Was Ser Hugh killed to be kept quiet or because The Mountain likes to kill?

[The Answer]

I'm listening to the GoT audio book so don't have the exact quotes, but I'm wondering your thoughts on if Ser Hugh was killed by Ser Gregor simply because he enjoys killing or because Cersei or Jaime wanted it done. 

We get a Sansa chapter where she learns how The Hound receieved his burns. The Hound indicates Ser Hugh's death was essentially for fun. His brother noticed the opening around Hugh's neck and aimed there to kill. 

The next chapter we have Ned speaking with Ser Barristan and Ned speculates to himself that it could have been a strategically placed lance to keep Ser Hugh permanently quiet concerning what he knew of Jon Arryn's discoveries.  

I know people die in tournaments, but this seems more likely incentivised by the Lannisters or to quench Gregor's thirst for blood. 

 

 

 

[Canon Claude]

Gregor probably just did it for fun. He’s not one for conspiracies and sneaky orders. He’s far too blunt of an instrument for that. It’s more about what his master intends. If Tywin wants someone to suffer, he turns the Mountain loose on them because he knows that’s the Mountain’s MO. 
As to the above question, I feel like it’s possible that someone arranged for the Mountain to face off against Ser Hugh specifically to silence Ser Hugh, but that’s still leaving a lot to chance.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

Cersei certainely wanted him dead and arranged for him to face the Mountain, she most likely knew that Gregor wouldn't even need instructions to do the deed due to how brutal and bloodthirsty he is.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

12 minutes ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Cersei certainely wanted him dead and arranged for him to face the Mountain, she most likely knew that Gregor wouldn't even need instructions to do the deed due to how brutal and bloodthirsty he is.

Why did Cersei want him dead if she had nothing to do with the death of Jon Arryn? Hugh's silencing protected his lady Lysa and Littlefinger. I don't think that Littlefinger had any levers to pull on the Mountain (it is interesting though that the lance breaks off in Hugh in the one chapter and then in the following chapter we have the description of the Giant's Lance in the Vale) but if he did it would have probably been intimating to the Mountain that the Lannisters would be grateful. I think it's as likely that he would have bribed the listmakers to put the Mountain and Hugh together and then trusted Ser Gregor's nature to take its course. 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

2 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Why did Cersei want him dead if she had nothing to do with the death of Jon Arryn? Hugh's silencing protected his lady Lysa and Littlefinger. I don't think that Littlefinger had any levers to pull on the Mountain (it is interesting though that the lance breaks off in Hugh in the one chapter and then in the following chapter we have the description of the Giant's Lance in the Vale) but if he did it would have probably been intimating to the Mountain that the Lannisters would be grateful. I think it's as likely that he would have bribed the listmakers to put the Mountain and Hugh together and then trusted Ser Gregor's nature to take its course. 

She had nothing to do with it because Littlefinger and Lysa did the deed for her and because she may have not known how close Jon was to the truth about her and her children at the time.

It's totally possible that after Jon's death she may have feared that Hugh knew enough and needed to be silenced, possibly because of Pycelle telling her about Jon Arryn knowing about her secret.

[Trigger Warning]

"Fool boy, he had no business riding in this company. No money, no squire, no one to help him with that armor. That gorget wasn’t fastened proper. You think Gregor didn’t notice that? You think Ser Gregor’s lance rode up by chance, do you?"

The Hound quote you mentioned.

The Mountain did it because he could. Hoping someone's armour isn't properly fitted isn't exactly the best way to go about assassinating someone. 

[Nevets]

Ser Hugh is a classic red herring, designed to lead the reader to a false conclusion: that the Lannisters killed Jon Arryn and Hugh knew something.  And it succeeded brilliantly.

Ser Hugh died because Gregor is a sadistic monster.  Pure coincidence, however convenient.  GRRM does like his convenient coincidences.

Ser Hugh could have saved Ned a lot of legwork tracing Arryn’s movements, but I doubt he would have known any real secrets.

[James Arryn]

15 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Cersei certainely wanted him dead and arranged for him to face the Mountain, she most likely knew that Gregor wouldn't even need instructions to do the deed due to how brutal and bloodthirsty he is.

It would also require knowing that Ser Hugh would leave an opening. Jousting is a deadly business in and of itself, which is why participants wouldn’t leave openings like that regardless of the disposition of their opponent. 
 

Two fully armoured warhorses and riders, when accounting for closing speed, hit one another with the ~ equivalent of being hit with a car at 40 mph, though less experienced riders will reduce that by wasting force through dislocation. Still, imagine a car at 40 mph….with a lance sticking out the front…hitting into you. It’s very deadly, and leaving an opening at a vital point in the general target area would be an incredibly dangerous mistake to make, so that’s the part that confuses me. Best explanations I can think of are Hugh was gifted that armour by a generous wannasay Lannister and was too rushed to notice or have his dressers notice the gap, or his dressers were in on the hit and left the opening on cue. 
 

Either that or GRRM cheekily invented the literal opposite of plot armour. 

[John Suburbs]

19 hours ago, The Answer said:

I'm listening to the GoT audio book so don't have the exact quotes, but I'm wondering your thoughts on if Ser Hugh was killed by Ser Gregor simply because he enjoys killing or because Cersei or Jaime wanted it done. 

We get a Sansa chapter where she learns how The Hound receieved his burns. The Hound indicates Ser Hugh's death was essentially for fun. His brother noticed the opening around Hugh's neck and aimed there to kill. 

The next chapter we have Ned speaking with Ser Barristan and Ned speculates to himself that it could have been a strategically placed lance to keep Ser Hugh permanently quiet concerning what he knew of Jon Arryn's discoveries.  

I know people die in tournaments, but this seems more likely incentivised by the Lannisters or to quench Gregor's thirst for blood. 

I still think it was Cersei. Even if she wasn't the one who killed Jon Arryn, she still had a motive to keep Ned from finding out what he was inquiring about.

[Lord Lannister]

21 hours ago, Terrorthatflapsinthenight9 said:

Cersei certainely wanted him dead and arranged for him to face the Mountain, she most likely knew that Gregor wouldn't even need instructions to do the deed due to how brutal and bloodthirsty he is.

I have to agree with this. It certainly fits in with how Cersei tried to manipulate Robert into participating in the melee and later arranging him to be drunk while hunting dangerous game. In AGoT she didn't seem to want to do the deed herself, but set people up to fail. 

[Hugorfonics]

On 5/5/2022 at 10:25 AM, John Suburbs said:

I still think it was Cersei. Even if she wasn't the one who killed Jon Arryn, she still had a motive to keep Ned from finding out what he was inquiring about.

Like what?

I'd think Cersei would be very interested in learning of Jon's murder.

 

Imo, It was all Petyr bribing the game master like Ser Snail did back when. It was also Petyr knowing Gregors skill vs Hugh's skill, or severe lack there of.

[Jaenara Belarys]

Both, prolly. It's a win-win for both Cersei and the Mountain. He gets to kill some guy, and Cersei can shut that uppity boy up permanently. 

[Nevets]

It's been 4 books and 2 years of story time since the guy died.  It's a bit late for any revelations about him or his death.  His apparent sole purpose was to lead Ned (and us) into believing the Lannisters were involved in Arryn’s death.  Over and done with. 

Cersei has no reason to know Hugh had any useful knowledge.  And there is the problem that relying on a poorly prepared suit of armor is a poor idea for an assassination.   The guy had succeeded in several earlier rounds.  Not everything is a well-planned conspiracy.  Some things are mere coincidence.  GRRM likes those too.

[Mordred]

On 5/4/2022 at 3:14 PM, The Answer said:

I'm listening to the GoT audio book so don't have the exact quotes, but I'm wondering your thoughts on if Ser Hugh was killed by Ser Gregor simply because he enjoys killing or because Cersei or Jaime wanted it done. 

We get a Sansa chapter where she learns how The Hound receieved his burns. The Hound indicates Ser Hugh's death was essentially for fun. His brother noticed the opening around Hugh's neck and aimed there to kill. 

The next chapter we have Ned speaking with Ser Barristan and Ned speculates to himself that it could have been a strategically placed lance to keep Ser Hugh permanently quiet concerning what he knew of Jon Arryn's discoveries.  

I know people die in tournaments, but this seems more likely incentivised by the Lannisters or to quench Gregor's thirst for blood. 

 

 

 

The Lannisters controlled the Mountain.  Had they known of the manner in which Jon Arryn was poisoned, they would have exposed Lysa and her boyfriend, LF.  Mountain did it because it is what he does.  Violence.  

[sifth]

Killing him off like that was a red herring by GRRM. In the moment, you're meant to think the Lannisters had The Mountain kill him off as a means of keeping him quiet, but the more the story goes on and the more you learn, it logically doesn't make sense.

[Lord Varys]

Both ideas do make sense. Sandor knows his brother's cruelty, but Cersei also does have a motive.

She wouldn't want to silence him because she murdered Jon Arryn (she didn't) but like Ned she may have suspected that Jon told his squire something he shouldn't know (twincest stuff). After all, Cersei also is afraid that Lysa knows something which is why she wanted young Robert to become Tywin's ward at Casterly Rock.

We should also consider that, according to Varys at least, Cersei planned to murder Robert via the tourney, so it would fit her modus operandi to use Gregor as an instrument there. Who knows? Perhaps she wanted to have Gregor to fight in the melée as well, dealing Robert a mortal blow in the fighting. Robert was a very big man, drunk or not, so you would need a pretty strong and determined man to kill him.

If this was actually Cersei's plan then Gregor is the best candidate there - I honestly cannot think of any other candidate. Sandor would likely not dare, Cersei's pets in the KG are even less likely to do something like that, and Cersei doesn't have any other lickspittles who are willing to slay a king.

There is always Jaime, of course. He would have done it ... but he would be an utter fool to become a kingslayer twice over.

[Hugorfonics]

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Both ideas do make sense. Sandor knows his brother's cruelty, but Cersei also does have a motive.

She wouldn't want to silence him because she murdered Jon Arryn (she didn't) but like Ned she may have suspected that Jon told his squire something he shouldn't know (twincest stuff). After all, Cersei also is afraid that Lysa knows something which is why she wanted young Robert to become Tywin's ward at Casterly Rock.

Sandor?

I thought Cersei wanted young Robert as a hostage against father Jon and uncle Ned. She thought Lysa knew something?

I'm pretty sure it's all LF convincing Ned to war on Lannister, because Lysa said that was the plan. And Hughs death clearly benefited that plan

1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

We should also consider that, according to Varys at least, Cersei planned to murder Robert via the tourney, so it would fit her modus operandi to use Gregor as an instrument there. Who knows? Perhaps she wanted to have Gregor to fight in the melée as well, dealing Robert a mortal blow in the fighting. Robert was a very big man, drunk or not, so you would need a pretty strong and determined man to kill him.

If this was actually Cersei's plan then Gregor is the best candidate there - I honestly cannot think of any other candidate. Sandor would likely not dare, Cersei's pets in the KG are even less likely to do something like that, and Cersei doesn't have any other lickspittles who are willing to slay a king.

There is always Jaime, of course. He would have done it ... but he would be an utter fool to become a kingslayer twice over.

I suppose if anyone had to take the shiv it'd be The Mountain that shivs, but I don't think anybody got specific instructions, aside from Lancel that is. That's Cerseis plan, just spike the wine and send the drunk into some death defying shit. Ned said he was drunk the night before and found him drinking beer and yelling at Lancel (who didn't want to fully armor him) and continuing to drink. As Cersei puts it, he practically killed himself

[SilverGhost]

Littlefinger knows that Ned dislikes and mistrusts the Lannisters, he pays off the master of the games so that Jon Arryn's former squire faces the Mountain and figures that things will take care of themselves. Maybe he pays someone to make a racket around the Mountain the night before to get the Mountain pissed off from a migraine (that the Mountain's men know about and might talk about while in their cups or with a whore). It's a Batman Gambit of putting an angry Mountain up against an inexperience Knight with no squire to assist in properly donning his armor at the very least the Mountain was going to hurt Ser Hugh and Ned was ready to believe anything awful about the Lannisters. 

[Aebram]

On 5/7/2022 at 4:34 AM, Mordred said:

The Lannisters controlled the Mountain.  Had they known of the manner in which Jon Arryn was poisoned, they would have exposed Lysa and her boyfriend, LF.

Hold a moment.  From Lysa's confession, we know that she  killed her husband, and that Littlefinger put her up to it; but we don't know why. My impression was that it must have been Cersei who asked Littlefinger to arrange it. I don't think Littlefinger or Lysa had any other reason to want Jon dead. Am I mistaken?

[Lord Varys]

On 5/7/2022 at 7:51 PM, Hugorfonics said:

I thought Cersei wanted young Robert as a hostage against father Jon and uncle Ned. She thought Lysa knew something?

She knew Jon had been investigating the parentage of her children and she feared that he may have told Lysa something about that.

On 5/7/2022 at 7:51 PM, Hugorfonics said:

I suppose if anyone had to take the shiv it'd be The Mountain that shivs, but I don't think anybody got specific instructions, aside from Lancel that is. That's Cerseis plan, just spike the wine and send the drunk into some death defying shit. Ned said he was drunk the night before and found him drinking beer and yelling at Lancel (who didn't want to fully armor him) and continuing to drink. As Cersei puts it, he practically killed himself

According to Varys, Cersei intended to murder Robert during the melée which is why she publicly forbid him to join the fighters, goading him into defying her and definitely participating. Ned felt that was improper for a king and dissuaded his old buddy, but we cannot rule out the possibility that Cersei had an actual plan how to kill Robert during the melée.

And Gregor would be the best candidate there since I don't see anybody else (aside from Jaime, who never indicates to have been privy to such a conspiracy) having the audacity or strength to try to do this.

And if he was Cersei's man for that, she could very well have also told him to murder somebody as unimportant as Hugh.

9 minutes ago, Aebram said:

Hold a moment.  From Lysa's confession, we know that she  killed her husband, and that Littlefinger put her up to it; but we don't know why. My impression was that it must have been Cersei who asked Littlefinger to arrange it. I don't think Littlefinger or Lysa had any other reason to want Jon dead. Am I mistaken?

We know why - Lysa went to Littlefinger for help because Jon had told her and Walder Frey at the nameday tourney that young Robert would go as ward to Stannis to live on Dragonstone. She wanted to prevent that. That she would kill for that is made pretty explicit in AGoT already when she threatens to kill Catelyn should she try to take her son from her - when Cat leaves the Eyrie she offers to make Robert a ward at Winterfell.

Littlefinger (and perhaps Lysa as well) know about the twincest which is why they decided that Lysa sent the letter to Cat implicating the Lannisters. They know the Lannisters have an even better motive to murder Jon.