Jump to content

Is self defense immoral for nations or individuals?


Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, The Young Maester said:

I know this is what accelerated putins hostility towards Ukraine.

:lol:

Again, let us recall that Putin had no right to Ukraine or to invade it and murder its people and destroy its infrastructure and steal everything in sight -- it didn't even have the right to be hostile, if one will conflate hostility with Putin's choice that Ukraine didn't exist and that heman of history chose to fire the first shots.

Sheesh.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Zorral said:

:lol:

Again, let us recall that Putin had no right to Ukraine or to invade it and murder its people and destroy its infrastructure and steal everything in sight -- it didn't even have the right to be hostile, if one will conflate hostility with Putin's choice that Ukraine didn't exist and that heman of history chose to fire the first shots.

Sheesh.  

I don’t understand what it has to do with what I said.

As I said I did word it wrong. By accelerating hostility I mean that it accelerated or more like it made putin invade Ukraine sooner.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Now I realised that I worded it incorrectly. English isnt my mother tongue after all.


My laughter had nothing to do with the wording, and English being your mother tongue has nothing to do with making excuses for Putin's imperialism.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, polishgenius said:


My laughter had nothing to do with the wording, and English being your mother tongue has nothing to do with making excuses for Putin's imperialism.

So how did that comment associate with making excuses for putins war?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Because isnt it true that putin invaded because Ukraine was willing to join nato?

BS Justifications offered by the Russian dictator are as relevant as asking what a woman was wearing when she was raped.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

So how did that comment associate with making excuses for putins war?

 

'It was NATO, they did it' is Putin's cover, not very convincing since he also declared lots of other reasons. Ukraine not wanting to join NATO would not have slowed him down.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, polishgenius said:

 

'It was NATO, they did it' is Putin's cover, not very convincing since he also declared lots of other reasons. Ukraine not wanting to join NATO would not have slowed him down.

My recollection of the event is that their was talk of Ukraine joining NATO. Russia proceeds to put troops on Ukrainian border. Hence why I reckon its what made putin act rashly. From their he started making demands which both Ukraine and the US refused to accept. The soldiers at the border were there for a long time by February and we received reports that Kremlin or whoever are putins advisors told him that he should either act now or call it a day and call back the soldiers.

So because putin blames it on nato that makes me as someone that’s ‘making excuses for russian imperlism’???

That is genuinely my opinion on why he put troops on the border. I thought this is a forum to discuss things not laugh at peoples opinions because you think so. And It really hurts that you would put me in the same sentence as “excuses for Russian imperialism”.

Why not try to make your point through instead of laughing at my face and then accusing me for being a sympathiser or whatever it was you insinuated. The whole point why discussions exist is to talk about certain topics with people and come to the same conclusion in certain things.

And also let me add that even if someone in here came here with their own opinions of defending this guys invasion or whatever. As long as he isnt a troll, they should be treated the same as if you were to treat other people that share the same opinion as you. Laughing at people because you believe their opinion to be garbage and coming to quick conclusion is a bullying technique and its not healthy because all it does is create an echo chamber.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, The Young Maester said:

Essential war was inevitable after 2014, especially when taking crimea painted Russia in a bad light.

So you're saying it was Putins fault?

1 hour ago, The Young Maester said:

Putin wouldve been better off trying to meddle with Ukrainian politics and try to sway the Russian speakers on voting for the pro-Russian government. 

So you're saying it was Putins fault?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Kalibuster said:

So you're saying it was Putins fault?

So you're saying it was Putins fault?

Who else was it that invaded crimea and afterwards the rest of Ukraine? Who was it that angered the Russian speaking population of Ukraine, further distancing Ukraine from Russia? Of course it’s putins fault his biggest mistakes were invading, when he shouldve been more diplomatic. Hence why I say it was an emotional reaction when he invaded crimea. Instead of assessing his options.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

 

Why not try to make your point through instead of laughing at my face and then accusing me for being a sympathiser or whatever it was you insinuated.

 

Because it's fucking tiring seeing the same bullshit raised over and over again to justify, excuse or try to explain the behaviour of an imperialist who before this latest phase of the war started openly said that he sees not just Ukraine but most of Eastern Europe as Russia's rightful property. Because buying into that rhetoric dismisses the concerns of people from that part of the world who don't want to be invaded, thanks, and if too many people in the west buy into it, it'll be much easier for him to do so. Because this has been talked through time after time, including over several pages on this topic, and yet we still keep coming back to 'well maybe NATO shouldn't have' as if there wasn't a damn reason why all the former Soviet-bloc states wanted to joint NATO ie we knew Russia would eventually try to get it all back. 

 

 

I'm making my point, I'm just making it angrily and if you don't like being seen as a sympathiser imagine how I feel seeing people make arguments that essentially amount to 'let's just give Eastern Europe to Russia' and you may not think that's what you're saying, but in the long run, it is.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, polishgenius said:

 

Because it's fucking tiring seeing the same bullshit raised over and over again to justify, excuse or try to explain the behaviour of an imperialist who before this latest phase of the war started openly said that he sees not just Ukraine but most of Eastern Europe as Russia's rightful property. Because buying into that rhetoric dismisses the concerns of people from that part of the world who don't want to be invaded, thanks, and if too many people in the west buy into it, it'll be much easier for him to do so. Because this has been talked through time after time, including over several pages on this topic, and yet we still keep coming back to 'well maybe NATO shouldn't have' as if there wasn't a damn reason why all the former Soviet-bloc states wanted to joint NATO ie we knew Russia would eventually try to get it all back. 

 

 

I'm making my point, I'm just making it angrily and if you don't like being seen as a sympathiser imagine how I feel seeing people make arguments that essentially amount to 'let's just give Eastern Europe to Russia' and you may not think that's what you're saying, but in the long run, it is.  

That’s better, I don’t really involve myself on politics forums in here so I don’t know what people are talking about here. Neither do I take politics to heart, but I really dislike people being disrespectful in general.

I like the topic op started since it talks about whether it’s moral to defend yourself. Which I find an interesting topic to talk about.

Your comments riled me up a little because is this how  people react when meeting someone of a different opinion? I’ve seen cases in both real life and internet of people shitting on someone because they have a different opinion. I see this as a bullying technique (not calling you one and neither do I think you are one anyways). But I really find this undemocratic and unfair. I’m quick to defend that person that’s getting shit on even if I don’t agree with whatever their opinion is.

Let me use an example. One time in college I was in class and some people had watched the new black panther movie. I have not watched it yet, but everyone in my class that watched it loved it. One guy disagreed and said it wasnt that great in terms of writing. Everyone was quick to absolute shit on him, one of my friends even called him racist, funny enough even the teacher was kinda shitting on him. I felt bad for the guy so I was quick to defend him even tho I never watched the movie, and told them to shut up and let him have his opinions no matter how much you disagree.

I believe people that have different opinions deserve to have their word on the table. Because this is how democracy is born, is it not? When you start shutting people down it becomes unhealthy and you have situations were sometimes is undemocratic and everyone deserves a chance to have a say in what they believe (as long as it’s reasonable of course).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Who else was it that invaded crimea and afterwards the rest of Ukraine? Who was it that angered the Russian speaking population of Ukraine, further distancing Ukraine from Russia? Of course it’s putins fault his biggest mistakes were invading, when he shouldve been more diplomatic. Hence why I say it was an emotional reaction when he invaded crimea. Instead of assessing his options.

So...the complicated reasons for all of this all boil down to it being Putins fault?

Glad we're on the same page

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Week said:

Please educate me, I'm unfamiliar with this board that I've been posting on since 2001.

Just because your trying to highlight your older dosent automatically mean your right.

Surely someone as experienced as you would know that in a democratic world other people deserve to be heard.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, Week said:

You've come into this thread repeating nonsense that has been discussed ad nauseam with some pretty questionable takes. A quick refutation is to be expected.

Ok but I don’t involve myself this much on other political forums. I now understand that your tired of talking about a topic.

But as I said calling or accusing people and not giving input on why you think they are wrong is not gonna help. Its a discussion, you can easily sway people into why you think your right. Or just link a forum that already talked about it.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, Kalibuster said:

So...the complicated reasons for all of this all boil down to it being Putins fault?

Glad we're on the same page

It's not that complicated and was discussed ad nauseam weeks ago at the start of the invasion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

in a democratic world other people deserve to be heard.

 

In a democratic world everyone deserves to have their vote counted but no, all ideas do not deserve to be heard. Giving air to stupid or damaging ideas and the people holding and pushing them is how we arrive at things like the climate crisis, anti-vax movements, Brexit, Qanon, and the current refutation of Wade vs Roe in America. You have the right to say what you want, you don't have the right for everyone to respond to it politely or to put that idea on an equal footing with ideas that aren't wrong. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

Let me use an example. One time in college I was in class and some people had watched the new black panther movie. I have not watched it yet, but everyone in my class that watched it loved it. One guy disagreed and said it wasnt that great in terms of writing. Everyone was quick to absolute shit on him, one of my friends even called him racist, funny enough even the teacher was kinda shitting on him. I felt bad for the guy so I was quick to defend him even tho I never watched the movie, and told them to shut up and let him have his opinions no matter how much you disagree.

Haha! Yes I’ve heard that happens quite a lot. Liking that movie is a purity test. 
 

Anyway it’s good to see this forums usual treatment of people you disagree with continues. Good work lads.

To be fair to The Young Maester, it’s quite easy to believe Putin’s reasoning around NATO, because it’s a meme that has spread throughout the internet and there is a sliver of truth to it. But the reality is simply that Putin believes Ukraine is part of Russia and will not countenance their independence. It’s as simple as that really. It’s actually not very complicated when you understand that. All the other reasons given for invasion, like denazification or demilitarisation are nothing more than propaganda, and shouldn’t really be engaged with. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Stay civil, folks.

@The Young Maester

As others said, earlier on the board already covered some discussion of the causes of Russia's acts of aggression against Ukraine.  You can start here, for example.

You know, I don't think it's entirely wrong to speak of Putin acting on impulses ("emotions"), especially with the various speculations about his health and remarks about his seemingly disconnected sense of how things are going. But it seems to me that it very much minimizes the fact that this hostile attitude towards Ukraine's independence is deeply embedded throughout the Russian government, politics, and military, and in large parts of civil society as well. 

You might consider this lecture on Russia's strategic culture interesting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...