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I’m actually kind of bummed that they’re doing the entire lead-up to the Dance in one season. That’s the part of the story I found most interesting. I wish they at least gave it two seasons—maybe go up to Jace’s birth/Daemon’s marriage to Laena in the first season, then start with Laena/Laenor’s deaths at the beginning of season two with the older actors. I don’t know how they’re going to fit in Rhaenyra’s relationships with Criston/Laenor/Harwin/Daemon all in one season (along with the births of five children, at least one of whom will be close to adulthood by the end of the first season) in one season. 

I’m also curious how they’ll manage to not make Viserys and Alicent’s marriage seem creepy now that they widened the age gap between them so much.

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3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I’m actually kind of bummed that they’re doing the entire lead-up to the Dance in one season. That’s the part of the story I found most interesting. I wish they at least gave it two seasons—maybe go up to Jace’s birth/Daemon’s marriage to Laena in the first season, then start with Laena/Laenor’s deaths at the beginning of season two with the older actors. I don’t know how they’re going to fit in Rhaenyra’s relationships with Criston/Laenor/Harwin/Daemon all in one season (along with the births of five children, at least one of whom will be close to adulthood by the end of the first season) in one season. 

I’m also curious how they’ll manage to not make Viserys and Alicent’s marriage seem creepy now that they widened the age gap between them so much.

It doesn't have to suck if they have all in one season ... but it could have been much better if it had been two seasons.

And I do agree - the Dance as such is pretty boring or has to be changed completely. They won't have Aegon II hiding under a rock for a year, Daemon is not going to sit on his hands at Harrenhal for a year, etc.

Not to mention that there are no proper arcs in the Dance, no meaningful character development aside from, perhaps, the effect Nettles has on Daemon.

They will either have to change things drastically, or most of the stuff is not going to work. I mean, Rhaenyra and Criston don't even meet each other during the actual war. Aegon and Rhaenyra only meet when she is killed, Alicent is pretty much out of the political game once her father is sacked, ditto Otto himself. Rhaena and Baela are effectively dayfly characters, popping up for one big scene to disappear again.

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I was thinking about how they might portray Rhaenyra and Criston's relationship in the show, based on what we know so far. There aren't many leaks, but it does sound like they are going to have some kind of romantic relationship early on. (One noteworthy thing about FnB is that neither Mushroom nor Eustace claim the two ever consummate their love. In both versions, one tries to seduce the other and is spurned). The audition script for Criston Cole, which was taken straight from a conversation between Arianne and Arys in AFFC, would indicate that they're leaning more towards Mushroom's version, with Rhaenyra being the seductress and Criston being torn about betraying his vows. That said, I don't know how they could sell the idea of a teenage girl being the temptress to a much older man to a modern audience (and I think he probably is supposed to be much older than her, since they only used one actor for both timelines).

When George announced the casting on his blog, he said this about Criston Cole:

Quote

He is the common-born son of the steward to the Lord of Blackhaven.   He has no claim to lands or titles, all he has is his honor and his skill with sword and lance.

He is a challenger, a champion, cheered by the commons, beloved of the ladies.

He is a lover (or is he?), a seducer (or is he?), a betrayer (or is he?), a breaker of hearts and a maker of kings.

Obviously George is being coy here, but he also plants the idea that Criston will be doing the seducing here (as I mentioned above, FnB insists that if he did try to seduce Rhaenyra, he failed). "Breaker of hearts" could be a reference to good looks, or it could imply that he turns on Rhaenyra. One possibility that occurred to me before is that maybe they will be lovers and that Rhaenyra will want to continue their affair after her marriage to Laenor, which will offend Criston's pride. Anyway, just some speculation.

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7 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I was thinking about how they might portray Rhaenyra and Criston's relationship in the show, based on what we know so far. There aren't many leaks, but it does sound like they are going to have some kind of romantic relationship early on. (One noteworthy thing about FnB is that neither Mushroom nor Eustace claim the two ever consummate their love. In both versions, one tries to seduce the other and is spurned). The audition script for Criston Cole, which was taken straight from a conversation between Arianne and Arys in AFFC, would indicate that they're leaning more towards Mushroom's version, with Rhaenyra being the seductress and Criston being torn about betraying his vows. That said, I don't know how they could sell the idea of a teenage girl being the temptress to a much older man to a modern audience (and I think he probably is supposed to be much older than her, since they only used one actor for both timelines).

When George announced the casting on his blog, he said this about Criston Cole:

Obviously George is being coy here, but he also plants the idea that Criston will be doing the seducing here (as I mentioned above, FnB insists that if he did try to seduce Rhaenyra, he failed). "Breaker of hearts" could be a reference to good looks, or it could imply that he turns on Rhaenyra. One possibility that occurred to me before is that maybe they will be lovers and that Rhaenyra will want to continue their affair after her marriage to Laenor, which will offend Criston's pride. Anyway, just some speculation.

I think we are going to see some kind of early love triangle situations with Rhaenyra and Alicent both vying for the attention and affection of the same way - playfully in the beginning, of course, but in a much changed manner after Rhaenyra is Heir Apparent and Alicent the new queen (which certainly could be interpreted by Rhaenyra as Alicent trying to 'steal' her father('s affection) from her).

I originally thought that they might be vying for Daemon's attention - but it could just as well be Criston's.

And to be sure - Rhaenyra-Criston makes more sense if something meaningful happened there. Great writing could make it into a romance that never went beyond kisses ... but I doubt we are going to get that.

An affair does make sense if they are both very much into each other and their passion overwrites or dominates their political (or common) sense.

It could make for a really great story to see them being dragged back into reality when the Small Council discusses and the king eventually decides who Rhaenyra is going to marry. That's when Rhaenyra is going to think about what she actually wants, and it will also be the moment when Criston will have to come to terms with the idea that Rhaenyra might marry a husband who isn't ... Criston Cole.

They could also play around with Rhaenyra considering different options herself if they truly do this 'Viserys considers changing the succession in favor of Aegon' plotline. That would have freed Rhaenyra for a different life, a life where living with Criston Cole would have been a real possibility (perhaps not marriage but him living with her as bodyguard-paramour).

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truth is they can do almost anything and it'll be canonical . speaking of romance though , I do wish HOTD's romantic relationships be actually ... romantic! of course there are many many complicated opportunistic relationships in F&B but there is also the chance to depict some of them as relationships about feelings rather than only sex and power. in my humble opinion that'll make the Dance that follows more tragic and thus , more interesting.  in GoT , even the supposed romances - Dany/Jon -Jaimie/Cersei - Robb/Talissa-...) felt more physical than emotional. ironically the most emotional relationship portrayed in GoT was Ned/Cat's which had zero sex scenes! although , I think that was more about actress's display of Catelyn's pain after her husband dies:) 

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On 6/23/2022 at 12:28 AM, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

I don't know how to feel about this look. Sure, it looks cool, but it almost seems like she is in Lannister colours.

It's actually pretty cool when you look at the fashion details for Young Rhaenyra's dress in the trailer. Her necklace has a large dragon and smaller images of a rose, lion, trout, stag, direwolf, kraken, falcon, and sun, so they seem to be going for the idea that she is representing all of Westeros rather than House Targaryen specifically.

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On 7/5/2022 at 4:58 PM, Vaith said:

It's actually pretty cool when you look at the fashion details for Young Rhaenyra's dress in the trailer. Her necklace has a large dragon and smaller images of a rose, lion, trout, stag, direwolf, kraken, falcon, and sun, so they seem to be going for the idea that she is representing all of Westeros rather than House Targaryen specifically.

Does that mean that they will skip the blacks vs greens thing?

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15 minutes ago, Takiedevushkikakzvezdy said:

Does that mean that they will skip the blacks vs greens thing?

Well, I assume this is right in episode 1 as she was wearing that dress when the lords were swearing their oaths, so the split should not exist yet. There are promotional pictures of older Alicent and Rhaenyra wearing green vs black and red, though

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On 5/22/2022 at 12:14 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

I’ve always favored “gold shall be their crowns” as a reference to hair, but I’m wondering now if we’ll get a Queen Myrcella between Tommen and Aegon. If both Rhaenyra and Dany are deposed because “bitches be crazy,” then having a clever young queen with lots of potential who is deposed by Aegon (probably through JonCon’s brutality) could soften the blow a bit. She would be a queen who didn’t go mad, but lost because of the cruelty of men. And it would make Aegon more morally grey. 

For me, the "gold shall be their crowns" is a double entendre referring both to their hair and to literal crowns.

I do think we are getting a Queen Myrcella. But as @Lord Varys points out, I don't think she'd be queen for long. A lot like Lady Jane Grey (who was queen for a short time after sickly, sweet Edward and before Bloody Mary)

One of my pet theories is that Myrcella and Cersei don't get along at all. Myrcella is much smarter than most (readers and characters alike) realize and I think the TV show had the right of it when they had Myrcella reveal that she had figured out the twincest. Myrcella also happens to be a lot more dignified and assertive than people realize either.

Yeah, so one of my pet theories for Winds is that Myrcella and Cersei are having the classic mother/daughter tug-of-war. Except Myrcella is the one who yields/surrenders the city to Aegon when the writing is on the walls. In a way, she'd be the younger, more beautiful queen. Cersei would snap and kill Myrcella (most likely on accident) before or after fleeing the city.

On 5/22/2022 at 12:41 PM, Lord Varys said:

But then she could also become Aegon's first queen consort as the obvious way to soften things and prevent a siege/sack of the city would be to hand over the throne to Aegon in exchange for him marrying Queen Myrcella.

No.

No way.

Team Aegon is not going to want Aegon (who as far as they are concerned is a trueborn Targaryen and the rightful king of Westeros) to wed a Lannister bastard born of incest who has been masquerading as the daughter of a Baratheon usurper for almost ten years.

Besides, making Myrcella the queen consort of Aegon would be like inviting a rabid dog into your bed. Because where Myrcella will be, Cersei will not be far.

It'd be a stroke of ironic genius anyway for Arianne to go from wanting make Myrcella queen to actively trying to displace her so that she herself can be queen. 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

One of my pet theories is that Myrcella and Cersei don't get along at all. Myrcella is much smarter than most (readers and characters alike) realize and I think the TV show had the right of it when they had Myrcella reveal that she had figured out the twincest. Myrcella also happens to be a lot more dignified and assertive than people realize either.

Yeah, so one of my pet theories for Winds is that Myrcella and Cersei are having the classic mother/daughter tug-of-war. Except Myrcella is the one who yields/surrenders the city to Aegon when the writing is on the walls. In a way, she'd be the younger, more beautiful queen. Cersei would snap and kill Myrcella (most likely on accident) before or after fleeing the city.

That would be a scenario for an older Myrcella who isn't disfigured. She is older than Tommen but still only ten.

I can see her and Cersei not getting along - although Cersei is likely going to pity her for the disfigurement, burning with rage and a desire for revenge, especially if/after she figures what actually happened - but not an actual quarrel. A ten-year-old girl can be smart, but not actually exert any power in this world.

2 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

No.

No way.

Team Aegon is not going to want Aegon (who as far as they are concerned is a trueborn Targaryen and the rightful king of Westeros) to wed a Lannister bastard born of incest who has been masquerading as the daughter of a Baratheon usurper for almost ten years.

They will do what's convenient for their cause. And having a Baratheon girl as a queen to strengthen Aegon's claim is better than having no such support. Regardless whether she is the real deal or not.

And don't assume all of Aegon's followers actually believe he is Rhaegar's son. Some do, other don't. That doesn't matter all that much.

It could be exactly the same kind of charade Roose plays with Ramsay and Jeyne. That also worked to a point.

2 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Besides, making Myrcella the queen consort of Aegon would be like inviting a rabid dog into your bed. Because where Myrcella will be, Cersei will not be far.

Cersei could already be gone at that point (in 'fled the city' not 'dead'). Or we have the scenario where Myrcella never reaches KL but is captured by the Golden Company and married to Aegon at Storm's End when he publicly declares himself. This would inevitably strengthen his position against Tommen, especially if Myrcella were to publicly denounce her brother as a pretender, insisting that Rhaegar's son is the rightful king.

But of course - I imagine this whole thing as a cynical charade Aegon's followers will only play as long as they have to. Once Aegon sits (seemingly) securely on the throne, Queen Myrcella will end like Queen Helaena and Queen Jaehaera ... and Aegon will be free for Arianne, Sansa, or Daenerys.

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15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

A ten-year-old girl can be smart, but not actually exert any power in this world.

Arya would like to have a word with you in that alley over there. Especially since wildlings, Dornishmen and everyone in between is going to be prostrating themselves before a crippled ten-year-old boy with creepy psychic powers.

On a more serious note, a ten-year-old girl can actually exert power if she sits the Iron Throne as the reigning Lady of the Seven Kingdoms. People will listen to her.

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

That would be a scenario for an older Myrcella who isn't disfigured. She is older than Tommen but still only ten.

I can see her and Cersei not getting along - although Cersei is likely going to pity her for the disfigurement, burning with rage and a desire for revenge, especially if/after she figures what actually happened - but not an actual quarrel.

I think Myrcella, unlike Tommen, is going to challenge Cersei every step of the way and won't be so easily cowed. She seems to be situated right in between Joffrey and Tommen: willful like Joffrey but kind like Tommen.

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

They will do what's convenient for their cause. And having a Baratheon girl as a queen to strengthen Aegon's claim is better than having no such support. Regardless whether she is the real deal or not.

And don't assume all of Aegon's followers actually believe he is Rhaegar's son. Some do, other don't. That doesn't matter all that much.

It could be exactly the same kind of charade Roose plays with Ramsay and Jeyne. That also worked to a point.

Really? I thought Myrcella is the same age as Arya.

In any case, making a Lannister bastard who is pretending to be a Baratheon your wife and queen is not convenient to anyone's cause.

It invites disaster.

Which makes sense. Between JonCon the ticking time bomb, over-trusting Tyrion, the behavior of the Golden Company, having any sort of working relationship with the Sand Snakes and not telling Daenerys anything, Team Aegon is developing a trend of inviting disaster.

If Aegon makes Myrcella his queen, all I'm going to say is "keep on digging, Team Aegon. Keep digging."

15 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Cersei could already be gone at that point (in 'fled the city' not 'dead'). Or we have the scenario where Myrcella never reaches KL but is captured by the Golden Company and married to Aegon at Storm's End when he publicly declares himself. This would inevitably strengthen his position against Tommen, especially if Myrcella were to publicly denounce her brother as a pretender, insisting that Rhaegar's son is the rightful king.

But of course - I imagine this whole thing as a cynical charade Aegon's followers will only play as long as they have to. Once Aegon sits (seemingly) securely on the throne, Queen Myrcella will end like Queen Helaena and Queen Jaehaera ... and Aegon will be free for Arianne, Sansa, or Daenerys.

The second scenario is more likely. Sick and twisted...but more likely. Mistreating Queen Myrcella would, once again, invite disaster.

Because I can't imagine any scenario where Cersei would willfully separate herself from Myrcella and leave her at the mercies of #TeamInvitingDisaster. Especially considering that Myrcella would be her last remaining child.

On 5/25/2022 at 8:56 AM, Lord Varys said:

It is not just that - it is also Aegon as a lie Daenerys will slay as the Slayer of Lies. This certainly doesn't mean Aegon will be a Euron-style villain ... but it certainly could mean that he and his movement won't be helpful in the fight against the Others, doing more harm to Westeros than good.

I mean, Aegon is basically Varys' project, his arc will be about the question whether Varys' plan to create and groom the ideal king from birth is going to be a good idea or not. And while I don't exactly want Varys to fail, I think this plan does have severe flaws. Varys may have kind of modelled his Aegon on Egg ... but only kind of. The boy lived a sheltered and protected life as far as we know. He was always surrounded by friends and people who cared for him. He was never in any real danger, never actually lived a life on the streets or learned how the poor people of Westeros actually lived. Also, the people caring for him seem to have told him from very early on that he was actually a prince destined to be king one day - something Egg never actually believed. He is Aegon the Unlikely, and that he would be king one day may have been something that only became a real possibility in 233 AC when his father died unexpectedly.

All that could indicate that Varys' Aegon is not going to be an understanding or kind or dutiful king ... but rather an entitled king, a king who thinks he is destined to get whatever the hell he wants.

Add to that the lesson about paranoia/mistrust Tyrion taught Aegon, the fact that Jon Connington is slowly dying of greyscale which will cause him to act more and more reckless and, one assumes, also more and ruthless when dealing with real or imagined obstacles. In addition, Connington could infect Aegon himself and/or bring a pandemic of the grey plague to Westeros. Even if Aegon and his people were then implementing effective measure to stop or slow down the plague, it should sure as hell blacken his reputation.

Also, Aegon will have to face powerful and cruel enemies of his own long before Daenerys even moves west. Euron and Cersei and Littlefinger and Stannis are not going to melt away just so he can shine and sparkle.

My personal guess is that the big twist about Varys is going to be that circumstances will force him to eventually turn against Aegon, possibly even putting him down for 'the good of the Realm', and that might be the toughest decision for him to make, because Illyrio is likely not going to follow him there. I certainly could see Varys belatedly join Daenerys, realizing that true monarch/leader cannot be created through manipulation but only if a good person actually wants to do the job and life allows him/her to live out his/her potential, etc.

Basically, if you want to put your money on who is going to be 'the evil Targaryen' in ASoIaF then my money would be more on Aegon than on Daenerys. She might end up being tragic figure, anyway, but she is not going to be the show nutcase.

I can still only see her going to die in connection with the plot about the Others, not in a political murder taking place after the Others are defeated. There is not going to be much to do after the Others are dealt with, and pretty much no one would defy or think about defying a leader of the coalition who defeated them. One could see Euron/Cersei and some of their lackeys trying to resist or attack the good guys ... but they would not have enough strength to actually take an entire city hostage.

@The Bard of Banefort had the right of it when she said that Aegon has to be popular. If not, then why bother with another Aegon. If Aegon is going to be an unpopular, mean-spirited snowflake, then why bother? You could've skipped the whole Aegon thing and left Cersei in power. Or you could've waved a magic wand and made it so that Stannis or Euron seized the Iron Throne.

However, the fact remains that "popular ≠ good." Something can be popular and well-built but still be bad news. Which is a good lesson that the whole world desperately needs to learn right now.

Aegon can be popular and charming and hip or whatever. But neither he nor his administration are capable of defending the realm from the Others. In fact, there are some members in his group (chiefly Varys) who despise magic and religion so much that they would actively try to silence anyone who speaks of the Others. Plus, then there's Dany who is the second most overtly-magical character in the entire series (Bran is the first). The mere fact that Dany is embraces and utilizes magic and religion speaks volumes makes her an patent enemy of Varys.

There's a trope on TVTropes.com that talks about this kind of anti-villain. Some kind and popular and handsome but that is still obviously bad news.

But I agree. If there is going to be an "evil Targaryen" of the series, then is going to have to be Aegon. But frankly, I think he's a Blackfyre so it's a moot point.

 

I disagree though. I think the Lannister-Greyjoy coalition would be more than capable of taking an entire city hostage. But only if 1) everyone else is busy somewhere else, 2) if the city is weakened which it will be...it'll be the worst winter in almost ten thousand years and 3) if said city is being controlled by people who don't really know what they are doing.

 

The thing with Aegon is that he might have charm and the theoretical know-how (which I doubt because resident scholar Tyrion was very unimpressed with Aegon) but he lacks the practical skills, the patience/temperament, and the real-world experience that Dany, Jon or even Bran possess.

This deep lack of experience and knowledge combined with his entitlement and status of adulthood would be a recipe for disaster in normal times. In extraordinary times such as the Second Long Night, having a leader like that be painful and prolonged suicide.

On 5/25/2022 at 1:54 PM, The Bard of Banefort said:

The vision of the mummer’s dragon leads me to believe that Aegon will be very popular. The Undying may have told Dany to slay the lie, but that doesn’t mean it will go well for her. Quaithe also told her not to trust Quentyn and that was bad advice. There’s no reason to even introduce Aegon unless he’s a popular ruler; if he’s just going to be a mad and cruel king for Dany to take out, then Cersei would do just as well.

And we’re already seeing the Daenerys the Mad reputation form, even if it’s undeserved. Quentyn and Arianne are in different countries, but they’ve both heard rumors about her that disturb them. Mace Tyrell has already started propagating the belief that she’s as mad as her father. And when Gerris and Arch get back to Dorne and tell everyone that Dany laughed in Quentyn’s face, that will just be taken as further proof of her cruelty.

I disagree. Quaithe was right about Quentyn and Dany was right not to trust him.

He tried to steal one of her dragons. If that isn't bad enough to convince you, take a moment to think about what would've happened if he was successful.

 

True about Dany's reputation. The slavers will be gone but their legacy of falsely portraying Dany as a horror will live on. The sad thing about is that some of the things that Quentyn and Arianne have heard were true...to a certain extent.

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12 minutes ago, BlackLightning said:

Arya would like to have a word with you in that alley over there. Especially since wildlings, Dornishmen and everyone in between is going to be prostrating themselves before a crippled ten-year-old boy with creepy psychic powers.

On a more serious note, a ten-year-old girl can actually exert power if she sits the Iron Throne as the reigning Lady of the Seven Kingdoms. People will listen to her.

I think Myrcella, unlike Tommen, is going to challenge Cersei every step of the way and won't be so easily cowed. She seems to be situated right in between Joffrey and Tommen: willful like Joffrey but kind like Tommen.

Really? I thought Myrcella is the same age as Arya.

In any case, making a Lannister bastard who is pretending to be a Baratheon your wife and queen is not convenient to anyone's cause.

It invites disaster.

Which makes sense. Between JonCon the ticking time bomb, over-trusting Tyrion, the behavior of the Golden Company, having any sort of working relationship with the Sand Snakes and not telling Daenerys anything, Team Aegon is developing a trend of inviting disaster.

If Aegon makes Myrcella his queen, all I'm going to say is "keep on digging, Team Aegon. Keep digging."

The second scenario is more likely. Sick and twisted...but more likely. Mistreating Queen Myrcella would, once again, invite disaster.

Because I can't imagine any scenario where Cersei would willfully separate herself from Myrcella and leave her at the mercies of #TeamInvitingDisaster. Especially considering that Myrcella would be her last remaining child.

@The Bard of Banefort had the right of it when she said that Aegon has to be popular. If not, then why bother with another Aegon. If Aegon is going to be an unpopular, mean-spirited snowflake, then why bother? You could've skipped the whole Aegon thing and left Cersei in power. Or you could've waved a magic wand and made it so that Stannis or Euron seized the Iron Throne.

However, the fact remains that "popular ≠ good." Something can be popular and well-built but still be bad news. Which is a good lesson that the whole world desperately needs to learn right now.

Aegon can be popular and charming and hip or whatever. But neither he nor his administration are capable of defending the realm from the Others. In fact, there are some members in his group (chiefly Varys) who despise magic and religion so much that they would actively try to silence anyone who speaks of the Others. Plus, then there's Dany who is the second most overtly-magical character in the entire series (Bran is the first). The mere fact that Dany is embraces and utilizes magic and religion speaks volumes makes her an patent enemy of Varys.

There's a trope on TVTropes.com that talks about this kind of anti-villain. Some kind and popular and handsome but that is still obviously bad news.

But I agree. If there is going to be an "evil Targaryen" of the series, then is going to have to be Aegon. But frankly, I think he's a Blackfyre so it's a moot point.

 

I disagree though. I think the Lannister-Greyjoy coalition would be more than capable of taking an entire city hostage. But only if 1) everyone else is busy somewhere else, 2) if the city is weakened which it will be...it'll be the worst winter in almost ten thousand years and 3) if said city is being controlled by people who don't really know what they are doing.

 

The thing with Aegon is that he might have charm and the theoretical know-how (which I doubt because resident scholar Tyrion was very unimpressed with Aegon) but he lacks the practical skills, the patience/temperament, and the real-world experience that Dany, Jon or even Bran possess.

This deep lack of experience and knowledge combined with his entitlement and status of adulthood would be a recipe for disaster in normal times. In extraordinary times such as the Second Long Night, having a leader like that be painful and prolonged suicide.

I disagree. Quaithe was right about Quentyn and Dany was right not to trust him.

He tried to steal one of her dragons. If that isn't bad enough to convince you, take a moment to think about what would've happened if he was successful.

 

True about Dany's reputation. The slavers will be gone but their legacy of falsely portraying Dany as a horror will live on. The sad thing about is that some of the things that Quentyn and Arianne have heard were true...to a certain extent.

Slavery is a sin.  But, I think that many nobles would be horrified that one of their own class should punish other members of their own class for it.

I don’t doubt that upper class refugees fleeing West will bear horrid tales of oppression.

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11 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Arya would like to have a word with you in that alley over there. Especially since wildlings, Dornishmen and everyone in between is going to be prostrating themselves before a crippled ten-year-old boy with creepy psychic powers.

Arya is a very big exception. Myrcella is nothing like her ... and I daresay the Northmen would still not taking orders from an eleven-year-old girl, no matter how many pedophiles she gutted. Because leading men is a job for men, not children ... and children rarely understand politics or warfare all that well ... nor can they communicate that this is the case when they are a huge exception.

Meaning a regent would rule in her stead ... just as a regent would be appointed to rule in Myrcella's name if she were ever to be made queen. Even Jaehaerys I had to accept a regent ... and Aegon III was literally ruled by them.

11 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I think Myrcella, unlike Tommen, is going to challenge Cersei every step of the way and won't be so easily cowed. She seems to be situated right in between Joffrey and Tommen: willful like Joffrey but kind like Tommen.

If Myrcella would want to quarrel she should quarrel with Mace Tyrell and the council, not so much her mother ... who has no longer a part in the government.

11 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

In any case, making a Lannister bastard who is pretending to be a Baratheon your wife and queen is not convenient to anyone's cause.

It invites disaster.

That wouldn't invite disaster at all. It could even convince a considerable number of followers of Tommen to side with Aegon. The Westermen and even Tommen's followers from the Reach and the Stormlands.

11 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Which makes sense. Between JonCon the ticking time bomb, over-trusting Tyrion, the behavior of the Golden Company, having any sort of working relationship with the Sand Snakes and not telling Daenerys anything, Team Aegon is developing a trend of inviting disaster.

If Aegon makes Myrcella his queen, all I'm going to say is "keep on digging, Team Aegon. Keep digging."

Aegon is doomed on the long run anyway - they will dig their own graves, Daenerys or whoever else is going to finish is just going to help them enter the coffin.

11 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

The second scenario is more likely. Sick and twisted...but more likely. Mistreating Queen Myrcella would, once again, invite disaster.

Because I can't imagine any scenario where Cersei would willfully separate herself from Myrcella and leave her at the mercies of #TeamInvitingDisaster. Especially considering that Myrcella would be her last remaining child.

Cersei has first be reunited with her daughter. And that we have to consider why and how she reaches the conclusion that she has to go ... and if there is even a chance she might take Tommen and/or Myrcella with her. That's all completely vague at that point.

11 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

@The Bard of Banefort had the right of it when she said that Aegon has to be popular. If not, then why bother with another Aegon. If Aegon is going to be an unpopular, mean-spirited snowflake, then why bother? You could've skipped the whole Aegon thing and left Cersei in power. Or you could've waved a magic wand and made it so that Stannis or Euron seized the Iron Throne.

Cersei isn't a Targaryen pretender, though. She is just a regent with very real power. A Targaryen pretender will be able to inspires true loyalty in lords and smallfolk alike ... even if he does questionable and cruel things.

I never said Aegon will be unpopular ... I just think there is a good chance that he will be very popular very quickly ... and then starts a slow decline. There is little reason to assume that Aegon will or can be very popular when Dany shows up - at that point winter will have the Realm in its grip, the Others might no longer be myth, Euron will make the south bleed, possibly attacking Aegon directly, etc.

Not to mention the grey plague pandemic Connington might start.

11 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Aegon can be popular and charming and hip or whatever. But neither he nor his administration are capable of defending the realm from the Others. In fact, there are some members in his group (chiefly Varys) who despise magic and religion so much that they would actively try to silence anyone who speaks of the Others. Plus, then there's Dany who is the second most overtly-magical character in the entire series (Bran is the first). The mere fact that Dany is embraces and utilizes magic and religion speaks volumes makes her an patent enemy of Varys.

In light of the fact that Varys/Illyrio originally included Dany in her Dothraki plans and wanted to marry Aegon to her makes that unlikely.

Varys doesn't so much hate magic ... as he hates those who practice magic, i.e. sorcerers. And Daenerys Targaryen is no sorceress. They might still end up opposing her, but I doupt it will be because of magic.

11 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

But I agree. If there is going to be an "evil Targaryen" of the series, then is going to have to be Aegon. But frankly, I think he's a Blackfyre so it's a moot point.

It is irrelevant who Aegon's true parents or ancestors are. He is a Targaryen pretender and is going to be seen as such. And Blackfyre is just another name for Targaryen. They are the same family, just a different branch.

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12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

If Myrcella would want to quarrel she should quarrel with Mace Tyrell and the council, not so much her mother ... who has no longer a part in the government.

Myrcella can be intractable towards Cersei without it having anything to do with the government.

Besides, Mace Tyrell and the current council are so aligned because of Tommen and his wedded relationship with Margaery. In order for Myrcella to be the ruling Queen of Westeros, something would have to happen to Tommen (and Margaery). That's why I think that if there is some sort of mass murder of the Tyrell leadership orchestrated by Cersei and/or the Sand Snakes, Tommen gets caught in the crossfire and dies.

Myrcella becoming queen puts Cersei back in control of the government. Which is what Varys would want.

Plus, I expect Mace will be leaving King's Landing soon enough to deal with Aegon.

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

In light of the fact that Varys/Illyrio originally included Dany in her Dothraki plans and wanted to marry Aegon to her makes that unlikely.

That's a bit disingenuous isn't it.

Because Varys and Illyrio expected Dany to die in the Dothraki Sea. She was just the coin they used to pay for a Dothraki khalasar; they didn't care what happened to her. They didn't expect anything from her.

It was always just about Aegon.

Because if they wanted Daenerys as his wife and queen from the outset, then there is no reason why Viserys and Daenerys did not meet and live with Aegon in Illyrio's home in Pentos.

They only wanted Daenerys as Aegon's wife after she survived her husband, brought back the dragons and began making a name for herself in Qarth.

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Varys doesn't so much hate magic ... as he hates those who practice magic, i.e. sorcerers. And Daenerys Targaryen is no sorceress. They might still end up opposing her, but I doupt it will be because of magic.

I don't see a difference between hating magic and hating magic practitioners. People who hate religion (or one religion in particular) are more than likely, at best, very dismissive towards people who practice religion.

There's no real difference as far as I'm concerned.

But if Daenerys shows up in Westeros with Marwyn the Mage, Benerro, Moqorro and the Fiery Hand...

Daenerys is actually something of a sorceress. She did what no other Targaryen dragon-dreamer did: brought the dragons back with a magic ritual

 

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2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Myrcella can be intractable towards Cersei without it having anything to do with the government.

Well, she is also not intractable towards Arianne, so I don't think anyone has to fear much from her. Even more so since she has been disfigured recently, which most likely threw her into a depression. I expect that we won't see her in public at all in TWoW. And if so, she will hide her face.

2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Besides, Mace Tyrell and the current council are so aligned because of Tommen and his wedded relationship with Margaery. In order for Myrcella to be the ruling Queen of Westeros, something would have to happen to Tommen (and Margaery). That's why I think that if there is some sort of mass murder of the Tyrell leadership orchestrated by Cersei and/or the Sand Snakes, Tommen gets caught in the crossfire and dies.

Myrcella becoming queen puts Cersei back in control of the government. Which is what Varys would want.

No, that is not a given. Yes, Mace's position at court at this moment goes back to him being the father of the queen. But if he is Hand and Lord Regent when Tommen dies ... he should remain in that position rather than being dismissed by a monarch who lacks the legal authority to do that kind of thing.

I mean, King Tommen also didn't name a new regent and a new Hand when he took the throne, right?

Cersei cannot possibly 'mass-murder' the Tyrells leadership at court - even if Mace and Tarly were dead, there are tens of thousands of Tyrell men in the capital, and if the leaders were gone one of the lesser Reach lords or knights would take over ... and, more importantly, the men would avenge their leaders.

And the Sand Snakes have even less of a chance doing this ... more so considering that Myrcella should disclose what actually happened in Dorne once she is no longer surrounded by Dornishmen.

2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

Plus, I expect Mace will be leaving King's Landing soon enough to deal with Aegon.

If that happens then Mace should keep whatever offices he has even if his monarch dies and is replaced by his sister.

2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

That's a bit disingenuous isn't it.

Because Varys and Illyrio expected Dany to die in the Dothraki Sea. She was just the coin they used to pay for a Dothraki khalasar; they didn't care what happened to her. They didn't expect anything from her.

It was always just about Aegon.

Because if they wanted Daenerys as his wife and queen from the outset, then there is no reason why Viserys and Daenerys did not meet and live with Aegon in Illyrio's home in Pentos.

They only wanted Daenerys as Aegon's wife after she survived her husband, brought back the dragons and began making a name for herself in Qarth.

Sure, sure ... but Dany and Aegon (if Targaryen or Blackfyre) do have 'magical blood'. A person hating magic should not work with such people.

There is a difference there between, say, the Citadel's anti-magic agenda and Varys' personal issues with magic going back to his castration.

If Varys had such issues with magic then he should not have possible thought that Aegon should marry Daenerys ... or become a dragonrider himself.

2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

I don't see a difference between hating magic and hating magic practitioners. People who hate religion (or one religion in particular) are more than likely, at best, very dismissive towards people who practice religion.

There's no real difference as far as I'm concerned.

In context, Varys tells his story to manipulate Tyrion. He wants to convince Tyrion that magic is real (hence the personal story), that Stannis is using magic to make political and military gains, and that he, Varys, will stand with Tyrion and Joffrey against Stannis.

2 hours ago, BlackLightning said:

But if Daenerys shows up in Westeros with Marwyn the Mage, Benerro, Moqorro and the Fiery Hand...

Sure ... Varys may have issues with that. But we have to see how prevalent magic is going to be at that time in Westeros. Varys believes in magic, so he should also believe reports about the Others ... especially if they keep coming. Varys is no fanatic who would persecute magical people who might be their best chance to get rid of the magical ice demons and their zombies.

And he clearly has no issue with the magical dragons.

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