Is self defense immoral for nations or individuals?

[Varysblackfyre321]

35 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

do you thing this conflict is a simple one?

Yes.

Russia for the mass rapes, murders, child abduction and puppy stealing.

The west good for trying to stop that.

 

1 minute ago, DaveSumm said:

I personally think the term should be reserved for a true attempt to extinguish an entire people; you could argue Putin doesn’t want all Ukrainians  dead, he just wants them obedient. What’s happening in Ukraine is horrific but it isn’t the same thing as the holocaust.

Eh, Genocide isn’t merely killing off all members of a targeted group.

Forced/extremely violent assimilation and cultural eradication can suffice.

Like taking kids from their parents and beating their sense of ethnic heritage out of em.

[Conflicting Thought]

2 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

The west good for trying to stop that.

meh, while the west rapes,pillages, kills and torture in the rest of the world.. yeha yeah whataboutism, etc, whatever

[Varysblackfyre321]

11 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

meh, while the west rapes,pillages, kills and torture in the rest of the world.. yeha yeah whataboutism, etc, whatever

Yes that is a whataboutism that doesn’t show how the west is acting in regards to Ukraine is evil.

An action taken by the west or lets be honest your gripe is the US isn’t evil just taken by them. 

[Padraig]

1 hour ago, Conflicting Thought said:

i belive thinking like we have seen on here is very short term and ussualy, when time passes and the fog of war is lifted, we realize that things we used to belive where very very wrong, or at least they DID have some nuance to be found, but the immediacy of the war and our emotions make that very difficult

Hmm.  That's very convenient for you.  "This conflict is more complicated than we think.  I can't tell you why at the moment but in a few years, we'll learn the truth".

If you are thinking about the Iraq War (since that is normally the "great example"), it is important to note that the Iraq War was very controversial even before it started.  Maybe not in certain circles in the US but certainly in most other places.

In fact, it is worth considering that your "its complicated" narrative ends up being the "thing you used to believe which was very wrong".

Its not like you can't find complexity in Ukraine.  Figuring out what a reasonable grounds for peace would be given Crimea, the Donbass etc?  That's difficult.  But Putin's right to invade Ukraine?  That's as simple as you are going to get in international relations.  (And the fog of war is hiding some stuff.  The true scale of Russian attrocities probably.  But also the true scale of Ukrainian losses).

[Conflicting Thought]

13 minutes ago, Padraig said:

Hmm.  That's very convenient for you.  "This conflict is more complicated than we think.  I can't tell you why at the moment but in a few years, we'll learn the truth".

If you are thinking about the Iraq War (since that is normally the "great example"), it is important to note that the Iraq War was very controversial even before it started.  Maybe not in certain circles in the US but certainly in most other places.

In fact, it is worth considering that your "its complicated" narrative ends up being the "thing you used to believe which was very wrong".

Its not like you can't find complexity in Ukraine.  Figuring out what a reasonable grounds for peace would be given Crimea, the Donbass etc?  That's difficult.  But Putin's right to invade Ukraine?  That's as simple as you are going to get in international relations.  (And the fog of war is hiding some stuff.  The true scale of Russian attrocities probably.  But also the true scale of Ukrainian losses).

hm, i think maybe im not expressing myself correctly, but i do think that russia invading ukraine is horrible, and it is wrong. he has no right to invade.

[DMC]

When things "come to light" after "the fog of war" is lifted, that usually entails finding out a party committed to war under false pretenses, or was concealing atrocities.  Also, in the eponymous case of The Fog of War of McNamara and Errol Morris, the dangers of groupthink, unnecessary escalation, and real moral relativism between the belligerents in Vietnam. 

These don't seem likely to arise when it comes to the US' current involvement in the conflict -- except for the omnipresent dangers of groupthink and unnecessary escalation.  Still, that would mean the US pressuring Ukraine to act in a certain way, and again - while this is certainly a possibility - I don't think it's useful to suggest they are thus far without providing any hard evidence.  One important thing to keep in mind on the topic, though, is that Lesson #1 (and by far the most emphasized lesson) of McNamara/Morris' Fog of War is "empathize with your enemy."

25 minutes ago, Padraig said:

If you are thinking about the Iraq War (since that is normally the "great example"), it is important to note that the Iraq War was very controversial even before it started.  Maybe not in certain circles in the US but certainly in most other places.

Here in the US too.  It didn't take an expert or inside information to at least strongly suspect the Bush administration was ginning up the case for war.  I was about two months from my 18th birthday when they invaded and I firmly thought so at the time.

[Clueless Northman]

1 hour ago, Padraig said:

If you are thinking about the Iraq War (since that is normally the "great example"), it is important to note that the Iraq War was very controversial even before it started.  Maybe not in certain circles in the US but certainly in most other places.

Ah yes, the fabled great and decisive political reaction against the Iraq War! Remember when EU decided that it was a war crime and the US had to be massively sanctioned? Remember when European political leadership asked to put Blair and Bush on trial? Remember when US billionaires had their assets seized across the rest of the world? Good times  I really don't see how that graindead Putin ever hoped to get away with invading Ukraine, since there was such a punitive example made of with the good old US of A.

[Ran]

US = Many allies and close diplomatic ties with many, many countries

Russia = Few allies, close ties mostly only to former satellites.

Putin did not act under the illusion that Iraq proved that Russia, like the US, would escape sanctions. He acted under the illusion that 2014 showed that there was little appetite for Europe to struggle with energy issues because of sanctions, and also that if the attack succeeded at the pace he demanded, it'd be fait accompli and the EU wouldn't bother to make any serious response.

But in this case, he was wrong on both counts. He over-reached mightily. 

[Varysblackfyre321]

2 hours ago, Conflicting Thought said:

hm, i think maybe im not expressing myself correctly, but i do think that russia invading ukraine is horrible, and it is wrong. he has no right to invade.

But the west is also wrong for having got involved with Ukraine from the start correct? 

[Conflicting Thought]

42 minutes ago, Varysblackfyre321 said:

But the west is also wrong for having got involved with Ukraine from the start correct? 

No, i got what you where saying.

West good, russia bad.

[Varysblackfyre321]

11 minutes ago, Conflicting Thought said:

No, i got what you where saying.

West good, russia bad.

West good for trying to stop the mass rapes, and murder in Ukraine at the hands of Russians yes.

[Padraig]

3 hours ago, Conflicting Thought said:

hm, i think maybe im not expressing myself correctly, but i do think that russia invading ukraine is horrible, and it is wrong. he has no right to invade.

You keep saying that.  The Russian invasion is horrible on one hand but the situation is so complicated on the other.  But you never tell us why its complex.  

2 hours ago, Clueless Northman said:

Ah yes, the fabled great and decisive political reaction against the Iraq War!

Lets be clear here.  There was this inference that we'll find out the truth about the Russian invasion in a few years and realise we made an error.  Like we did in "other conflicts".  But that "other conflict" is a figment of peoples' imaginations.  Never happened.  Its certainly not a "gotcha" moment.

[Varysblackfyre321]

7 minutes ago, Padraig said:

You keep saying that.  The Russian invasion is horrible on one hand but the situation is so complicated on the other.  But you never tell us why its complex

They’re just saying Ukraine wasn’t an Angel. /s 

[HoodedCrow]

I was horrified by the Republicans declaring on television in the August before the war in Iraq, that they were not ready to promote it yet, because September was marketing month.

[Zorral]

The Russians are massively plundering Ukraine of grain and every bit of equipment and machinery they can.  Tell me again how this needs to be viewed as a complex issue that demands nuanced understanding.

One thing after another the Russians ARE DOING TO UKRAINE AND ITS PEOPLE.  Ukraine isn't doing them now or at any time to Russia and its people.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

9 hours ago, Zorral said:

The Russians are massively plundering Ukraine of grain and every bit of equipment and machinery they can.  Tell me again how this needs to be viewed as a complex issue that demands nuanced understanding.

One thing after another the Russians ARE DOING TO UKRAINE AND ITS PEOPLE.  Ukraine isn't doing them now or at any time to Russia and its people.

Yeah, it's all spoken with the same tone deafness as Trump's "both sides" remark the Charlottesville Unite the Right rally. 

[Werthead]

I suspect in the long term some nuances will emerge, but these will be things like Ukrainian soldiers perhaps not treating Russian POWs correctly (as has already been alleged, sometimes with evidence). There's probably also some criticism going to be made of Ukraine not recognising Crimea as Russian, since by some accounts the majority of the population of the Crimeans genuinely wanted to be part of Russia (aside from the Crimean Tatars, and according to some reports Putin has gone to some lengths to win their support, though others suggest some oppression has taken place) and the UN could go in tomorrow and maybe host a free and open vote and probably find that to be the case. However, Ukraine recognising Crimea as Russia would be a huge concession, so it's also unsurprising that Ukraine is keeping that in their back pocket for the final peace deal. They could recognise Crimea and agree to supply it with water in return for Russia withdrawing from the land bridge (as it would render the land bridge unnecessary).

There was an interview between an overseas media organisation and Lavrov, and he was complaining about Ukrainian human rights abuses but they got him to admit that Russian soldiers are invading Ukraine and on its territory, and there are no Ukrainians on Russian territory, so the opportunity for such violations to have occurred was weighted more heavily in Russia's side.

[Heartofice]

I'd say we are almost certainly being fed quite a bit of positive propaganda from Ukraine, and over time we will learn that the Ukrainians have committed some pretty appalling acts, as well as the Russians. This wouldn't be surprising at all, because it is a war, we shouldn't be idealist in what occurs in war, horrible things happen. 

None of it really changes the main facts of the war, those being that Russia invaded Ukraine. There is a tendency by some to just become distracted from that main point and focus on 'things they aren't telling you'.. which I think is a little irrelevant.

[Padraig]

1 hour ago, Heartofice said:

I'd say we are almost certainly being fed quite a bit of positive propaganda from Ukraine, and over time we will learn that the Ukrainians have committed some pretty appalling acts, as well as the Russians. This wouldn't be surprising at all, because it is a war, we shouldn't be idealist in what occurs in war, horrible things happen. 

This is fair.  But I think Werthead's point about the aggressor always being more liable to commit attrocities is key.  If Ukraine did invade the Crimea or cross the old Donbass "border", maybe it will end up reaching the scale of Russia's brutalities.  But in the current situation, it's implausible.

So yes, if "complexity" comes from the fact that Ukraine fails a purity test, then people need to try harder.  Reductive arguments will never win an argument.

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

There's probably also some criticism going to be made of Ukraine not recognising Crimea as Russian, since by some accounts the majority of the population of the Crimeans genuinely wanted to be part of Russia

Right.  I would find it very difficult to criticise Ukraine for this.  That seizure broke international law and given that Russia also seized part of the Donbass, there is no way Ukraine could be accomodating.  If Russia had actively tried to give back the Donbas and keep the Crimea, that would have been something, but its ambitions were always larger than that.

[Werthead]

17 minutes ago, Padraig said:

Right.  I would find it very difficult to criticise Ukraine for this.  That seizure broke international law and given that Russia also seized part of the Donbass, there is no way Ukraine could be accomodating.  If Russia had actively tried to give back the Donbas and keep the Crimea, that would have been something, but its ambitions were always larger than that.

I agree from a legal and moral perspective. I think criticisms would only come from the realpolitik POV, and only after a neutral vote had shown the majority of the population wanted to be Russian. Of course, after everything that's happened and eight years living under Russia, it would be ironic if such a fair vote (if it could be reliably run) showed a majority wanting to return to Ukrainian rule. That might not be a problem though, if Russia retains its lease on Sevastopol (which I believe was due to run until next century anyway).