont of Bear Island.

[James Arryn]

His wife had died and his son was grown, in think he was looking to make a difference elsewhere. 

[John Suburbs]

It's one of the many unanswered questions in aSoIaF. It's likely to remain that way, like how the Mormonts managed to snag themselves a valyrian steel sword.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

I think Jeor wanted to a.....make a difference, and b.....get away from all his women relatives on Bear Island.  I say the second part half jokingly but half seriously, too.  

[The hairy bear]

On 5/6/2022 at 9:12 PM, Lady Fevre Dream said:

I think Jeor wanted to a.....make a difference, and b.....get away from all his women relatives on Bear Island.  I say the second part half jokingly but half seriously, too.  

Actually, giving Longclaw to Jon Snow and thus preventing Maege, Dacey and their descendants from inheriting the ancestral sword of House Mormont that had belonged to the family for five centuries, seems like a very dick move. One may argue that this would support the thesis that Jeor wasn't in very good terms with his female relatives.

However, he only was able to give the sword to Jon because Maege had sent it to him when Jorah left it behind. IT doesn't make much sense fer her to do that. The sword belonged to the family, not to Jeor, and after joining the Watch he did no longer had any rights to it.

[Edgar Allen Poemont]

The Old Bear is one of my favorite characters. He reminds me a bit of my grandfather. He joined the Watch to make room for Jorah to become Lord of Bear Isle, but I think the reasons for that are due to the complexities of father son relationships, which is an ongoing theme throughout ASOIF.
 It’s not too hard to imagine Jeor, as a younger man, being a very demanding and intimidating father, in many respects. He is still that way, as Lord Commander, but you can also see, especially in his relationship with Jon, a stern and demanding but also tempered with understanding and a forgiving nature. I think he learned to be more that way through his service to the Watch. I think he loved Jorah, but struggled with teaching him how to be the man, that Jeor wanted him to be and also, how to be the Lord he was expected to be. Jorah wanted to be something else; a knight. For one tournament he was inspired by romantic love to be the champion. Then he started to spend his inheritance and finally, his honor trying to replicate that version of himself. He became fixated on serving his wife, who wanted all the comforts of life, because she was the symbol to Jorah of what made him the best knight he could be. She, in turn, became disillusioned that her knight in shining armor was heir to modest holdings and wondered why he couldn’t be that romantic champion for her all the time.
So, I think Jeor’s hope was, if he let Jorah become Lord, he would be able to grow into a more satisfied man, through honoring his duties.
I also get the feeling that for Jeor, there was also, some sense of atonement for the mistakes he may have felt he made with Jorah and maybe, some regrets or guilt.
The following quote illustrates this to me. As, Jeor is dying I think he sees how it’s all connected. He couldn’t help or make amends to Jorah directly but he is dying with honor and he has made a difference at the Wall, particularly with Jon Snow. He wants that opportunity for Jorah to regain his honor and make a difference by serving, too. 

I also think one of Jorah’s best acts was leaving the sword behind.

A Storm of Swords - Samwell II

"Tell them what, my lord?" Sam asked politely.

"All. The Fist. The wildlings. Dragonglass. This. All." His breathing was very shallow now, his voice a whisper. "Tell my son. Jorah. Tell him, take the black. My wish. Dying wish."

"Wish?" The raven cocked its head, beady black eyes shining. "Corn?" the bird asked.

 

 

 

 

[LynnS]

On 5/6/2022 at 11:38 AM, John Suburbs said:

It's one of the many unanswered questions in aSoIaF. It's likely to remain that way, like how the Mormonts managed to snag themselves a valyrian steel sword.

I wonder if Jorah, Joer and Tormund have a common ancestor in Joramund.  I assume some Valyrian blades came with the Andals and is it possible Joramund had a dragonsteel sword as well as the horn of winter?  Tormund boasts of mating with bears and perhaps there has been contact between wildlings and Bear Island going back generations.  This might be an old family story with Tormund adjusting it for it's entertainment value.  Perhaps Joramund gave the horn to one son and the sword to another and they ended up on opposite sides of the Wall and handed down that way.

Mind you Tormund doesn't have the horn specifically; but I believe he has the metal band that fits the rim of the horn that can repair it.  He says it was handed down to him from his father and it's the metal band he doesn't turn over to Jon Snow.

That's a bit tin foiley and no connection other than names; but I like it.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

On 5/11/2022 at 5:51 AM, The hairy bear said:

Actually, giving Longclaw to Jon Snow and thus preventing Maege, Dacey and their descendants from inheriting the ancestral sword of House Mormont that had belonged to the family for five centuries, seems like a very dick move. One may argue that this would support the thesis that Jeor wasn't in very good terms with his female relatives.

However, he only was able to give the sword to Jon because Maege had sent it to him when Jorah left it behind. IT doesn't make much sense fer her to do that. The sword belonged to the family, not to Jeor, and after joining the Watch he did no longer had any rights to it.

Do we have any confirmation anywhere that Jeor told Jon a true story about the sword's history? Like does any other Mormont mention Longclaw? Do any of the Mormont women mention the slight? I don't remember Jorah ever mentioning it and I'm not convinced the whole tale isn't just cooked up for Jon's benefit. 

[Edgar Allen Poemont]

@Aejohn the Conqueroo
There are some who suggest it could be Dark Sister, last known to be owned by Bloodraven and possibly taken with him to the Wall. It is also possible there were instructions left by him for succeeding LC’s to give it to someone who displayed the right character, but I have never seen any textual reference. Dark Sister was also a bastard sword, if I remember correctly.

I do like the idea that as far as Jorah got to bankrupting himself, he retained a shred of honor and refused to sell the most valuable object owned by his family. Of course, he did sell human beings, which to a true knight should be more valuable than any sword.

 

 

 

 

[Edgar Allen Poemont]

@LynnS, I like the connection you’ve made with Joramund, Jorah and Jeor and Toramund. I’ve never seen that made before. I think  the connections between the North and the Wildlings are very significant. Nice catch!

[Prince of the North]

37 minutes ago, Edgar Allen Poemont said:

Dark Sister was also a bastard sword, if I remember correctly.

Dark Sister is actually a longsword  But Blackfyre is a bastard (or hand-and-a-half) sword like Longclaw.

[Edgar Allen Poemont]

Thanks @Prince of the North, I wasn’t sure. You’re right, it is a slender longsword that was probably made for a woman, according to the Wiki, so not Longclaw. 

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Edgar Allen Poemont said:

I like the connection you’ve made with Joramund, Jorah and Jeor and Toramund. I’ve never seen that made before. I think  the connections between the North and the Wildlings are very significant. Nice catch!

Maege Mormont is also an interesting name.  It's close to Maegi or Maggy (in pronunciation).  So perhaps the Mormonts have a female descendant who was a wood's witch of the Wildlings.

Longclaw is also a great bastard sword.  Which would be very appropiate for Jon if he is made Lord of Witerfell at some point. Bear claws are worn by the wildlings.  So Longclaw is a good name for the ancestral sword belonging to the House of the Bear.. 

I think Dark Sister is in the cave with Bloodraven and Meera may end up with it. 

[Edgar Allen Poemont]

8 hours ago, LynnS said:

Maege Mormont is also an interesting name.  It's close to Maegi or Maggy (in pronunciation).  So perhaps the Mormonts have a female descendant who was a wood's witch of the Wildlings.

Longclaw is also a great bastard sword.  Which would be very appropiate for Jon if he is made Lord of Witerfell at some point. Bear claws are worn by the wildlings.  So Longclaw is a good name for the ancestral sword belonging to the House of the Bear.. 

I think Dark Sister is in the cave with Bloodraven and Meera may end up with it. 

That’s a great connection, too with Maege, Maegi and Maggy. I actually wondered to myself last night about what role or significance the she-bears hold. Dacey is probably meant to be connected to Lyanna, too, both seem to be tragic warrior type women to me. I wonder if Meera suggests a bridge between the two name groupings. A warrior figure with witch capabilities. Dark Sister would perhaps transform into Light Sister in her strong loving hand.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

14 hours ago, Edgar Allen Poemont said:

@Aejohn the Conqueroo
There are some who suggest it could be Dark Sister, last known to be owned by Bloodraven and possibly taken with him to the Wall. It is also possible there were instructions left by him for succeeding LC’s to give it to someone who displayed the right character, but I have never seen any textual reference. Dark Sister was also a bastard sword, if I remember correctly.

I do like the idea that as far as Jorah got to bankrupting himself, he retained a shred of honor and refused to sell the most valuable object owned by his family. Of course, he did sell human beings, which to a true knight should be more valuable than any sword.

 

 

 

 

Dark Sister isn't really a fit. If Longclaw is a Targ sword it would have to be Blackfyre which would mean that Bloodraven wound up with it and brought it north with him.

I like your take on Jorah's honour but like you say a human life should be seen as of greater value than a sword to a true knight (somewhere Sansa's weeping). I just think that if it were his Jorah would have spoken of leaving it behind when he ran into exile. He lays himself pretty bare when he speaks to Danny abut his past and it seems like the kind of slightly redeeming act that a person might overvalue when trying to paint himself and his slave trading youth in a sympathetic light.

[Tagganaro]

7 hours ago, Edgar Allen Poemont said:

That’s a great connection, too with Maege, Maegi and Maggy. I actually wondered to myself last night about what role or significance the she-bears hold. Dacey is probably meant to be connected to Lyanna, too, both seem to be tragic warrior type women to me. I wonder if Meera suggests a bridge between the two name groupings. A warrior figure with witch capabilities. Dark Sister would perhaps transform into Light Sister in her strong loving hand.

It is really interesting to consider how the Mormonts are EVERYWHERE in ASOIAF haha.  There definitely could be a connection with Maegi and prophecy since the Mormonts have a family member with like every single important character in ASOIAF.  Jeor was with Jon, Jorah with Dany/Tyrion, Maege is possibly with Howland Reed and knows of Robb's will legitimizing Jon, and Alysane is with Stannis.

[Edgar Allen Poemont]

@Aejohn the Conqueroo I agree it’s not Dark Sister. @Prince of the North pointed out Dark Sister is a longsword. If it was Blackfyre, though, there would have to be a lot of story to explain how it got to the Mormonts or the Wall. I think it most likely is just Longclaw, but the history of how the Mormonts acquired it is still a mystery. I did a search of Longclaw and a couple interesting things popped up for me. Jeor tells Jon it’s name:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon VIII

"Claw," the raven cried. "Claw."

"Longclaw is an apt name." Jon tried a practice cut. He was clumsy and uncomfortable with his left hand, yet even so the steel seemed to flow through the air, as if it had a will of its own. "Wolves have claws, as much as bears."

The Old Bear seemed pleased by that.

Jeor is pleased Jon has drawn a parallel between House Stark and House Mormont, which seems to suggest a shared history but also a shared sense of honor. I’m convinced Jeor is committing himself to Jon here, almost like adopting him, as much as he’s looking for a commitment from Jon in regards to the Watch. He sees a chance to act differently with Jon than he did for Jorah. Later when Jon is considering deserting he leaves Longclaw behind:

Quote

When Jon did not appear to fetch the Old Bear's breakfast from the kitchen, they'd look in his cell and find Longclaw on the bed. It had been hard to abandon it, but Jon was not so lost to honor as to take it with him. Even Jorah Mormont had not done that, when he fled in disgrace. Doubtless Lord Mormont would find someone more worthy of the blade. Jon felt bad when he thought of the old man. He knew his desertion would be salt in the still-raw wound of his son's disgrace. That seemed a poor way to repay him for his trust, but it couldn't be helped. No matter what he did, Jon felt as though he were betraying someone.

Later, after Jon has left to join Robb, he even thinks of it in familial terms:

Quote

But he had not left the Wall for that; he had left because he was after all his father's son, and Robb's brother. The gift of a sword, even a sword as fine as Longclaw, did not make him a Mormont.

We don’t get Jeor’s internal monologue but I bet part of him is wishing he could have given the sword back to Jorah and helped him restore his honor but that opportunity has passed. The Wiki page on Jorah reminded me that he had the option to join the Watch after his crime was  discovered and Eddard had sentenced him to death. Maybe, part of the reason he fled was he didn’t want to face his father after what he had done, even more than he didn’t want to face Eddard.

I think GRRM is actually telling us the story is true, even without all the details being revealed, by repeating it through Jon’s POV and then his actions, when he’s contemplating deserting his Watch “family”. Not that there may not be a hidden mystery to the sword’s origin, but the symbolic significance may be more important.

11 hours ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

I just think that if it were his Jorah would have spoken of leaving it behind when he ran into exile. He lays himself pretty bare when he speaks to Danny abut his past and it seems like the kind of slightly redeeming act that a person might overvalue when trying to paint himself and his slave trading youth in a sympathetic light

I would say in this regard that Jorah does reveal a lot to Daenerys but not everything. I think he wants to reveal enough to let her know he would do anything for her, but he wants her to be his new Lynesse in return. It’s unspoken in some ways but I think but it’s there. Also, I had forgotten but Daenerys has promised Jorah a Valyrian sword in return for his oath as first of her Queensguard.

[LynnS]

6 hours ago, Edgar Allen Poemont said:

Also, I had forgotten but Daenerys has promised Jorah a Valyrian sword in return for his oath as first of her Queensguard.

Did she?  That's interesting.  I didn't realize she had made that promise.  I've often thought that the sword Ice was given to Torrhen Stark for bending the knee to Aegon.  

[Edgar Allen Poemont]

3 hours ago, LynnS said:

Did she?  That's interesting.  I didn't realize she had made that promise.  I've often thought that the sword Ice was given to Torrhen Stark for bending the knee to Aegon.  

I think that’s an idea that makes a great deal of sense, too. It’s improbable that Ice is the original heirloom sword of the Starks, given that it is Valyrian steel. Catelyn even gives an approximate age as being around the time of the Conquest. The symbolism in the names is what convinces me. I think it was @Seamswho wrote about an interesting idea that I read some time ago. He suggested that Ice is connected to Justice via GRRM’s use of wordplay. If the sword stays whole, it’s Just Ice. When it’s divided in two, it becomes Oathkeeper and Widow’s Wail, which to me was the crux of Torrhen’s dilemma.  Do I honor my oath as a king  to protect my people by kneeling to a greater power or do I lead my people to almost certain destruction and hear only the grief of those left behind in defiance of that power? I think, maybe Aegon recognized the personal sacrifice Torrhen makes and rewards it by allowing him to retain the power of Ice (Just Ice) with a symbolic gift that is also imbued with the power of Valyria. When the sword is divided in two, no amount of magic can fully separate the Ice and the Fire contained in it. It’s probable that it was an exchange,too; heirloom for heirloom and the original Ice became part of the Iron Throne. The negotiations between them took all night and the ceremony took place at dawn.

In order to tie this into the discussion of this thread, I wonder if Longclaw was part of the negotiations, as well. Did House Mormont have a respected position in Torrhen’s counsel? Is the name Longclaw tied to the Long Night, in some way? The words of House Mormont are Here We Stand and their holdings are on an island in the middle of the Bay of Ice. The Wiki page for House Mormont says Longclaw may date back 500 years.