Lovely women of Lys

[Moiraine Sedai]

Steffon should have found a suitable bride in Lys.  Did he really try to find a bride for Rhaegar? What was his gain if the trip ended in failure?

Lastly, are we going to know more about Larra Rogare and her family?

 

 

 

[John Suburbs]

I don't think he was instructed to go to Lys, just Volantis. That's where the most prominent bloodlines of Old Valyria are, and they probably rejected a match with a Targaryen because they were a relatively lowly family when the freehold was still around.

[James Arryn]

34 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

I don't think he was instructed to go to Lys, just Volantis. That's where the most prominent bloodlines of Old Valyria are, and they probably rejected a match with a Targaryen because they were a relatively lowly family when the freehold was still around.

I think it’s made pretty clear that they were the only extant dragonlord house from Valyria, albeit not one of the most prestigious. There had been one or two other individuals…a Balaerys, for example…who were elsewhere for the Doom but they died off pretty quickly. So I don’t think that would explain it. Possibly there is some bias against the house for going West, but I doubt it would be enough to mitigate their being the sole remnant of the, was it 40 families?

[Moiraine Sedai]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

I don't think he was instructed to go to Lys, just Volantis. That's where the most prominent bloodlines of Old Valyria are, and they probably rejected a match with a Targaryen because they were a relatively lowly family when the freehold was still around.

Aerys was choosy. I get it. I would have included Lys.  Lady Rogarre was from Lys and she married Viserys.

[Moiraine Sedai]

30 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

I think it’s made pretty clear that they were the only extant dragonlord house from Valyria, albeit not one of the most prestigious. There had been one or two other individuals…a Balaerys, for example…who were elsewhere for the Doom but they died off pretty quickly. So I don’t think that would explain it. Possibly there is some bias against the house for going West, but I doubt it would be enough to mitigate their being the sole remnant of the, was it 40 families?

The Targaryens were said to far from the most powerful of the Dragonlords but it doesn’t mean they were at the bottom. If we compare to billionaires, they’re not Elon or Bezos. They’re middle of the pack billionaires. 

[EggBlue]

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I don't think he was instructed to go to Lys, just Volantis. That's where the most prominent bloodlines of Old Valyria are, and they probably rejected a match with a Targaryen because they were a relatively lowly family when the freehold was still around.

that's unlikely . with or without dragons , Targaryens still ranked above any Valyrian Volantine noble family , none of whom were one of 40 families . I think Steffon and Aerys weren't happy the Volantine matches they found as in they couldn't find a beneficial enough family union.

as for OP , it seems Steffon and Aerys put their attention on Volantis alone and never bothered with three sisters . maybe they didn't want Westeros to ever have to get involved with their continuous wars? or maybe they had Martell's Targaryen blood and Elia( who might have been single till 20 purposefully, like Arianne ) in mind as plan B already ?

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, James Arryn said:

I think it’s made pretty clear that they were the only extant dragonlord house from Valyria, albeit not one of the most prestigious. There had been one or two other individuals…a Balaerys, for example…who were elsewhere for the Doom but they died off pretty quickly. So I don’t think that would explain it. Possibly there is some bias against the house for going West, but I doubt it would be enough to mitigate their being the sole remnant of the, was it 40 families?

The Old Blood claim to be direct descendants from Old Valyria. True or not, they would consider a minor house like the Targaryens to be beneath them.

[John Suburbs]

21 hours ago, Moiraine Sedai said:

Aerys was choosy. I get it. I would have included Lys.  Lady Rogarre was from Lys and she married Viserys.

Aerys wanted a bride of suitable heritage, which is why he would go to Volantis where the Old Blood reside. But the Old Blood would be even choosier. 

Vierys only married Larra Rogare because that's where he fled during the Dance and ended up as a ward of the Lysene magistrate at the time. He was also the younger brother who would not be expected to take the crown. And the Rogares were bankers and traders, no longer nobility in the traditional sense, so a marriage of a youngest daughter to a Targaryen prince would be considered a step up.

[John Suburbs]

19 hours ago, EggBlue said:

that's unlikely . with or without dragons , Targaryens still ranked above any Valyrian Volantine noble family , none of whom were one of 40 families . I think Steffon and Aerys weren't happy the Volantine matches they found as in they couldn't find a beneficial enough family union.

as for OP , it seems Steffon and Aerys put their attention on Volantis alone and never bothered with three sisters . maybe they didn't want Westeros to ever have to get involved with their continuous wars? or maybe they had Martell's Targaryen blood and Elia( who might have been single till 20 purposefully, like Arianne ) in mind as plan B already ?

Targs would not outrank the Old Blood according to the Old Blood. They are ancient and proud families regardless of their actual heritage, and they run things in Volantis, First Daughter of Old Valyria and the only city in the world that really matters. They would look down their noses at the Targaryens as upjumped minor nobles who lucked out after the Doom to make themselves kings over a backwater continent of lesser peoples. Like the OP points out, it is very unlikely that Steffon could not find a suitable bride among the Old Blood, but it is more than likely that the Old Blood would not even let him through the Black Walls.

Volantis has been knee-deep in the continuous warfare between the sisters since the Doom, often ending up on the losing side.

[James Arryn]

1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

The Old Blood claim to be direct descendants from Old Valyria. True or not, they would consider a minor house like the Targaryens to be beneath them.

How do you work that out? 
 

A descendant of Old Valyria is merely a Valyrian, including ~ plebs.. A Dragonlord Valyrian is both Valyrian AND the ~ of a patrician. 

[Loose Bolt]

19 hours ago, James Arryn said:

How do you work that out? 
 

A descendant of Old Valyria is merely a Valyrian, including ~ plebs.. A Dragonlord Valyrian is both Valyrian AND the ~ of a patrician. 

But a dragonlord without any dragon is a loser. So when Targs lost their dragons they become a joke.

[John Suburbs]

On 5/3/2022 at 10:58 AM, James Arryn said:

How do you work that out? 
 

A descendant of Old Valyria is merely a Valyrian, including ~ plebs.. A Dragonlord Valyrian is both Valyrian AND the ~ of a patrician. 

Only the Old Blood can dwell within the black walls. People may only enter the black walls at the invitation of one of the Old Blood. They separate themselves from lesser men and think they are of superior breeding. The Targs were already of middling Valyrian stock, and they have sullied their blood even further with Martells, Blackwoods and other riff-raff. 

They will have turned their noses up at some foreigner looking to tap their purity. It is known.

 

[Moiraine Sedai]

The Targaryens have been trying to bring back the dragons since Aegon 5. Perhaps Valyrian wife would not suffice. The wife had to have come from a dragon riding family. Aerys and his advisers had a vague idea that the genes are coming from the females. 

[James Arryn]

2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Only the Old Blood can dwell within the black walls. People may only enter the black walls at the invitation of one of the Old Blood. They separate themselves from lesser men and think they are of superior breeding. The Targs were already of middling Valyrian stock, and they have sullied their blood even further with Martells, Blackwoods and other riff-raff. 

They will have turned their noses up at some foreigner looking to tap their purity. It is known.

 

No, again, they were explicitly NOT of middling stock. They were middling amongst the elite 40 dragonlord families that ruled over all the ordinary Valyrian that comprised the bulk of the population and from whom the Volantine Old Blood descend. They ruled well above the Old Blood in Valyria. 

[James Arryn]

8 hours ago, Loose Bolt said:

But a dragonlord without any dragon is a loser. So when Targs lost their dragons they become a joke.

Yeah, possibly, but it wouldn’t them rank them below descendants of pleb Valyrians who were never dragon lords to begin with. This is like saying descendants of poor member of the Sergian gens would be regarded as having worse breeding than a descendant of a pleb from the Subura because the Sergia were not as prestigious as the Metteli or Julii or Aemilia amongst the patrician families who ruled Rome. 

[EggBlue]

I don't think the Volantine spurred Targaryens due to their rank and blood or that Steffon didn't find a bride with suitable heritage as Aerys wished. I think neither Volantine nor Targaryens found a prosperous enough deal . at the end of the day marriages were contracts that were suppose to be beneficial to both parties. it's completely possible that they just didn't have same goals considering they had different concerns .. Volantine probably wanted some war with three sisters or a slavery deal or something , while Targaryens wanted to stabilize their rule now  that they didn't have dragons and had suffered from rebellions in each generation and Aerys personally wanted allies to put Tywin in his own place . Steffon was clearly one of these allies and Aerys may have reluctantly decided princess of Dorne could be the other if plan A didn't work out.

[James Fenimore Cooper XXII]

The Targaryen family hold the most prestige and are held in the highest esteem over any other family.  Aerys was arrogant.  He spurned the best match for his son, Cersei.  Now, was it due to simple arrogance or something deeper.  The Lannisters do not have the qualities needed to resurrect the dragons.  In my opinion it is this rather than arrogance that kept Aerys from picking anybody but a Martell.  While the dragon genetics are severely diluted in the Martells, as they say, it is better than nothing. 

[John Suburbs]

19 hours ago, James Arryn said:

No, again, they were explicitly NOT of middling stock. They were middling amongst the elite 40 dragonlord families that ruled over all the ordinary Valyrian that comprised the bulk of the population and from whom the Volantine Old Blood descend. They ruled well above the Old Blood in Valyria. 

Doesn't matter. They are nobodies now as far as the Old Blood are concerned -- a minor king awash in inferior blood ruling over an economic backwater. He doesn't even have an elephant to cart him around. But none of this really matters in the grand scheme of things anyway, so keep calm and carry on.

[Roswell]

To quote George Martin, "Gods do not mate with beast."  Such was the attitude of the Dragonlords.  It is easy to see why.  They could do things that other people could not: ride dragons. They were godlike.  The Targaryens were godlike beings.  King Aerys and his people simply could not settle for anybody.  Rhaegar was normal at the time and he was projected to inherit the kingdom.  A fit wife was needed.  Yes, Lys had beautiful women with the Valyrian looks.  But that was just one of the desirable qualities.  The woman had to be noble and come from a rich family.  Yes, they were probably attempting to birth the Promised One who would bring back the Dragons.  For that, they needed a descendant of the Dragonlords.  One of their own.  Prophecies have a way of coming true.  Daenerys became the Azor Ahai of the prophecies years later. 

[Roswell]

Cersei was the best political choice but King Aerys was said to have been jealous of Tywin.  I think it was more complicated than that.  He did not want the Lannisters to have that much power.  But he can't really say that as it would show weakness to worry over an underling. 

Stef Baratheon was a failure.  He crosses the oceans to find a beautiful noblewoman for Prince Rhaegar to marry.  He comes back with a Fool.  Or was the trip really a failure?  Could be he found a perfect bride at the last minute and that was why the ship was sabotaged.  Evil people, using dark magic, caused the storm.  Perhaps somebody who worshipped the Old Gods or the Drowned God called the storm.