New Peek at House of the Dragon

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Corvinus85 said:

He may have gotten corrupted by his wealth-induced power. After all, he eagerly helped Daemon carve out his Stepstones kingdom because the tolls the Triarchy was imposing on shipping was affecting his bottom line.

And it seems that from when Rhaenys was denied her inheritance at the Great Council of 101 he became more deeply involved in politics.

True enough. But him actually doing his best to make his wife queen - as he likely thought she would be one day when they married - and to ensure that his children got what he thought was their right isn't exactly the same thing as risking everything he has for Rhaenyra - who only his daughter-in-law.

Corlys didn't go to war for Rhaenys nor for Laenor, after all. Rhaenyra's case was certainly different, but the risk to lose the war wasn't larger in 129 AC than it was in 103 AC. After all, back then Corlys and Rhaenys were younger and the Velaryons controlled more and larger dragons than Viserys' faction.

[The Bard of Banefort]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

True enough. But him actually doing his best to make his wife queen - as he likely thought she would be one day when they married - and to ensure that his children got what he thought was their right isn't exactly the same thing as risking everything he has for Rhaenyra - who only his daughter-in-law.

Corlys didn't go to war for Rhaenys nor for Laenor, after all. Rhaenyra's case was certainly different, but the risk to lose the war wasn't larger in 129 AC than it was in 103 AC. After all, back then Corlys and Rhaenys were younger and the Velaryons controlled more and larger dragons than Viserys' faction.

Rhaenyra was the mother of three boys named “Velaryon” who were officially Corlys’ grandsons. Joffrey was still alive by the time Rhaenyra had him arrested. He was fighting to put a grandson on the Iron Throne, he just had to go through Rhaenyra to get there.

[Corvinus85]

11 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

True enough. But him actually doing his best to make his wife queen - as he likely thought she would be one day when they married - and to ensure that his children got what he thought was their right isn't exactly the same thing as risking everything he has for Rhaenyra - who only his daughter-in-law.

Corlys didn't go to war for Rhaenys nor for Laenor, after all. Rhaenyra's case was certainly different, but the risk to lose the war wasn't larger in 129 AC than it was in 103 AC. After all, back then Corlys and Rhaenys were younger and the Velaryons controlled more and larger dragons than Viserys' faction.

No, he went to war for his grandsons. 

Edit: Didn't see The Bard's post above. 

[Lord Varys]

2 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Rhaenyra was the mother of three boys named “Velaryon” who were officially Corlys’ grandsons. Joffrey was still alive by the time Rhaenyra had him arrested. He was fighting to put a grandson on the Iron Throne, he just had to go through Rhaenyra to get there.

Perhaps - but why the hell did he later insist upon that weirdo Aegon-Jaehaera match while Joffrey Velaryon was still alive and he was Rhaenyra's heir, not Aegon? Wasn't it pretty clear that if there was a peace treaty involving the Aegon-Jaehaera match that they would succeed Rhaenyra on the throne as a concession to the Greens?

And why not make matches for his own granddaughters? He had enough sway with the factions after Aegon II's death to try to marry Aegon III to Baela or Rhaena rather than Jaehaera.

If he wanted House Velaryon to get closer to the throne he completely failed at that despite the fact that he became on the regents.

[EggBlue]

36 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Perhaps - but why the hell did he later insist upon that weirdo Aegon-Jaehaera match while Joffrey Velaryon was still alive and he was Rhaenyra's heir, not Aegon? Wasn't it pretty clear that if there was a peace treaty involving the Aegon-Jaehaera match that they would succeed Rhaenyra on the throne as a concession to the Greens?

And why not make matches for his own granddaughters? He had enough sway with the factions after Aegon II's death to try to marry Aegon III to Baela or Rhaena rather than Jaehaera.

If he wanted House Velaryon to get closer to the throne he completely failed at that despite the fact that he became on the regents.

Joffrey was already betrothed to a Manderly . and Corlys didn't propose Aegon-Jaehaera match as a way of both sides get the IT. a marriage match was the only negotiable thing they had at that point . later on after Jefferey Velaryon's death , it seemed he just wanted peace and he wanted to see all his grandchildren and adopted grandchildren(this part's my assumption) to survive . hence , negotiating the way he could protect all his family rather than the most beneficial solution ( like marrying Rhaena to Aegon the elder) . 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

Joffrey was already betrothed to a Manderly .

Technically, yes. But Jacaerys had made that match when he was the Heir Apparent and when he thought Luke was still alive. Rhaenyra didn't arrange that, so there was room for negotiation there. I mean, what would the Manderlys do if political necessity called for a change in marriage politics. That kind of thing happens all the time when you talk betrothals.

But be that as it may, Corlys had nothing to do with the Joffrey's Manderly match, so if he wanted to arrange matches to make a peace why not involve his family rather than the branch of the family he was related to only very distantly - namely Rhaenyra's son by Daemon.

I mean, even if we pretend the Joffrey match was impossible, then why not offer a match between, say, Baela/Rhaena and Daeron Targaryen? Why talk about Princess Jaehaera at all, a girl who was missing at that time and not available to arrange anything.

Hell, Queen Helaena and Queen Alicent were right there, so why not offer them some kind of wedding? Corlys himself was recently widowed, he had two legitimized grandsons, one of them a dragonrider, and if you think about Larra-Viserys or Maegor-Ceryse (who was ten years older than her thirteen-year-old husband) then Helaena marrying Aegon III or Joffrey wasn't completely ridiculous, either.

Aegon-Jaehaera is just weird at that point and actually makes little sense. Folks should only start making matches for sullen Aegon when he is that last remaining son of Rhaenyra.

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

and Corlys didn't propose Aegon-Jaehaera match as a way of both sides get the IT. a marriage match was the only negotiable thing they had at that point .

Well, that's the thing. Why would he offer such a prestigious union (a marriage between the children of two monarchs who were both Targaryens on both sides) if he didn't consider the possibility that the Greens might agree to it since it might mean that Jaehaera could be queen and her son one day king?

It seems clear to me that Corlys made such a suggestion with the same thought in mind as he had later - that these two would be the joint heirs of Rhaenyra just as Aegon-Jaehaera were later to be the joint heirs of Aegon II.

1 hour ago, EggBlue said:

later on after Jefferey Velaryon's death , it seemed he just wanted peace and he wanted to see all his grandchildren and adopted grandchildren(this part's my assumption) to survive . hence , negotiating the way he could protect all his family rather than the most beneficial solution ( like marrying Rhaena to Aegon the elder) . 

Well, the idea to push Rhaena on Aegon II is something I didn't even think about. I guess that would have been the more obvious and better suggestion than the Aegon-Jaehaera idea. Aegon II may have been crippled, but he was still a young man and could have ruled for decades, however ineffectual he may have been. A blood tie between Aegon II and House Velaryon would have been more profitable for House Velaryon than what he pushed for.

Corlys' defense/support of Aegon III is also something that's rather weird. He isn't closely related to the boy at all, and there is no indication that they had some kind of meaningful bond. In fact, this is something the show should elaborate on, if they keep this whole subplot there. One could have young Aegon being very interested in the world and Corlys' voyages, and there could be scenes before traumas begin where Corlys tells the boy about his adventures and encourages him to follow in his footsteps. Something like that could help to establish why Corlys goes out of his way to protect and eventually crown Aegon III.

[Bael's Bastard]

It's important to remember that there isn't a single POV for any Dance of the Dragons characters. We don't know how they really thought of themselves or what they were really thinking about many things. We just have various sources. So the notion that anyone has these characters totally figured out is just nonsense. We won't know the routes HBO takes with these characters until we see it, but if they are well written and internally consistent it should work fine.

[Ran]

10 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

So the notion that anyone has these characters totally figured out is just nonsense.

Underscored, bolded, italicized, and embiggened just to sign on to this particular point. One of the reasons I'm much more sanguine about House of the Dragon vs. Game of Thrones is that GRRM has very explicitly left a lot of room for interpretation in the source material for the former. 

[Lord Varys]

Oh, the real problem is not so much that characters aren't clear ... them not being clear can mean that the writers go out of their way to ensure them and their actions do make sense.

Or they just don't bother with the weirder aspects of the outline, scrap it, and come up with plotlines of their own.

Being faithful to the source material here means you have to make it and the characters make sense - they don't do in the version we have. Or at least certain characters and certain actions do not.

[Colonel Green]

On 5/12/2022 at 2:05 PM, Lord Varys said:

Especially the beginning is dumb. 'What is this brief, mortal life if not the pursuit of legacy...'

Newsflash, Corlys, you didn't give a damn about 'legacy' for most of your life.

That's nonsense. There are many ways to build a legacy. Corlys made himself one of the most famous men in Westeros and greatly enriched his House by his seagoing exploits.

 

[Lord Varys]

5 minutes ago, Colonel Green said:

That's nonsense. There are many ways to build a legacy. Corlys made himself one of the most famous men in Westeros and greatly enriched his House by his seagoing exploits.

I think I made clear what I meant - Corlys' original desire was to see the world, he as an adventurer, an explorer, very much like Elissa Farman (who disappeared without a trace). Corlys knew that any of his great voyages could be his end, especially his mad search for a northern passage or his voyage to Asshai.

Most of his voyages were profitable, and the purpose of the last voyage was to make a gigantic profit, but it is clear from the character of the man that he wasn't a merchant or copper-counter at heart ... but a guy who always wanted to see what's beyond the horizon.

Of course, such people might also have some interest to know that they and their voyages make it into the history books - which you could call 'a legacy' if you want, but I'd call that fame or immortality - but that is not what drives them to do what they do.

Certainly, the older Corlys does have a wife and a family and he wants to hand over what he has to them. But that is clearly not what this man was about, ultimately (or perhaps originally). For the first half of his life he didn't care about Driftmark or the Iron Throne or the government of the Realm (and he could have played a part in all that as a Velaryon) - he just cared about his own selfish desires.

[EggBlue]

does anyone know which of HotD actors have read the books? (whether SoIaF or just FnB) 

[The Bard of Banefort]

52 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

does anyone know which of HotD actors have read the books? (whether SoIaF or just FnB) 

Man, it’s going to be so lame if the cast doesn’t read the source material this time. They only need to read a few chapters.

[Daeron the Daring]

I am yet to see myself, and I rather not be cut out of this thing, whatever it may turn out to be.

[Jaenara Belarys]

7 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Man, it’s going to be so lame if the cast doesn’t read the source material this time. They only need to read a few chapters.

This is known. 

[The Dragon Demands]

On 5/13/2022 at 8:35 AM, Ran said:

Underscored, bolded, italicized, and embiggened just to sign on to this particular point. One of the reasons I'm much more sanguine about House of the Dragon vs. Game of Thrones is that GRRM has very explicitly left a lot of room for interpretation in the source material for the former. 

This show will be nothing but Green propaganda if it objectively presents that Rhaenyra's sons with Laenor were actually bastards fathered by Harwin Strong. Because Rhaenyra didn't do it!

[Black of Hair and Heart]

19 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Man, it’s going to be so lame if the cast doesn’t read the source material this time. They only need to read a few chapters.

Actors aren't obligated to read source material. That's what scripts are for. 

[Sotan]

21 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Man, it’s going to be so lame if the cast doesn’t read the source material this time. They only need to read a few chapters.

Actors come at source material from a different perspective, some read it to understand their character more and others don't read it to avoid confusion. Lena Heady was a great example of someone who never read the source material and still killed it, especially in the early seasons. F&B isn't even a novel with fully realized characters, I get it if the actors decided to steer clear.

[The Bard of Banefort]

2 hours ago, Black of Hair and Heart said:

Actors aren't obligated to read source material. That's what scripts are for. 

Who said they were obligated? I said they were lame, that’s all. I can’t think of any other book-to-screen adaptation where most of the cast didn’t read the books except for GOT.

[The Bard of Banefort]

18 minutes ago, Sotan said:

Actors come at source material from a different perspective, some read it to understand their character more and others don't read it to avoid confusion. Lena Heady was a great example of someone who never read the source material and still killed it, especially in the early seasons. F&B isn't even a novel with fully realized characters, I get it if the actors decided to steer clear.

As someone who loves FnB, I think they’re missing out then