The Selyse Baratheon Appreciation Thread

[Daendrew]

This is the first post in an ongoing biweekly 36-part series of Selyse Florent appreciation posts.

 

What do you like best about Selyse? Is it her 'stash or her style?

 

She may be a lady of few words; but when she speaks, people often do not listen.

 

"Let them die."

—Selyse said to Jon Snow, regarding the wildlings stuck at Hardhome

 

This quote shows judgment on her part, especially the part that judges.

 

Westeros' First Family shares the skill of judgment; in judging each other together.

 

Selves: No man may withstand him!*

Stannis: Be quiet, woman. You are not at a nightfire now.

—Selyse and Stannis Baratheon, regarding R'hllor

 

Selyse: Robert and Delena *defiled our bed and laid a curse upon our union. This boy is the foul fruit of their fornications. Lift his shadow from my womb and I will bear you many trueborn sons, I know it. He is only one boy, born of your brother's lust and my cousin's shame.

Stannis: He is mine own blood. Stop clutching me, woman.

—Selyse and Stannis Baratheon, regarding Edric Storm

 

Some in the fandom, namely me, call that passage The Clutch That Was Promised.

 

She was also the talk of the town when she had her good name besmirched by terrible propagandists.

 

You'd have to be a fool to want to bed Selyse Florent.

—Petyr Baelish to Pycelle

Jon Snow also had thoughts about the Baratheon's marriage bed.

 

There must have been a blizzard the day she and Stannis wed. Huddled beneath her ermine mantle and surrounded by her ladies, serving girls, and knights, the southron queen seemed a frail, pale, shrunken thing. A strained smile was frozen into place on her thin lips, but her eyes brimmed with reverence. She hates the cold but loves the flames. He had only to look at her to see that. A word fromMelisandre*, and she would walk into the fire willingly, embrace it like a lover.

—thoughts of Jon Snow

Our dear Selyse is not only the talk of the town about her marriage bed, but she has people measuring up their own anatomy in comparison to hers.

 

You lied about her beard. That one has more hair on her chin than I have between my legs.

—Val to Jon Snow

 

What do you dear readers love most about our dear Selyse? Inquiring minds want to know.

P.S. The Patchface incident is still too painful for me to read about. If you do write about our dear fool, please do it in euphemisms.

[frenin]

I find it very hard to like characters like Selyse or Lysa, those two seem pretty similar, because the awful far outweighs whatever bad and trauma they have suffered. Still, being married to Stannis for more than a decade will consume even the strongest wills.

Fot that i do appreciate her.

[EggBlue]

 Lysa and Selyse are somewhat similar. one's been driven to a total madness on account of her cold too old husband, multiple miscarriages and a childhood crush's manipulation ; while the other is driven to fanaticism due to her neglectful husband , her failed marriage and pregnancies as well as her abandonment on a grey dark island . I cannot like the characters, but I do feel sorry for them . I think these women could have been at least a little different , hadn't they been treated as such .    

[James Arryn]

7 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

 Lysa and Selyse are somewhat similar. one's been driven to a total madness on account of her cold too old husband, multiple miscarriages and a childhood crush's manipulation ; while the other is driven to fanaticism due to her neglectful husband , her failed marriage and pregnancies as well as her abandonment on a grey dark island . I cannot like the characters, but I do feel sorry for them . I think these women could have been at least a little different , hadn't they been treated as such .    

With Lysa we have evidence that she was always pretty egocentric and unstable, albeit much livelier, and in her marriage to Jon Arryn we read of more damage and broken trust done to him than any reverse. Her husband is pretty universally described as kind, thoughtful, nurturing, honourable, diligent and dutiful. His treatment of her is, fwwk, better than average for a noble marriage in a feudal society and she spent most of it living a life of privilege at the center of the King’s Court in KL. (Ie if Selyse’s Dragonstone abandonment is considered as a negative, living in the Hand’s Tower in the Red Keep with her husband must be considered as a positive.) 
 

With Selyse we have literally no information on her personality before marrying Stannis. I agree being married to Stannis would be a grim fate for anyone, but the fact is we have no idea how ‘different’ it made her because we have nothing to compare it with; possibly she was always a version of what she is now. 
 

 

[EggBlue]

1 hour ago, James Arryn said:

With Lysa we have evidence that she was always pretty egocentric and unstable, albeit much livelier, and in her marriage to Jon Arryn we read of more damage and broken trust done to him than any reverse. Her husband is pretty universally described as kind, thoughtful, nurturing, honourable, diligent and dutiful. His treatment of her is, fwwk, better than average for a noble marriage in a feudal society and she spent most of it living a life of privilege at the center of the King’s Court in KL. (Ie if Selyse’s Dragonstone abandonment is considered as a negative, living in the Hand’s Tower in the Red Keep with her husband must be considered as a positive.) 
 

Jon Arryn is believed to be a good kind man by Ned who also saw Robert as a decent match for his sister despite all his flaws . he is described as honorable though , honorable enough to brood a bit (according to the wiki I think) before marrying a "soiled" woman who could be her daughter just have his healthy heirs and get her dad's army . imagine what he must have felt after that damaged goods woman failed to give him plenty of heirs again and again and again?

1 hour ago, James Arryn said:

With Selyse we have literally no information on her personality before marrying Stannis. I agree being married to Stannis would be a grim fate for anyone, but the fact is we have no idea how ‘different’ it made her because we have nothing to compare it with; possibly she was always a version of what she is now. 

I don't think either Lysa or Selyse would be perfect or even decent people without that life , but they might not have gone to extremes as they did. 

[Canon Claude]

Marriage is a two-way street. Maybe Selyse was making Stannis miserable too. They definitely seem like they would bring out the worst in each other. Robert and Jon Arryn clearly screwed them over with this marriage.

[frenin]

4 hours ago, James Arryn said:

With Lysa we have evidence that she was always pretty egocentric and unstable, albeit much livelier, and in her marriage to Jon Arryn we read of more damage and broken trust done to him than any reverse.

There's absolutely nothing on young Lysa that reads as egocentric and unstable and we're pretty much told that old Jon resented Lysa for being soiled goods.

 

20 minutes ago, Canon Claude said:

Maybe Selyse was making Stannis miserable too.

Yeah, so far we can tell she was hella ugly.

 

Quote

“Your own wife begs as well, lord husband.” Queen Selyse went down on both knees before the king, hands clasped as if in prayer. “Robert and Delena defiled our bed and laid a curse upon our union. This boy is the foul fruit of their fornications. Lift his shadow from my womb and I will bear you many trueborn sons, I know it.” She threw her arms around his legs. “He is only one boy, born of your brother’s lust and my cousin’s shame.” “He is mine own blood. Stop clutching me, woman.” King Stannis put a hand on her shoulder, awkwardly untangling himself from her grasp. “Perhaps Robert did curse our marriage bed. He swore to me that he never meant to shame me, that he was drunk and never knew which bedchamber he entered that night. But does it matter? The boy was not at fault, whatever the truth.” Melisandre put her hand on the king’s arm. “The Lord of Light cherishes the innocent. There is no sacrifice more precious. From his king’s blood and his untainted fire, a dragon shall be born.”Stannis did not pull away from Melisandre’s touch as he had from his queen’s. The red woman was all Selyse was not; young, full-bodied, and strangely beautiful, with her heart-shaped face, coppery hair, and unearthly red eyes. “It would be a wondrous thing to see stone come to life,” he admitted, grudging. “And to mount a dragon … I remember the first time my father took me to court, Robert had to hold my hand. I could not have been older than four, which would have made him five or six. We agreed afterward that the king had been as noble as the dragons were fearsome.” Stannis snorted. “Years later, our father told us that Aerys had cut himself on the throne that morning, so his Hand had taken his place. It was Tywin Lannister who’d so impressed us.” His fingers touched the surface of the table, tracing a path lightly across the varnished hills. “Robert took the skulls down when he donned the crown,but he could not bear to have them destroyed. Dragon wings over Westeros … there would be such a …” “Your Grace!” Davos edged forward. “Might I speak?” Stannis closed his mouth so hard his teeth snapped.

 

That's the most noticeable difference between the treatment he reserves to his wife and his lover according to his own Hand of the King.

. It's also the reason he sleeps with one and avoids the other like pest. Which is funny because Stannis is never described as having his family's good looks unlike his brothers.

 

 

2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

Jon Arryn is believed to be a good kind man by Ned who also saw Robert as a decent match for his sister despite all his flaws . he is described as honorable though , honorable enough to brood a bit (according to the wiki I think) before marrying a "soiled" woman who could be her daughter just have his healthy heirs and get her dad's army . imagine what he must have felt after that damaged goods woman failed to give him plenty of heirs again and again and again?

I don't think that Ned was wrong or that old Jon is a bad person, except Lysa, the accounts we have about him are pretty positive, i just think the man was a man of his time and that means his attitude towards soiled goods would also be by the books. Whereas most people would see a younger and beautiful wife ready to love and be loved... a man of Jon's time could only see a common whore. Yeah, that wouldn't end well for anyone involved.

 

 

 

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, EggBlue said:

 Lysa and Selyse are somewhat similar. one's been driven to a total madness on account of her cold too old husband, multiple miscarriages and a childhood crush's manipulation ; while the other is driven to fanaticism due to her neglectful husband , her failed marriage and pregnancies as well as her abandonment on a grey dark island . I cannot like the characters, but I do feel sorry for them . I think these women could have been at least a little different , hadn't they been treated as such .    

There is no indication that Selyse was pregnant more than once. The weirdo sons in bottles was a silly show addition, as was the idea that Stannis was particularly obsessed with getting a son from Selyse.

I, personally, actually do like Selyse. She knows what she is due as queen and she demands it. She is also the one who cares for Shireen in the books. And, unlike Stannis, she actually wants their marriage to work. That is why she turns to the foreign priestess. She also seems to like the guy, giving signs of affection in front of other people while Stannis seems to be disgusted by his wife.

I actually do hope she comes to the fore and does something decisive in the wake of Jon's assassination and the report about Stannis' death.

[The Young Maester]

Being married to stannis must drive a person crazy.

One can blame the loveless marriage and the years of being treated like you were dirt by your own husband.

I love renlys qoute of how stannis goes to his wife’s bed as if he were marching to war. Also the fact that stannis wanted to outlaw brothels tells you how much he dislikes sex.

[Hugorfonics]

22 hours ago, Daendrew said:

Selyse: Robert and Delena *defiled our bed and laid a curse upon our union. This boy is the foul fruit of their fornications. Lift his shadow from my womb and I will bear you many trueborn sons, I know it. He is only one boy, born of your brother's lust and my cousin's shame.

Stannis: He is mine own blood. Stop clutching me, woman.

—Selyse and Stannis Baratheon, regarding Edric Storm

 

Some in the fandom, namely me, call that passage The Clutch That Was Promised.

As of now, we can add another name ser.

The clutch the was promised!

 

She's lots of fun. Really great quotes; Why if I had a show with such exciting characters, I'd put the bearded lady front and center.

[frenin]

1 hour ago, The Young Maester said:

Also the fact that stannis wanted to outlaw brothels tells you how much he dislikes sex.

He wasn't at all bothered by having foxy red headed Melisandre giving him some.

I'm more inclined to think that Stannis was a pretty superficial guy and women didn't find him appealing enough. 

[The Young Maester]

29 minutes ago, frenin said:

He wasn't at all bothered by having foxy red headed Melisandre giving him some.

I'm more inclined to think that Stannis was a pretty superficial guy and women didn't find him appealing enough. 

Maybe a nice redhead is all stannis needed so that he would use his pecker. 

[Lord Lannister]

3 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

Maybe a nice redhead is all stannis needed so that he would use his pecker. 

I always wondered how Stannis would've been if he had a wife that brought out the best in him instead of the worst as Selyse seems to.

That would take one hell of a woman though, so that could be too tall of an order.

[EggBlue]

17 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is no indication that Selyse was pregnant more than once. The weirdo sons in bottles was a silly show addition, as was the idea that Stannis was particularly obsessed with getting a son from Selyse.

I know that . failed pregnancies (I mean failed attempts and/or miscarriages ) is my own assumption. I just find it odd that Stannis never even tried to have kids. if he tried once in a while here and there just to get disappointed until , say , Shireen's disease , it makes more sense . after all , Shireen was born 3 years after their wedding , they must have tried enough for Stannis , who thanks to Red Mel we know is neither gay nor asexual, to get completely estranged and for Selyse to decide it's on Robert that they're cursed .

[EggBlue]

13 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

I love renlys qoute of how stannis goes to his wife’s bed as if he were marching to war. Also the fact that stannis wanted to outlaw brothels tells you how much he dislikes sex.

nah , Stannis is comfortable enough with Mel . I think , in his core, Stannis is just a jealous boy. he sure talks too much about his brothers and their flaws, maybe he envies their good looks , charisma and popularity ; things he lacks . he's lived all his life in Robert's shadow , while in fact , according to himself, he is much better than Robert. then Robert marries him to some ugly uninteresting girl . why can't Stann have the pretty ladies like Bob? but then it goes further , Bob sleeps on Stan's matrimony bed with some other Florent girl. so , what's so special about sleeping with a Florent girl on that bed on that night now? !  Stann just can't forget the insult.. 

[The Young Maester]

Stannis is similar to walder frey in a way that he sees imaginary slights in his head.

Selyse definitely reminded him of how Robert insulted him when he took delena to bed. Lol Robert was one dickhead of a brother.

[Lord Lannister]

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

Stann just can't forget the insult.. 

I can easily picture Stannis just grinding his teeth mumbling about Robert while Selyse is waiting for him in bed wondering why he can't get it up. 

[Lord Varys]

14 hours ago, The Young Maester said:

I love renlys qoute of how stannis goes to his wife’s bed as if he were marching to war. Also the fact that stannis wanted to outlaw brothels tells you how much he dislikes sex.

I don't think the brothel thing has anything to do with that. Stannis also punishes rapists quite severely, and he might simply view prostitution as a form of tolerated rape. After all, brothels in Westeros suck hard ... and the idea that prostitution is 'consensual sex' is not something folks in the real world agree upon, either.

Having a whoremonger king is actually not a good thing, never mind how 'sympathetic' Robert might be in other cases. It was very refreshing to see that most of the FaB Targaryen kings and princes neither had bastards nor were known as having the same character traits as Robert or Aegon IV.

9 hours ago, Lord Lannister said:

I always wondered how Stannis would've been if he had a wife that brought out the best in him instead of the worst as Selyse seems to.

That would take one hell of a woman though, so that could be too tall of an order.

I don't think Melisandre is even remotely in the category of a normal woman. She used all her skills to seduce Stannis, including her arousing powders, but Stannis really doesn't seem to like women much nor does he seem to be into physical contact. He isn't in love with Melisandre as far as we know (he isn't particularly distraught that Mel doesn't accompany him on his Northern campaign, for instance), and we can expect that the crucial part of their relationship is that Melisandre basically tells Stannis he is the savior of the world, the man she is going to do everything for, etc. That is the kind of thing a man like Stannis wants to hear ... or rather: intends to use to his advantage if it is coming from a powerful and attractive sorceress.

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

I know that . failed pregnancies (I mean failed attempts and/or miscarriages ) is my own assumption. I just find it odd that Stannis never even tried to have kids. if he tried once in a while here and there just to get disappointed until , say , Shireen's disease , it makes more sense . after all , Shireen was born 3 years after their wedding , they must have tried enough for Stannis , who thanks to Red Mel we know is neither gay nor asexual, to get completely estranged and for Selyse to decide it's on Robert that they're cursed .

I don't think there is any mystery to this. Selyse and Stannis's marriage never worked, but Stannis tried to do his duty as a husband in the beginning as most couples would. Eventually Selyse got pregnant and gave birth to Shireen and that was that - Stannis never really bothered trying to have another child with Selyse. And as a mere lord he didn't really have to.

I mean, he effectively dumped his wife and daughter on Dragonstone while he lived with Robert in KL. Selyse and Shireen only seemed to join him at court for special events, one expects, and we hear he only visited with them on the island.

Selyse certainly must know that the reason why they do not have more children is that they don't have sex ... but she doesn't want to deal with that truth. Instead, she looks for answers in superstition and religion, etc., just as Aelinor Penrose apparently prayed for a child rather than demanding that her husband, King Aerys I, actually share her bed and try to father a child on her.

That makes her look pitiful but it also indicates that she loves Stannis and wants their marriage to work and do her duty as his lawful wife - which is to give him children, especially sons, which he certainly needs now that he wants to be king.

[The Young Maester]

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't think the brothel thing has anything to do with that. Stannis also punishes rapists quite severely, and he might simply view prostitution as a form of tolerated rape. After all, brothels in Westeros suck hard ... and the idea that prostitution is 'consensual sex' is not something folks in the real world agree upon, either.

Having a whoremonger king is actually not a good thing, never mind how 'sympathetic' Robert might be in other cases. It was very refreshing to see that most of the FaB Targaryen kings and princes neither had bastards nor were known as having the same character traits as Robert or Aegon IV.

Yeah I can definitely see stannis thinking that way.

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

but Stannis really doesn't seem to like women much nor does he seem to be into physical contact.

I remember stannis interaction with alysanne were as if her presence bothers him. Definitely george trying to portray stannis as the opposite of Robert. If Robert was there he probably wouldve bedded alysanne before they arrived at crofters.

22 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Selyse certainly must know that the reason why they do not have more children is that they don't have sex ... but she doesn't want to deal with that truth. Instead, she looks for answers in superstition and religion, etc., just as Aelinor Penrose apparently prayed for a child rather than demanding that her husband, King Aerys I, actually share her bed and try to father a child on her.

That makes her look pitiful but it also indicates that she loves Stannis and wants their marriage to work and do her duty as his lawful wife - which is to give him children, especially sons, which he certainly needs now that he wants to be king.

Maybe she’s in denial that she isnt attractive enough for her husband. If stannis never comes to her bed it must’ve come across her mind that stannis dosent find her to his liking.

[Lord Varys]

10 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Yeah I can definitely see stannis thinking that way.

I remember stannis interaction with alysanne were as if her presence bothers him. Definitely george trying to portray stannis as the opposite of Robert. If Robert was there he probably wouldve bedded alysanne before they arrived at crofters.

When first reading the whole thing about Alysane and Asha picking up on Stannis' attitude towards women I was kind of annoyed that George didn't come up with something else ... but quite a few female readers pointed out that women actually do quickly realize it when men around them have issues with their presence or them being female, so that's that.

But I guess Robert would have been more interested in Asha than in Alysane - the latter is older and already (properly) married.

10 minutes ago, The Young Maester said:

Maybe she’s in denial that she isnt attractive enough for her husband. If stannis never comes to her bed it must’ve come across her mind that stannis dosent find her to his liking.

I guess it is part that she is denial about that, but also wants to find some other explanation why Stannis doesn't want to do his duty. I mean, this is still a dynastic marriage, not 'love' or 'romance' - and I'd correct myself there about saying that Selyse 'loves Stannis'. I guess it would make more sense that she likes him or is fond of him and tries to make the marriage work. There is no indication that she loves him in a romantic way.

As the wife of a great lord and subsequently the wife of a king Selyse's main duty is to play role of lady and queen - and the big thing there is to give her husband heirs.