New Peek at House of the Dragon

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

I'm not sure it's fair at all to claim that Robb Stark inflicted "the same" horrors to the peasants of the West than Tywin did on the Riverlands. At all. The fact is that we never see Robb ordering raids primarily targeting common people.

You are right that many lords in Westeros consider the smallfolk of the enemy a legitimate target. But there are also many lords that do not. I don't think Martin depicts an scenario where "everyone is just as bad".

There'll always be bloodthirsty savages on any side, but none of them are people that we are supposed to sympathize with as readers. Instead, we got Doran Martell opposing Lady Nym's proposal to poison Myrcella, Tommen and even Joffrey (“The boy has never wronged us.”), and Arianne claiming she's no murderer of children (“Put that away. Myrcella is under my protection.").

And then there's Eddard Stark. He had his whole family gruesomely murdered by the Targaryens, and still preferred to resign as Hand before condoning a murder attempt on Daenerys.

And still, we never see Rhaenyra taking Syrax to the Stormlands to indiscriminately murder any innocent civilian as a retribution for Luke's death. And when Aegon III becomes king he doesn't have Oldown burned to avenge her mother.

What happened at Bitterbridge may not be something extraordinary, but it wasn't the norm either. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that good people just doesn't do that.

I think Tywin and Kevan are a lot more to blame than Robb.  Not only did they initiate aggression, they went for maximum cruelty from the outset.

I would certainly not believe that Robb would give orders for mass murder and mass rape, as Tywin did.

That said, there is plenty of evidence of atrocities carried out by Northern and Riverlands soldiers, and the reference to “paying back in kind” the West is pretty grim.  What I suspect is that Robb gave orders like “raid those villages, “punish collaborators”.  Some commanders interpret those as orders to pillage, and to hang serious offenders.  Others as orders to murder and rape, and hang young women who lay with lions.

[Corvinus85]

Robb Stark let his bannermen loose on the Westerlands and there are mentions of this lord or that lord raiding his way through different areas. Grief stricken Rickard Karstark no doubt plundered and pillaged everything in his path. Greatjon Umber is a bit of a wild man.

[Lord Varys]

6 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I'm not sure it's fair at all to claim that Robb Stark inflicted "the same" horrors to the peasants of the West than Tywin did on the Riverlands. At all. The fact is that we never see Robb ordering raids primarily targeting common people.

Eventually, the Northmen are also unpopular among the Riverlanders, but that seems to be mostly due to the behavior of Roose Bolton's levies, especially in the wake of the Bloody Mummers joining them. In addition things get fucked up when the Karstarks desert.

6 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

There'll always be bloodthirsty savages on any side, but none of them are people that we are supposed to sympathize with as readers. Instead, we got Doran Martell opposing Lady Nym's proposal to poison Myrcella, Tommen and even Joffrey (“The boy has never wronged us.”), and Arianne claiming she's no murderer of children (“Put that away. Myrcella is under my protection.").

Doran and Arianne and Ellaria are nice in this regard ... others are not. We have to wait and see there. Who seems to be looking forward to murder Cersei's children is Jon Connington.

[SeanF]

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Eventually, the Northmen are also unpopular among the Riverlanders, but that seems to be mostly due to the behavior of Roose Bolton's levies, especially in the wake of the Bloody Mummers joining them. In addition things get fucked up when the Karstarks desert.

Doran and Arianne and Ellaria are nice in this regard ... others are not. We have to wait and see there. Who seems to be looking forward to murder Cersei's children is Jon Connington.

Arianne is, at heart, a nice person, as indeed, was Robb.  The problem is that when you let slip the dogs of war, you empower the bloodthirsty savages.

That’s not an argument against waging war, necessarily, but it’s an argument against waging war lightly.

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, SeanF said:

Arianne is, at heart, a nice person, as indeed, was Robb.  The problem is that when you let slip the dogs of war, you empower the bloodthirsty savages.

That’s not an argument against waging war, necessarily, but it’s an argument against waging war lightly.

I think in context to the issue at hand we do get 'decent war behavior' from Ormund/Daeron as well - back at Longtable. There they gave the Merryweathers decent terms, no sack, no burnings, but raiding the countryside for provisions so the ever-growing army could march on without difficulty.

That's not nice to the local peasants as well, of course, but it isn't the kind of slaughter you get at Bitterbridge and subsequently Tumbleton.

[Lord Varys]

Anybody else heard about the leaked plot elements from HotD? No idea if they are genuine, @The Dragon Demands is making a video about that.

Spoiler

Namely it seems they will play with the idea that Aegon conquered Westeros because of a (seemingly) prophetic dream about the return of the Others, and this is a secret that's passed down in House Targaryen from king to heir (no idea how Aenys was able to inform Jaehaerys about this - I guess one could go with Alyssa passing it on to Jaehaerys since Aenys' original heir, Aegon the Uncrowned, was not on Dragonstone when his father died, so he may have told his wife so that she could in turn inform their son - alternatively Rhaena could be the source if Aenys told Aegon and Aegon told Rhaena before he went of to war against Maegor; another possibility is that Alysanne and Jaehaerys discovered old manuscripts written by Aegon I and his sisters during their early stay on Dragonstone - we do have that comment that they read on Valyrian scrolls and stuff in that time). When Aemma dies, Viserys is grief-stricken and searches for meaning in all of that while Daemon is just a cynic dismissing prophecy and stuff. When Rhaenyra is named Heir Apparent Viserys takes her to Balerion's skull and makes it clear that her first duty is to ensure Westeros will stay united forever to be able to defeat the Others.

I guess this is something that might come from George - assuming it is true. In the show universe any Targaryen specialness went down the toilet in the final season, of course, but not in the books.

And while historians either didn't know about this - or refused to put it down on paper - this is the kind of backstory Bloodraven and Bran could provide for us. We could see flashbacks of, say, Jaehaerys and Alysanne in the Winterfell godswood talking about the true destiny of House Targaryen. We could also see the Conqueror and his sister-wives talking about this. We might otherwise learn how Aerys II and Rhaella got ever more desperate when they had just one child because they knew/very much believed that they would be failing all their ancestors if House Targaryen died with Rhaegar.

It is also quite clear, one imagines, that Jaehaerys and Alysanne must have had thoughts about the far north and stuff after Alysanne's visit to the Wall. Gyldayn never touches on this thing again, but they did rule decades after that and eventually Jaehaerys I apparently also visted the Wall.

In context, I think, the Dance's outcome might sort of cut the Targaryens off from that tradition, since Aegon III may not have had a chance to talk to his mother about the true job of the Targaryen king. That could also explain the kind of weird priorities the kings after Aegon III - fucking around with Dorne, pious nonsense, gluttony and avarice, etc.

We would then assume that the information - or pieces of it - were rediscovered by Aerys I and Bloodraven, possibly even during the reign of Daeron II. In a sense it seems in the books we are going to learn that the the prophecy about the return of the dragons and the prophecy about the return of the Others/promised prince sort of blurred together because anyone who believes in the idea that the Targaryens will have to fight the Others one day would also believe that they would stand no chance without dragons - so they would have to come back somehow.

Now, in the books this whole complex must come up both when Daenerys' motivation to go to Westeros comes up as well as in Westeros as the return of the Others finally is revealed to an ever growing group of people - at this point Mel and Stannis already think in such categories, but the followers of Aegon should also start to think in those terms.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

9 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I guess this is something that might come from George - assuming it is true.

Given how involved GRRM supposedly is with HotD, there is no way something this major would make it in without his approval.

[Lord Varys]

9 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Given how involved GRRM supposedly is with HotD, there is no way something this major would make it in without his approval.

While it is interesting for ASoIaF and the connection to the future War for the Dawn, I cannot but find it unintentionally funny/ironic/silly considering how pitifully the Targaryens performed in the show universe. The only prophecy the show Targaryens deserve is a prophecy that makes it clear that they (are going to) suck.

But perhaps we can read this as a diversion from the show universe and, most especially, the final season.

[The Bard of Banefort]

45 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Anybody else heard about the leaked plot elements from HotD? No idea if they are genuine, @The Dragon Demands is making a video about that.

  Reveal hidden contents

Namely it seems they will play with the idea that Aegon conquered Westeros because of a (seemingly) prophetic dream about the return of the Others, and this is a secret that's passed down in House Targaryen from king to heir (no idea how Aenys was able to inform Jaehaerys about this - I guess one could go with Alyssa passing it on to Jaehaerys since Aenys' original heir, Aegon the Uncrowned, was not on Dragonstone when his father died, so he may have told his wife so that she could in turn inform their son - alternatively Rhaena could be the source if Aenys told Aegon and Aegon told Rhaena before he went of to war against Maegor; another possibility is that Alysanne and Jaehaerys discovered old manuscripts written by Aegon I and his sisters during their early stay on Dragonstone - we do have that comment that they read on Valyrian scrolls and stuff in that time). When Aemma dies, Viserys is grief-stricken and searches for meaning in all of that while Daemon is just a cynic dismissing prophecy and stuff. When Rhaenyra is named Heir Apparent Viserys takes her to Balerion's skull and makes it clear that her first duty is to ensure Westeros will stay united forever to be able to defeat the Others.

I guess this is something that might come from George - assuming it is true. In the show universe any Targaryen specialness went down the toilet in the final season, of course, but not in the books.

And while historians either didn't know about this - or refused to put it down on paper - this is the kind of backstory Bloodraven and Bran could provide for us. We could see flashbacks of, say, Jaehaerys and Alysanne in the Winterfell godswood talking about the true destiny of House Targaryen. We could also see the Conqueror and his sister-wives talking about this. We might otherwise learn how Aerys II and Rhaella got ever more desperate when they had just one child because they knew/very much believed that they would be failing all their ancestors if House Targaryen died with Rhaegar.

It is also quite clear, one imagines, that Jaehaerys and Alysanne must have had thoughts about the far north and stuff after Alysanne's visit to the Wall. Gyldayn never touches on this thing again, but they did rule decades after that and eventually Jaehaerys I apparently also visted the Wall.

In context, I think, the Dance's outcome might sort of cut the Targaryens off from that tradition, since Aegon III may not have had a chance to talk to his mother about the true job of the Targaryen king. That could also explain the kind of weird priorities the kings after Aegon III - fucking around with Dorne, pious nonsense, gluttony and avarice, etc.

We would then assume that the information - or pieces of it - were rediscovered by Aerys I and Bloodraven, possibly even during the reign of Daeron II. In a sense it seems in the books we are going to learn that the the prophecy about the return of the dragons and the prophecy about the return of the Others/promised prince sort of blurred together because anyone who believes in the idea that the Targaryens will have to fight the Others one day would also believe that they would stand no chance without dragons - so they would have to come back somehow.

Now, in the books this whole complex must come up both when Daenerys' motivation to go to Westeros comes up as well as in Westeros as the return of the Others finally is revealed to an ever growing group of people - at this point Mel and Stannis already think in such categories, but the followers of Aegon should also start to think in those terms.

This seems like an odd choice, seeing as the Walkers were defeated by Ninja Stark, who was back in Winterfell before Jon started rallying forces in S7. Of the two Targs present for the Battle of Winterfell, one fell off her dragon while the other yelled at another one. Sounds like a bogus prophecy.

Also, what’s the source for this rumor?

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

14 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Also, what’s the source for this rumor?

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

2 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

 

But who’s his source? Is DD known for leaking show details?

[Lord Varys]

3 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

But who’s his source? Is DD known for leaking show details?

I don't know - could be bogus. Just wanted to mention it.

In addition,

Spoiler

it may be that the great royal hunt we are going to get is a part of a test for Aegon the Elder - he is supposed to slay a white stag because Viserys considers changing the succession in his favor but he will fail.

 

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

10 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

But who’s his source? Is DD known for leaking show details?

I heard that the show is based on some book series. Maybe the author said something to him?

Edit: Oh, you meant @The Dragon Demands. I thought you were joking about GRRM's source. 

[SeanF]

42 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't know - could be bogus. Just wanted to mention it.

In addition,

  Reveal hidden contents

it may be that the great royal hunt we are going to get is a part of a test for Aegon the Elder - he is supposed to slay a white stag because Viserys considers changing the succession in his favor but he will fail.

 

It’s always seemed obvious to me that both Dany and Jon will be absolutely crucial to defeating the Others.  Some people get so obsessed with the idea of “subverting expectations” that they try to deny this, but they really are the two most important characters in the tale.

None of that means that either character will get a happy ending, of course.

[The Bard of Banefort]

36 minutes ago, SeanF said:

It’s always seemed obvious to me that both Dany and Jon will be absolutely crucial to defeating the Others.  Some people get so obsessed with the idea of “subverting expectations” that they try to deny this, but they really are the two most important characters in the tale.

None of that means that either character will get a happy ending, of course.

I think that whatever the resolution George has planned for the Others is, it’s not the sort of thing that makes for good television. The Night King first appeared in S4, which I think was after GRRM gave D&D the full outline, and we know there’s no appointed WW leader in the books. Maybe there’s some kind of pact or magical sacrifice. GRRM really hasn’t given us much to go off of yet.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

46 minutes ago, SeanF said:

It’s always seemed obvious to me that both Dany and Jon will be absolutely crucial to defeating the Others.  Some people get so obsessed with the idea of “subverting expectations” that they try to deny this, but they really are the two most important characters in the tale.

I have a feeling that George didn't give D&D enough details on the fight against the Others, which allowed them do what they did with Arya. Maybe he hasn't quite figured it all out himself?

[SeanF]

16 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I think that whatever the resolution George has planned for the Others is, it’s not the sort of thing that makes for good television. The Night King first appeared in S4, which I think was after GRRM gave D&D the full outline, and we know there’s no appointed WW leader in the books. Maybe there’s some kind of pact or magical sacrifice. GRRM really hasn’t given us much to go off of yet.

The Others are Tad Williams’ Norns, pretty much.  I expect that the resolution of the Norns’ conflict with men will be similar to that of the Others.

[Lord Varys]

52 minutes ago, SeanF said:

It’s always seemed obvious to me that both Dany and Jon will be absolutely crucial to defeating the Others.  Some people get so obsessed with the idea of “subverting expectations” that they try to deny this, but they really are the two most important characters in the tale.

None of that means that either character will get a happy ending, of course.

That is obviously the case. I mean, one of the show guys even said that George told them during the production process of the first season that 'everything is about Jon and Daenerys', something that surprised this person since Jon didn't seemed to a central character to them at that time.

At this point 'expectations' are still that other characters are the real deal - Jon's true parentage has yet to be revealed, Daenerys is female and thus no 'promised prince', etc.

I've a feeling (or the hope) that House Targaryen will continue even if Jon and Dany were to die - either by way of their magical love child or by way of a child of Aegon's.

But, of course, either or both of them playing a big role in the final battle against would also justify the historical/magical importance of House Targaryen ... if the house ended with them. But the way it went in the show the Targaryens weren't particularly important as a dynasty.

30 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I have a feeling that George didn't give D&D enough details on the fight against the Others, which allowed them do what they did with Arya. Maybe he hasn't quite figured it all out himself?

He may not have figured out many of the plot details yet ... but the general role of both Dany and Jon for the conclusion of the story should be clear. In fact, George should have known about their eventual role in the finale when he first invented those characters.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

45 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The Others are Tad Williams’ Norns, pretty much.  I expect that the resolution of the Norns’ conflict with men will be similar to that of the Others.

I really hope not, because that would be plagiarism. 

[Lord Varys]

21 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I really hope not, because that would be plagiarism. 

The idea is more that the power behind the Others - the power who implemented that plan - is more or less motivated by a similar hatred as the Norn Queen from Osten Ard. Somebody who remembers the original war between First Men and Children ... and how often and how quickly the short-lived First Men forgot the solemn promises and the pacts they made.

I don't think the good guys will just have to kill individual Others and wights - they must get to the heart of the matter - the Heart of Winter - and whatever is there is not going to some Lich King guy but more likely a twisted, forever frozen Child greenseer or something along those lines.