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3 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I think you are taking it wrong. In this context, "name" equals to "dynasties and families". I'm convinced Corly's intent behind this quote will be precisely that families mean everything.

I'm sure that the quote will be part of a conversation between Corlys and Laenor where the later is worried about how Rhaenys is trying to pass her sons as his. When Corlys says that "blood is not important, the name is" he is just advocating for pragmatism. He is only trying to convince Laenor to acknowlege them, since that's in the family's best interests.

I think it's not out of character, and I can imagine Corlys from the books giving that kind of advise to his son.

I agree with your interpretation of Corlys words, however, I don't think Laenor needed convincing. Unless I'm misremembering both Laenor and Harwin were there for all three births and he wanted Jace and then Luke to be named after his deceased lover Joffrey Lonmouth. Rhaenyra eventually relented with the birth of her 3rd son. For whatever reason Laenor was on board and accepted the boys, Corlys could be speaking to Rhaenys or someone else in the circle of trust who isn't on board with the Strong boys. 

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Does anyone know when Viserys sent Rhaenyra to live in Dragonstone permanently? Was it after Laena's funeral? I remember reading that Laena and Rhaenyra went riding all the time. I was thought Rhaenyra and Laenor lived in Dragonstone and Daemon and Laena lived in Driftmark. But the families always hung out. Is that correct?  

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48 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

didn't Rhaenyra and Laena arrange those betrothals, though?

The idea that they were constantly on Driftmark when negotiations happened makes it seem highly unlikely that Corlys was not have been involved.

There was certainly never a question after the arrangement was made of changing it. And one can't help but note that at the opportune time, Corlys brought out his bastard sons and made one of them his heir after having them legitimized... so the name does matter, indeed, but of course so did the blood. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Ran said:

Corlys brought out his bastard sons and made one of them his heir after having them legitimized... so the name does matter, indeed, but of course so did the blood. 

The question is, did he have his sons in his back pocket to eventually disinherit Luke and then Joffrey, or were they a back up plan in case the boys died? its a medieval world, children died all the time, so I get the prudence, or was there a darker aspect? 

Edit: I mention this because someone once told me he believed Corlys and Daemon would've murdered the Strong boys had Rhaenyra ascended to the IT so they could be replaced by Daemon's sons on the IT and Corlys sons in Driftmark. 

Edited by Sotan
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2 minutes ago, Sotan said:

The question is, did he have his sons in his back pocket to eventually disinherit Luke and then Joffrey, or were they a back up plan in case the boys died? its a medieval world, children died all the time, so I get the prudence, or was there a darker aspect? 

Edit: I mention this because someone once told me he believed Corlys and Daemon would've murdered the Strong boys had Rhaenyra ascended to the IT so they could be replaced by Daemon's sons on the IT and Corlys sons in Driftmark. 

The Strong boys were betrothed to Daemon’s girls with Laena, so either way both he and Corlys have an heir on the Iron Throne.

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3 hours ago, The hairy bear said:

I think you are taking it wrong. In this context, "name" equals to "dynasties and families". I'm convinced Corly's intent behind this quote will be precisely that families mean everything.

I'm sure that the quote will be part of a conversation between Corlys and Laenor where the later is worried about how Rhaenys is trying to pass her sons as his. When Corlys says that "blood is not important, the name is" he is just advocating for pragmatism. He is only trying to convince Laenor to acknowlege them, since that's in the family's best interests.

I think it's not out of character, and I can imagine Corlys from the books giving that kind of advise to his son.

I'd be very suprised if Laenor needed that kind of reassurance from his dad. Laenor is the homosexual, the guy who presumably prefers the company of his friends. He would also be the guy who decided that he would father no children on Rhaenyra. Rhaenyra's children wouldn't have been Harwin's if Laenor had bothered having sex with her. This is not a scenario where it is likely that the guy who refused to co-habit with his wife was cheated on and then cared.

And neither Corlys nor Laenor nor Harwin had problems with the situation - the two young guys eagerly awaited the birth of the boys, Laenor wanted to name them after his beloved Joffrey, and Corlys insisted that they get Velaryon names.

But in context the lines are also not delivered as if they were part of a dialogue sequence where a father was offering advice ... rather Corlys seems to be givng a speech there, which makes it more likely that this isn't actual dialogue from the show.

45 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

didn't Rhaenyra and Laena arrange those betrothals, though? it sure would have been in Corlys and Rhaenys's best interests but I don't remember any indication that any of them were behind that arrangement. 

Rhaenyra and Laena did indeed make those matches, and Rhaenys and Corlys are not even mentioned in that context.

In fact, Corlys didn't seem to care much about his own succession, refusing to name a new heir after the death of both Laena and Laenor. If the matches between his grandchildren were supposed to ensure that Driftmark went to a 'biological Velaryon' then he should have named either Jace or Luke, the prospective husbands of his granddaughters. But he hadn't, giving Vaemond the opening he was trying to exploit. It is a ridiculous scenario to assume that Rhaenyra would only ask her very old father-in-law to name a successor when the guy seemed to be dying. Corlys was already a very old man in 120 AC when his children died, so everybody should have expected him to predecease his wife, Viserys I, and everybody else, basically.

Not to mention that he also failed to name a proper successor after the Dance. Alyn was kind of acknowledged as his heir, but he had to fight for it in front of the regency council and the marriage to Baela wasn't an arranged dynastic marriage to strengthen the claim of the baseborn bastard legitimized by Rhaenyra ... but an emergency wedding to save Baela from an unwanted marriage.

This doesn't imply that Corlys Velaryon hadn't a real plan how to deal with his 'legacy' or inheritance.

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2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Not to mention that he also failed to name a proper successor after the Dance.

Corlys explicitly named Addam and Alyn as suitable heirs during the Dance, Alyn was explicitly called Corlys's heir after Addam's death, and also after Corlys's death he is more than once called Corlys's chosen heir.  The regency council rejected the counter claims from the extended family, so I'm not sure how Alyn had to "fight" for anything in regards to the realm at large. It was merely his kin he had to deal with, something he'd have to do regardless of how things fell out.

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39 minutes ago, Sotan said:

Does anyone know when Viserys sent Rhaenyra to live in Dragonstone permanently? Was it after Laena's funeral? I remember reading that Laena and Rhaenyra went riding all the time. I was thought Rhaenyra and Laenor lived in Dragonstone and Daemon and Laena lived in Driftmark. But the families always hung out. Is that correct?  

Viserys I only decided that Rhaenyra and her family were to live on Dragonstone after the Vhagar incident. Prior to that, Rhaenyra had lived at court after her marriage in 113 AC while Laenor chose to reside at High Tide, only joining his wife for special occasions. After the birth of Luke things started to get very tense at court between the Blacks and Greens, so Rhaenyra chose move to Dragonstone, but that was her preference, not a royal command.

While she resided on Dragonstone Laenor was set to visit 'frequently' and Rhaenyra grew 'more than fond' of Laena Velaryon upon her return from Pentos. That was when the betrothals were arranged. There is no indication that had anything to do with Corlys or Rhaenys ... rather it seemed to have been the result of an implied romance (or - for the anti-bisexuals among the readership - a very close friendship) between Laena and Rhaenyra.

28 minutes ago, Sotan said:

The question is, did he have his sons in his back pocket to eventually disinherit Luke and then Joffrey, or were they a back up plan in case the boys died? its a medieval world, children died all the time, so I get the prudence, or was there a darker aspect? 

Edit: I mention this because someone once told me he believed Corlys and Daemon would've murdered the Strong boys had Rhaenyra ascended to the IT so they could be replaced by Daemon's sons on the IT and Corlys sons in Driftmark. 

That doesn't make much sense. And Corlys' baseborn bastards only rose to prominence during the war. Not only does the book imply that Rhaenys would have harmed them had she known they existed (and she was much younger than Corlys, so likely to outlive him), they were only presented as potential dragonriders to Jacaerys when he put out his call. They needed folks like the Hull boys, so this kind of thing made sense as a reward.

And it is the dragonrider Addam Velaryon who is the original new heir to Driftmark, not dragonless Alyn. Alyn only ends up in that role after Joffrey Velaryon and Addam Velaryon have died in the war. And after Jace's death in the Gullet, Joff became Prince of Dragonstone, so from that moment on Laenor's last son by Rhaenyra was not even likely to make a claim to Driftmark, intending to succeed his mother on the Iron Throne.

2 minutes ago, Ran said:

Corlys explicitly named Addam and Alyn as suitable heirs during the Dance, Alyn was explicitly called Corlys's heir after Addam's death, and also after Corlys's death he is more than once called Corlys's chosen heir.  The regency council rejected the counter claims from the extended family, so I'm not sure how Alyn had to "fight" for anything in regards to the realm at large. It was merely his kin he had to deal with, something he'd have to do regardless of how things fell out.

It looks to me that Corlys could have made surer that his extended family behave - by taking away their assets, for example. Corlys Velaryon was one the regents, after all, increasing whatever authority he also had as Lord of Driftmark. He could also have had the regency council rule on his succession before his death and then have a ceremony including Aegon III himself to ensure that nobody would dare to challenge Alyn's succession.

This whole thing is very much akin to the succession struggle in the Vale - where Joffrey's succession is also a big problem because Lady Jeyne only named him heir on her deathbed rather than establishing it years ago that this Arryn cousin was her heir rather than any of the others.

It is also kind of weird that Corlys didn't make sure that his granddaughters - now the half-sisters of the king himself - were to fly with the bastard solution. It just so happens that only the malcontents challenge the rise of Alyn Velaryon - and not the Lady Baela and the Lady Rhaena. All other sons of Laenor Velaryon were dead, so the girls were next in line.

And with there being neither a betrothal nor any other strong connection between Alyn and Baela it is odd indeed that they accepted that. Prior to FaB pretty much everybody assume that Corlys arranged the Alyn-Baela match to strengthen Alyn's claim and to strengthen the ties of House Velaryon to King Aegon III. Instead, this turned out to be unplanned (and somewhat messy) romance.

Corlys also bungled his own succession on the regency council - Alyn demanded his grandfather's seat, but wasn't granted it. One assumes that they could have been avoided if the old man had made sure that Alyn would also succeed Corlys in that capacity.

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28 minutes ago, Sotan said:

The question is, did he have his sons in his back pocket to eventually disinherit Luke and then Joffrey, or were they a back up plan in case the boys died? its a medieval world, children died all the time, so I get the prudence, or was there a darker aspect? 

It's certainly an interesting coincidence that Marilda of Hull starts having children the same year that Jacaerys is born. By this time, any lingering thought Corlys might have had that Laenor could swallow down his hippocras and get Rhaenyra with child must have been put paid. 

I don't think he'd murder his granddaughter's betrotheds or try to disinherit them. But I do think he figured that one never knows what fate brings you.

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4 minutes ago, Ran said:

It's certainly an interesting coincidence that Marilda of Hull starts having children the same year that Jacaerys is born. By this time, any lingering thought Corlys might have had that Laenor could swallow down his hippocras and get Rhaenyra with child must have been put paid. 

I don't think he'd murder his granddaughter's betrotheds or try to disinherit them. But I do think he figured that one never knows what fate brings you.

good point. the affair between Marilda and Corlys is still the one single thing that bugs me the most in FnB , even more than everything involving Vissera. but it could make sense that at first Corlys was not on board with whatever agreement Laenor and Rhaenyra had with their Strong sons. thinking about it, he may have only agreed with the situation after the boys were betrothed to his granddaughters and he started warming up to the boys:dunno:

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2 hours ago, Ran said:

It's certainly an interesting coincidence that Marilda of Hull starts having children the same year that Jacaerys is born. By this time, any lingering thought Corlys might have had that Laenor could swallow down his hippocras and get Rhaenyra with child must have been put paid. 

I don't think he'd murder his granddaughter's betrotheds or try to disinherit them. But I do think he figured that one never knows what fate brings you.

Don't think the dates add up there, since Jace is born late in 114 AC.

Unless we assume Corlys *knew* prior to the birth of Jacaerys that the boy wasn't Laenor's seed. That would mean, though, that Laenor and Rhaenyra were very straightforward with the old man - which is certainly possible, but not something we have any indication for.

And for the succession of Driftmark the second son was the deciding factor, anyway. Rhaenyra's eldest son would succeed her on the Iron Throne.

2 hours ago, EggBlue said:

good point. the affair between Marilda and Corlys is still the one single thing that bugs me the most in FnB , even more than everything involving Vissera. but it could make sense that at first Corlys was not on board with whatever agreement Laenor and Rhaenyra had with their Strong sons. thinking about it, he may have only agreed with the situation after the boys were betrothed to his granddaughters and he started warming up to the boys:dunno:

That doesn't seem likely, though. The old man insisted that the elder two boys get traditional Velaryon names. Would he have done that if he felt they weren't his grandsons?

Edited by Lord Varys
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1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

That doesn't seem likely, though. The old man insisted that the elder two boys get traditional Velaryon names. Would he have done that if he felt they weren't his grandsons?

wouldn't that be all the more reason to give them Velaryon names and not Targaryen's or Andal's? he was trying to Velaryonize them:P 

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7 minutes ago, EggBlue said:

wouldn't that be all the more reason to give them Velaryon names and not Targaryen's or Andal's? he was trying to Velaryonize them:P 

Yeah, but think of the context. So Corlys can Laenor force to give two of his sons names of his choosing - indicating the old man is somewhat in charge - but not force him to actually father the sons the grandfather then names?

That's just weird.

If Laenor told his dad that he would do as he please in and outside of his marriage, then he would also have had the freedom to give his sons names of his choosing.

Hell, in context it is quite weird that Corlys had any saying in the matter at all. Their other grandfather was King Viserys I himself, and he wanted Rhaenyra and her eldest son to succeed him. So why didn't the boys - especially the eldest - get traditional Targaryen names? Why did Rhaenyra allow that they were given Velaryon names?

Edited by Lord Varys
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I got the impression that Corlys and Rhaenys blamed Laenor for not sleeping with Rhaenyra and therefore didn’t bear her any ill will for taking a secret lover.

Whichever grand maester wrote FnB (Yandel?) had no problem mentioning every prurient rumor about the royal family that was recorded. If he was trying to imply that Rhaenyra was sleeping with Laena, I’m sure he would have just come out and said it.

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1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I got the impression that Corlys and Rhaenys blamed Laenor for not sleeping with Rhaenyra and therefore didn’t bear her any ill will for taking a secret lover.

If it was a secret lover. I mean, if this was a thing, then it was clearly *not* a secret within the (larger) family. Harwin and Laenor both attending Rhaenyra at birth proves that. Harwin was just a bodyguard, he wouldn't have had open access to such private events unless the family was okay with that.

Unlike Jaime, Harwin wasn't exactly Rhaenyra's twin brother nor was Laenor away (like Robert) when Rhaenyra gave birth. He was right there, next to Harwin.

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Whichever grand maester wrote FnB (Yandel?) had no problem mentioning every prurient rumor about the royal family that was recorded. If he was trying to imply that Rhaenyra was sleeping with Laena, I’m sure he would have just come out and said it.

Stuff about Laena is pretty brief in any case. And it is not that George actually does describe a lesbian relationship among the royals in FaB. We just get hints with them - for Jeyne Arryn and Sabitha Frey and Black Aly we get rumors and ribald story, but Rhaena never gets a juicy lesbian love story ... just that some dude claimed her maidenhead when she was flying around on Dreamfyre.

We have the phrase used 'more than fond', which is a phrase George repeatedly uses to indicate romance or love. And since Rhaenyra's actual husband lived at High Tide at the time, too, along with Daemon and Laena, it seems clear the observations of folks that Rhaenyra liked to spend time was Laena is not something people imagined. If she had spent time with Daemon or Laenor folks would have noticed that, too.

In fact, Laena as a lesbian could work pretty great. It could explain why her parents didn't marry her off before Daemon claimed her, it explains why she befriended Rhaenyra, and it would also make her marriage to Daemon what it clearly was - political match strengthen both the position of Daemon and the Velaryons.

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12 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Okay, I’ll be that person: I though the “history remembers names” line was kind of dumb and not that poignant, especially considering that House Targaryen’s words are “Fire and Blood.” Not to mention that in ASOIAF, blood and names are usually linked.

Especially the beginning is dumb. 'What is this brief, mortal life if not the pursuit of legacy...'

Newsflash, Corlys, you didn't give a damn about 'legacy' for most of your life. When you were barely old enough you jumped on a ship and never left the sea again. You risked your life countless times to boldly go where no Westerosi has gone before ... and you did that knowing that you could die broken and alone without anyone back home even knowing where you were.

You spurned a king's daughter and you never married until you were approaching forty, meaning you were fully aware you might never have children of your own.

And thinking about that a little bit the guy really has a weird shift in his personality throughout his life. He is supposed to be a great adventurer and explorer who actually could stop being that guy when he married Rhaenys which is kind of a stretch (which we likely should interpret as this being truly a love match on Corlys' part - if the marriage hadn't worked out, the guy would have always had the sea). But later on he risks everything he has built just so his daughter-in-law can sit on the Iron Throne? That's kind of odd. He has little to gain from that and everything to lose. And when he starts losing things fast he becomes a fervent advocate of peace? While not impossible, it is quite a drastic change.

I mean, wouldn't he have pushed Rhaenyra for a peaceful settlement in the beginning if he was so peace-loving?

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58 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Especially the beginning is dumb. 'What is this brief, mortal life if not the pursuit of legacy...'

Newsflash, Corlys, you didn't give a damn about 'legacy' for most of your life. When you were barely old enough you jumped on a ship and never left the sea again. You risked your life countless times to boldly go where no Westerosi has gone before ... and you did that knowing that you could die broken and alone without anyone back home even knowing where you were.

You spurned a king's daughter and you never married until you were approaching forty, meaning you were fully aware you might never have children of your own.

And thinking about that a little bit the guy really has a weird shift in his personality throughout his life. He is supposed to be a great adventurer and explorer who actually could stop being that guy when he married Rhaenys which is kind of a stretch (which we likely should interpret as this being truly a love match on Corlys' part - if the marriage hadn't worked out, the guy would have always had the sea). But later on he risks everything he has built just so his daughter-in-law can sit on the Iron Throne? That's kind of odd. He has little to gain from that and everything to lose. And when he starts losing things fast he becomes a fervent advocate of peace? While not impossible, it is quite a drastic change.

I mean, wouldn't he have pushed Rhaenyra for a peaceful settlement in the beginning if he was so peace-loving?

He may have gotten corrupted by his wealth-induced power. After all, he eagerly helped Daemon carve out his Stepstones kingdom because the tolls the Triarchy was imposing on shipping was affecting his bottom line.

And it seems that from when Rhaenys was denied her inheritance at the Great Council of 101 he became more deeply involved in politics.

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