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Poisons, potions and their fellow travelers


Seams

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I was pondering Tears of Lys and Alyssa's Tears. One is a poison with the following description in the Wiki:

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When dissolved in liquids and swallowed, the poison eats away at the stomach and bowels of the victim, and appears to be a disease of those organs.[3] Giving the victim a powerful purgative, if done early enough, may be the only thing that can save their life,[4][5] but even that may not be enough.[6] It is unknown if the poison has a connection with the Weeping Lady of Lys.

When we are told about an unknown connection, I usually assume we are supposed to seek a connection. Here is a summary of what little we know about the Weeping Lady of Lys:

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When first entering the House of Black and White, Arya Stark notes the statue of a marble woman, 12 feet tall (3,66 meters). Real tears are trickling from the eyes, filling the bowl the woman cradled in her arms. The statue of a man with a lion's head stands nearby. At this point Arya cannot name the figures.[3] Early in her training, Arya is able to identify both the Weeping Woman and the Lion of Night.[2]

The weeping lady is a statue, which almost certainly alludes to another statue associated with tears:

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Alyssa's Tears is a waterfall in the Vale of Arryn. It lies on the western side of the Giant's Lance.[1] It receives its name from Alyssa Arryn, an ancient member of House Arryn who saw her family butchered before her and never shed a tear. No drop of the waterfall reaches the floor of the valley below. (Wiki)

...

A bell tolled loudly below them. High lords and serving girls alike broke off what they were doing and moved to the balustrade. Below, two guardsmen in sky-blue cloaks led forth Tyrion Lannister. The Eyrie's plump septon escorted him to the statue in the center of the garden, a weeping woman carved in veined white marble, no doubt meant to be Alyssa.

...

Bronn came out from behind the statue hard and fast, still moving left, aiming a two-handed cut at the knight's unshielded right side. Ser Vardis blocked, but clumsily, and the sellsword's blade flashed upward at his head. Metal rang, and a falcon's wing collapsed with a crunch. Ser Vardis took a half step back to brace himself, raised his shield. Oak chips flew as Bronn's sword hacked at the wooden wall. The sellsword stepped left again, away from the shield, and caught Ser Vardis across the stomach, the razor edge of his blade leaving a bright gash when it bit into the knight's plate.
Ser Vardis drove forward off his back foot, his own silver blade descending in a savage arc. Bronn slammed it aside and danced away. The knight crashed into the weeping woman, rocking her on her plinth. Staggered, he stepped backward, his head turning this way and that as he searched for his foe. The slit visor of his helm narrowed his vision.
...
One moment [Ser Vardis] was reeling backward, half-crouched behind his scarred shield; the next he charged. The sudden bull rush caught Bronn off balance. Ser Vardis crashed into him and slammed the lip of his shield into the sellsword's face. Almost, almost, Bronn lost his feet … he staggered back, tripped over a rock, and caught hold of the weeping woman to keep his balance. Throwing aside his shield, Ser Vardis lurched after him, using both hands to raise his sword. His right arm was blood from elbow to fingers now, yet his last desperate blow would have opened Bronn from neck to navel … if the sellsword had stood to receive it.
 
But Bronn jerked back. Jon Arryn's beautiful engraved silver sword glanced off the marble elbow of the weeping woman and snapped clean a third of the way up the blade. Bronn put his shoulder into the statue's back. The weathered likeness of Alyssa Arryn tottered and fell with a great crash, and Ser Vardis Egen went down beneath her. (AGoT, Catelyn VII)

Varys tells Ned Stark that Jon Arryn was poisoned with Tears of Lys. There is suspicion the Grand Maester Pycelle might have been the agent of the poison but he says that he thinks the squire, Hugh of the Vale, poisoned the Hand. Later, Sansa learns that Lysa Arryn poisoned her husband at the request of Petyr Baelish. 

If the Trial by Combat involving Bronn and Ser Vardis is a hint about the death of Jon Arryn (Lysa says that Ser Vardis was Jon's right hand), I think we can look to both the Tears of Lys poison for clues as well as the similar duel between Ser Gregor Clegane and Prince Oberyn Martell. Oberyn is an expert in the use of poisons and there is widespread suspicion that he poisons his weapon to ensure that Ser Gregor will suffer a slow and painful death, no matter the outcome of their combat.

For what it's worth, I think of both Ser Gregor and Ser Vardis as "green" characters while Bronn is a brown character and Prince Oberyn seems to be a red character - stemming from his Red Vyper nickname. In both Trials by Combat, Tyrion is the subject of the question about innocence or guilt. We are not told about the ingredients for Tears of Lys but it is considered a rare poison and it is made by Alchemists (who also make wild fire). Because Bronn and Prince Oberyn are both acting as champions and because there is probably wordplay on "champion" and "champignon," I suspect Tears of Lys includes mushrooms as an ingredient. 

But there is also wordplay on "tear" (the drop that falls from a sad person's eye) and "tear" (what happens to fabric when someone pulls it apart). So Arya has a "Needle" that could mend torn fabric but she hides her needle while she learns how to use poison. People in the Castle Black POVs often note that the Wall is weeping. A salty drop falls on Bran as he passes beneath the Wall at the Night Fort. 

But Tears of Lys is just one poison among many with potential deeper meaning or connection to other literary motifs in the books.

  • Is The Strangler linked to The Stranger?
  • At one point, I thought that "Milk of the Poppy," which seems to be a sort of morphine-like medicine in Westeros, could be symbolic of milk that comes from a father - wordplay on "Pop" and "Poppy." It's not exactly a poison, but it is used to drug people and might be lethal in excessive doses.
  • Nightshade is a real family of edible plants (tomato, potato, eggplant - anything involving eggs has to be important in ASOIAF) as well as a real poison (belladonna) in our world. Given the importance of night and shadows in the series. what is GRRM trying to tell us about poisons and shadows through the mention of nightshade?
  • More wordplay, through the "almost anagrams" that seem to be a thing in ASOIAF: is "venom" related to "lemon"? Are they opposites?
  • Is it significant that "manticore" contains possible hidden meanings involving "iceman," "romance," and "cremation" among other possibilities? 
  • "Gift" is the German word for poison. So any time we see gifts given or received, GRRM could be dropping a hint about poison.

Here is a link to the wiki entry on ASOIAF poisons for ease of reference. Please share your thoughts on the deeper meanings of poisons and potions in ASOIAF.

 

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I love your analyses. They are always so rich and detailed.

I believe that poisons in the story are linked to the 'soft power' side of the game of thrones, things like money, prestige, good looks, charms and wit. The Tears of Lys are supposed to be rare, suggesting they are expensive. The Tyrells, a wealthy family, used poison to kill Joffrey. The colour purple, connected with Joffrey's death, also has connotations of wealth and prestige. The Lannisters, the richest family, also use poison. There are many other connections.

Poisons are, in my opinion, opposed to the 'hard power' side of the game of thrones. They are considered unmanly. You cannot defeat them with skill at arms or by being a good commander. They do not care about your skill in battle or how many swords you can call upon.

I think in this respect the Red Wedding is interesting as Tywin considers it to fall into the 'soft power' category, using influence to quietly silence a few targets, when in reality it was a 'hard power' action, as lots of people died and they were killed with swords and other weapons. They were not killed 'softly' or quietly. In contrast the Purple Wedding is a successful 'soft power' operation as only the target dies and the perpetrators are not suspected. Would the red wedding have been more successful if the guests were just poisoned instead?

'Needle' could even suggest a syringe needle, to inject poison. Could Arya use a poisoned needle like Oberyn did with his spear? Could there even be a Sleeping Beauty connection? She pricks her finger on the needle part of a spindle (at least in the animated film). Alyssa crying forever could be linked to the intended eternal sleep of the princess. Do we know if the flow of the waterfall stops during winter?

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On 5/9/2022 at 5:55 AM, Braavosi Citizen said:

Poisons are, in my opinion, opposed to the 'hard power' side of the game of thrones. They are considered unmanly.

This is a really important point about poisons - or the perception of poisons - in ASOIAF: the wiki says that there is a general sense that poisons are used by "cravens, eunuchs, bastards and women," as well as the "debauched of the Free Cities." In other words, people who don't use swords or other iron weapons. 

I suppose there is a certain logic in poison being the lethal option available to a woman, when so few women in Westeros are given the opportunity to use a dagger or sword. 

Your compare/contrast of the Red and Purple Weddings also seems apt: we see Joffrey (but not Margaery) receive many gifts before his death, which might be part of the "Gift" as poison wordplay. I've long wondered whether Joffrey's death was a sort of Murder On the Orient Express killing, with (spoiler alert) many people having motives and many people participating in the murder. Each "gift" may have been an ingredient in the potion that killed the king.

Tyrion gives Joffrey a book but Joffrey indicates that he would rather have a dagger as a groom's gift. Tyrion is soon accused of poisoning Joffrey. But Joffrey did receive a sword from Tywin. Are we supposed to see the sword vs. the poison as a duel of some kind between Tyrion and Tywin? Or were Tywin and Tyrion both ready to get rid of the troublesome king? Tywin later dies when Tyrion shoots him, but there is strong suspicion among readers that Tywin had also been poisoned. Is this a second example of a sword vs. poison conflict? (If Tywin was poisoned, I wonder whether the poison was delivered by Shea, who had seduced Tywin in order to get close enough to deliver the dose but who was still loyal to Tyrion?) 

There's something going on at Joffrey's wedding feast that could lay out the relationship of poisons and swords, but I can't quite put my finger on it. 

On 5/9/2022 at 5:55 AM, Braavosi Citizen said:

'Needle' could even suggest a syringe needle, to inject poison.

I love this! I think there is an anagram involving "antibodies" hidden in the phrase, "the maesters call it obsidian." There is a great ASOIAF "miasma" theory tying ASOIAF to the real-world history of public health and the role of a doctor named Jon Snow who helped to advance the understanding of how disease spreads. In this approach to analyzing underlying meanings, I think that dragonglass will be the "white blood cells" or inoculation that allows humans to defeat the Others, who symbolize a pandemic disease invading Westeros. (Yes, GRRM was prescient.) 

Many swords in ASOIAF are part of the Ice / eyes wordplay, but maybe we will start to see more wordplay around Arya's Needle when she retrieves it from its hiding place. Or maybe her "prayer" list represents her work to defeat the "infection" that was unleashed when she freed Rorge, Biter and Jaqen from their cage. Or maybe the needle metaphor will be clearer if we see more characters putting obsidian to use as a weapon. 

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On 5/9/2022 at 5:55 AM, Braavosi Citizen said:

'Needle' could even suggest a syringe needle, to inject poison.

I like this as well since Jon instructs her to stick them with the pointy end.  Given that the FM make and use poisons; Needle is an effective delivery system for getting between armor plates or chainmail. 

On 5/8/2022 at 11:52 AM, Seams said:

Please share your thoughts on the deeper meanings of poisons and potions in ASOIAF.

I've been wondering about the hallucinogenic properties of poisons.  In particular mushrooms or fungi.  I wonder is the weirwood nut is actually a mushroom.  The red and white description of the paste reminds me of amanita muscaria.  Lucid dreaming is one such affect it can have when ingested.  Or perhaps, Tyrion's mushroom.

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A Dance with Dragons - Tyrion I

The empty flagon slipped from his hand and rolled across the yard. Tyrion pushed himself off the bench and went to fetch it. As he did, he saw some mushrooms growing up from a cracked paving tile. Pale white they were, with speckles, and red-ribbed undersides dark as blood. The dwarf snapped one off and sniffed it. Delicious, he thought, and deadly.

There is also a rare purple mushroom and shade of the evening comes to mind.  Mushrooms are usually grown in the dark or at night.

Edit: There is also an inkcap mushroom which breaks down into an inky substance.  Also known as tippler's bane if mixed with alcohol.

Dany describes the shade of the evening:

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A Clash of Kings - Daenerys IV

"One flute will serve only to unstop your ears and dissolve the caul from off your eyes, so that you may hear and see the truths that will be laid before you."

Dany raised the glass to her lips. The first sip tasted like ink and spoiled meat, foul, but when she swallowed it seemed to come to life within her. She could feel tendrils spreading through her chest, like fingers of fire coiling around her heart, and on her tongue was a taste like honey and anise and cream, like mother's milk and Drogo's seed, like red meat and hot blood and molten gold. It was all the tastes she had ever known, and none of them . . . and then the glass was empty.

Mushrooms grow out of Bloodraven's brow and cheeks:

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

A spray of dark red leaves sprouted from his skull, and grey mushrooms spotted his brow. A little skin remained, stretched across his face, tight and hard as white leather, but even that was fraying, and here and there the brown and yellow bone beneath was poking through.

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

The sight of him still frightened Bran—the weirwood roots snaking in and out of his withered flesh, the mushrooms sprouting from his cheeks, the white wooden worm that grew from the socket where one eye had been. He liked it better when the torches were put out. In the dark he could pretend that it was the three-eyed crow who whispered to him and not some grisly talking corpse.

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran III

Under the hill they still had food to eat. A hundred kinds of mushrooms grew down here.

The COTF must certainly know a thing or two about mushrooms and their properties.

Edit: I don't think weirwoods produce a flower, fruit or a nut.  I think they prpagate through the roots like mushrooms.  Mushrooms growing on Weirwoods or around them would be the only fruit or nut they produce.

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On the subject of the weirwood paste, could it be that the weirwood paste Bran consumed was fermented or rotting? Or could it be mixed with some sort of mushroom to add to or intensify the hallucinogenic effect? Perhaps the link to mushrooms could hint at the poisoned nature of Bran's gift. I agree there is quiet likely a connection with Tyrion's mushrooms. They are almost like a reverse fly agaric, white, speckled and with a red underside that is ribbed, according to the wiki.

Often brightly coloured animals and plants are poisonous, the bright colouration is a warning to other animals not to eat them.

I think that mushrooms don't need sunlight to grow, so they could have potentially been an important food source during the long night.

I find the Jon Snow - John Snow link very interesting. I think disease will play an important role in the later books, both literally and metaphorically. Jon Connington could start a greyscale epidemic. Those infected with greyscale turn into stone men. We could also argue that the wights are those who have been 'infected' by the others. The wights are trying to kill people so the others can create more wights, as a virus infects a healthy cell to replicate and infect more cells. Can the others reproduce on their own, or do they need humans to do it? Old Nan has a story about them having children with human women, which could suggest that they need humans to reproduce. We also have Craster giving his sons to the others.

John Snow helped prevent the spread of cholera, which is a bacteria, however. So it could be that the others are more of a bacterial infection that a viral infection. Cholera causes dehydration. The others could also cause dehydration by freezing water so it is no longer drinkable. 

 

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1 hour ago, Braavosi Citizen said:

I find the Jon Snow - John Snow link very interesting. I think disease will play an important role in the later books, both literally and metaphorically. Jon Connington could start a greyscale epidemic. Those infected with greyscale turn into stone men. We could also argue that the wights are those who have been 'infected' by the others. The wights are trying to kill people so the others can create more wights, as a virus infects a healthy cell to replicate and infect more cells. Can the others reproduce on their own, or do they need humans to do it? Old Nan has a story about them having children with human women, which could suggest that they need humans to reproduce. We also have Craster giving his sons to the others.

John Snow helped prevent the spread of cholera, which is a bacteria, however. So it could be that the others are more of a bacterial infection that a viral infection. Cholera causes dehydration. The others could also cause dehydration by freezing water so it is no longer drinkable. 

I think we are supposed to compare the features exhibited by wights with those of greyscale / the stone men. They are very similar. Also the pale mare, very close to cholera in its symptoms  is in line with  your observation on the Other's causing dehydration by freezing water - the body is composed of about 70% water and it's likely their ice magic literally freezes the blood of their victims. The dehydrating aspect is evident in the description we get of the dusty dry blood Sam notices on Jafer Flowers torn hand. I wrote a piece on this subject years ago, posted to my blog. Essentially its on the role of water magic in resurrection, as well as greyscale, the pale mare and the butterfly fever of Naath as clues to the killing mechanics of the Others. 

 

On 5/8/2022 at 5:52 PM, Seams said:

Is The Strangler linked to The Stranger?

Yes, I would say. In her undeath, Lady Stoneheart is an aspect of the Stranger. She is also known as "the Hangwoman" and she has her victims killed by hanging, basically strangling and choking to death, much like the Strangler poison. Ultimately, the "strangling" theme is linked to the cutting of tongues in the sense that it prevents one from speaking and singing - the subject we were discussing in the Maimed Singers thread. 

 

On 5/8/2022 at 5:52 PM, Seams said:

More wordplay, through the "almost anagrams" that seem to be a thing in ASOIAF: is "venom" related to "lemon"? Are they opposites?

Not sure about venom linked to lemon. But venom is connected to milk. Oberyn milks snakes for their venom. Darkstar says he was weaned on venom. Sweetsleep is a gentle poison that will grant dreamless sleep in minute quantities but three pinches will kill. Sweetrobin is given sweetsleep mixed in his milk and it can be disguised in cakes and sweets because of its sweet taste. Since Lysa used the Tears of Lys to kill her husband I've been wondering if her breastmilk was unwholesome, causing her son's shaking sickness (lysis = cell dissolution or rapture in biology), with sweetsleep in small doses counteracting the effect. 

And after reading @LynnS reply with the interesting observations on mushrooms, could it be that poisonous mushrooms are essential to greenseeing - to be able to "fly"? Bloodraven is slowly wasting away over time but is kept alive by the tree, or rather his consiousness is kept alive, his body is all but dead. Bran then eating regular doses of weirwood paste which might contain said mushrooms could  be immune to the poison? Or as I suspect with Sweetrobin, the paste might contain an antidote? Melisandre was immune to Maester Cressens poisoned wine, by the power of her Red God she said. Qyburn brought Gregor back to life after he was poisoned. Was the poison an ingredient essential to the resurrection process? Plenty of food for thought. 

 

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On 5/8/2022 at 5:52 PM, Seams said:

I was pondering Tears of Lys and Alyssa's Tears. One is a poison with the following description in the Wiki:

It’s difficult to interpret the poisons in a straightforward way. There are many layers of symbolism to wade through. Safe to say we are supposed to connect tears and weeping with Lys and with poison. Perhaps we can also assume that a woman who has been greatly wronged or suffered extreme abuse at the hands of another might resort to poison as a weapon and that this has some deeper significance in the story.  
Alyssa and the Weeping Lady of Lys are opposites and yet the same – two sides of the same coin with two different outcomes played out by Catelyn and Lysa. The waterfall flows / weeps on the one hand and turns into a ghostly mist on the other. Alyssa never wept when her family was massacred and despite the god’s decree, her tears vaporize before reaching the ground indicating she is not at rest in death.

Catelyn mirrors Alyssa, the misty part of the waterfall. She believed most of her loved ones dead and never allowed herself to grieve in life. In death she knows no rest, still shedding no tears, opting for vengeance, with hanging / strangling her favoured method of bringing death. In contrast, Lysa uses poison in the form of the Tears of Lys to rid herself off her own husband and unlike her sister, often weeps. The anguish she felt all her life pours out of her moments before her demise. The weeping statue in the garden, now toppled, its torse broken in two, mirrors Lysa in her death by way of the moon door and also connects her to the Weeping Lady of Lys through her name and the use of the Tears of Lys as an instrument of death.   

In the House of Black and White, the Weeping Lady of Lys stands among the 30 other gods of death, her silver tears trickling into a bowl. She is a favourite of old women, of crones. As a goddess of death, the tears likely represent her instrument of bringing death, hence the “Tears of Lys.” Arya passes by the weeping lady on her way to her first assassination job, poisoned gold coin stashed on her person and our attention is drawn to the statue just as Arya passes by.

 

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The statue outside the shrine of the Weeping Lady of Lys was crying silver tears as the ugly girl walked by. In the Gardens of Gelenei stood a gilded tree a hundred feet high with leaves of hammered silver. Torchlight glimmered behind windows of leaded glass in the Lord of Harmony’s wooden hall, showing half a hundred kinds of butterflies in all their bright colors.

The silver gilded tree could be a reference to this version of Snow White which involves a mother named “Silver Tree” poisoning her daughter named “Gold Tree” with a poisoned thorn. Hammered silver suggests a beating that would lead to weeping. Some species of the butterflies of Naath are thought to cause the horrible Butterfly Disease, its symptoms may denote poisoning.

 

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Fever is the first sign of this plague, followed by painful spasms that make it seem as if victims are dancing wildly and uncontrollably. In the last stage, the afflicted sweat blood, and their flesh sloughs from their bones.

tWoIaF

There is no weeping here but the victims sweat blood. Some real world poisons cause uncontrollable restlessness, agitation and seizures or spasms. This suggests the butterflies are poisonous rather than carriers of a microbial disease. So Arya passes a goddess, a tree and the butterflies in the Lord of Harmony’s hall, all three associated with poison and is on her way to poison someone herself. Of note – Arya wears the face of a girl who was brutally beaten by her father, which ties into the suffering of the weeping woman. She also hates her victim’s twitching hands which are always restless, reminding her of two white spiders. The man’s “office” is in the Purple Harbor. These elements – purple, spiders, the girl who suffered and the poison also relate to Sansa. The beatings and cruelties she endured, the hairnet like a silvery spiderweb with black amethysts from Asshai that are a deep purple by daylight:

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Ser Dontos fumbled in his pouch and drew out a silvery spiderweb, dangling it between his thick fingers. It was a hair net of fine-spun silver, the strands so thin and delicate the net seemed to weigh no more than a breath of air when Sansa took it in her fingers. Small gems were set wherever two strands crossed, so dark they drank the moonlight. “What stones are these?” “Black amethysts from Asshai. The rarest kind, a deep true purple by daylight.”

The Harbor is also relevant because the hairnet with the poisoned stones are her ticket out of King’s Landing to a safer harbor:

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It’s magic, you see. It’s justice you hold. It’s vengeance for your father.” Dontos leaned close and kissed her again. “It’s home.”

But is it really justice and home? A harbor is a safe haven for ships but Purple Harbor is not always a safe haven for the families of Arya’s victim’s clients because he does not always pay out the insurance due them when a husband or father is lost at sea. He does not honor debts owed. The Eyrie is at best a dubious harbor for Sansa. And Littlefinger is akin to the man who does not honor debts. As master of coin, he borrowed millions, running up the crown’s debt, leaving others to pay up. LF chews mint and is pretty good at “minting coins.”

With her strangling of Freys and Lannisters likely analogous to the Strangler poison, Lady Stoneheart is also part of  the connection.

Alyssa or the weeping woman of the Eyrie stands in the garden in place of a weirwood, her tears linking her to the red tears of the weirwoods. 

Another link to “weeping” and poison comes by way of Ramsay:

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“Yes, m’lord. Domeric. I … I have heard his name …”Ramsay killed him. A sickness of the bowels, Maester Uthor says, but I say poison. In the Vale, Domeric had enjoyed the company of Redfort’s sons. He wanted a brother by his side, so he rode up the Weeping Water to seek my bastard out. I forbade it, but Domeric was a man grown and thought that he knew better than his father.

Domeric rides up the Weeping Water (a river) and dies of a sickness of the bowels (symptoms of the Tears of Lys) or poison.

Ramsay abuses his wife to the extent that she lives in fear of him. Jeyne Poole cries lakes of tears, her weeping is no secret in Winterfell. Her back is crisscrossed with a spiderweb of scars from whippings she received in Littlefinger’s brothel.  

 

Back in Essos, prostitutes are brandmarked with a tear under the eye. The sickness of the bowels is called the Pale Mare, brought to Meereen by a man mounted on a pale female horse. The illness quickly spreads through Dany’s freedmen, killing hundreds within a few days. Note that “mare” in Latin is the sea, from mori – a body of water. Also Old English mare – incubus, nightmare, monster, from the PIE root mer – to harm, die.

 

What to make of all this? My educated guess is that the author is showing us how the Others mass kill and perhaps even raise the dead through the ritual rape and abuse of women whose suffering poisons their tears which are vaporized and carried on the winds to exterminate the living. Like Ramsay, the Others hunted maidens through the forests and Ramsay’s treatment of the women is well known to us. And a final thought – perhaps the Others don’t even need to do this. Maybe this ritual can be carried out successfully by men. Men like Ramsay, Euron and Craster.

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I’ve done some more digging into the motif of tears and poison plus further connections I had seen before but could not really put in context to the rest. I’ll also offer an explanation as to why I think tears, poisoning and the suffering or abuse and rape of women are linked to raising the dead.

To recap my last post in a nutshell – Alyssa’s Tears are linked to both Catelyn and Lysa, Catelyn being that part of the “ghost torrent” of the waterfall that does not weep and does not rest in death, rising instead to wreak vengeance. Having her victims choked to death by hanging links Lady Stoneheart to the “strangler” poison. Lysa symbolizes  tears in their poisonous aspect through her use of the “Tears of Lys.” Further we have symbolism surrounding and connecting female characters who suffer, including tears or the lack thereof, the colour purple, spiders, poison and “safe” harbors (as in Arya and Sansa, and to some extent Jeyne Poole. Tully colors, red and blue, yield purple when mixed.  

The statue of the Weeping Lady of Lys being in the temple of the Many Faced God of death suggests she is a goddess of death and that her tears are poisoned or bring death. Noteworthy also in the context of the abuse of women is that the Lion of Night statue is mentioned right after the Weeping Lady. The free city of Lys, also known as Lys the Lovely, is famous for its bed slaves, both male and female. Slaves are bought as well as bred for the pillow houses. The Lyseni are very close to the Old Valyrians in looks – purple, lilac or pale blue eyes, pale skin and silver-gold hair. The alchemists of Lys manufacture poisons, including the strangler and the tears of Lys. According to Glydayn, the Lyseni fight with plots and poisons, rather than with armies:

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Amongst the Lyseni, it is truly said, wars are fought with plots and poisons rather than with armies.

Lysa fought with “plots and poisons,” so does Arya who hatches a poison-plot for her first assignment as a faceless woman. Sansa is also involved in the plot to poison Joffery.

Another interesting quote comes from Yandal:

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To this day, Lys remains "a feast for the senses, a balm for the soul." Its pillow houses are famed through all the world, and sunsets here are said to be more beautiful than anywhere else on earth.

Balm for the soul – balm is an anagram of lamb which is significant here, the lamb being a sacrificial animal. A lamb for a soul – a sacrifice for a soul. Lys is a “feast” for the senses and sunsets are also highlighted, sunsets of course precede nightfall. In Essos in general, prostitutes are branded with a tear under the eye and despite the effusive descriptions of Lys, we can be certain that the bed slaves do not enjoy self determined joyful lives; quite the contrary.

In Qarth, Dany meets the Pureborn who along with other Qartheen are able to weep at will, weeping considered a mark of a civilized person. The Pureborn, named Milk Men (a possible nod at the Others) by the Dothraki are apparently also fond of using poisons:

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Dany’s tight silver collar was chafing against her throat. She unfastened it and flung it aside. The collar was set with an enchanted amethyst that Xaro swore would ward her against all poisons. The Pureborn were notorious for offering poisoned wine to those they thought dangerous, but they had not given Dany so much as a cup of water.

Another element we see in connection with tears and poisons is silver. The Weeping Lady cries silver tears, Alyssa’s Tears are a shining silver thread. The silver collar with the enchanted amethyst echoes Sansa’s silver spiderweb hairnet with the amethyst strangler gens, only this collar is supposed to be a ward. It identifies her with Sansa, whose poisoned hairnet brought death. Dany finds it too tight – it chaffs her throat, recalling strangling and she flings it aside. The dragon does not weep.

Another parallel to the tears and poison motif comes by way of the poisonous manticore and the Sorrowful Men. These Qarthi assassins are twice associated with weeping by the fact that they are from Qarth where people weep at will and the sorrow they express towards their victims. The manticore gets even more interesting when we add Amory Lorch whose sigil is a manticore into the mix. Cremation is a complete anagram of manticore. Lorch was torn apart by a bear and initially I wondered where the connection could be. Well, the implication becomes clear if you consider that wights are only finally “put to rest” when they are cremated or when they are torn apart and have their bones cracked by hacking to pieces with a weapon or by an animal such as a bear, a shadowcat or a wolf.

 

Obara’s Story:

Obara tells Doran Martell how Oberyn claimed her from her mother:

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The day my father came to claim me, my mother did not wish for me to go. 'She is a girl,' she said, 'and I do not think that she is yours. I had a thousand other men.' He tossed his spear at my feet and gave my mother the back of his hand across the face, so she began to weep. 'Girl or boy, we fight our battles,' he said, 'but the gods let us choose our weapons.' He pointed to the spear, then to my mother's tears, and I picked up the spear. 'I told you she was mine,' my father said, and took me. My mother drank herself to death within the year. They say that she was weeping as she died.

 

Noteworthy in this symbolism is that though Obara’s mother dies, she has given birth to a sand snake, snakes associated with poison. I looked up sand snakes. They are burrowing reptiles, a species of boa, not poisonous, but they suffocate their victims by constriction, bringing us back to the strangling theme. Obara carries a spear, but also a whip which can be used to strangle (revisit Viserys). The motif of drinking is also important, though I have not quite figured out that yet. My guess is that drinking is related to drowning and also important to the raising process. Consumed excessively, alcohol of course poisons the body over time.

This narrative of the spear and the tears mirrors the Giant’s Lance and Alyssa’s Tears at the Eyrie imo. It also clarifies what happens to those who weep and do not fight back. They despair and die of grief. On the other hand, those who reject tears and grief in favor of choosing their own weapons live to fight another day, for vengeance, like Obara and her Sand Snake sisters, Arya, Lady Stoneheart and Sansa, whose courtesy is her armour and who learns to play the game. And Dany of course whose dragon is her weapon. Oberyn was well versed in the art of producing poisons and Tyene takes after her father, poison being her chosen weapon (Tyene’s features are similar to the Lyseni).

 

The courtesans of Braavos

Amongst those who “reject grief” and choose their own weapons are the courtesans of Braavos. While the ordinary whore is worthy of contempt and without status, the beautiful courtesans are highly sought after. Men will pay an arm and a leg to spend a night with them. Basically, the courtesans have achieved what Tyrion advises Jon to do:

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Let me give you some counsel, bastard. Never forget what you are, for surely the world will not. Make it your strength. Then it can never be your weakness. Armor yourself in it, and it will never be used to hurt you.

The courtesans have made their profession their strength and in doing so have achieved elevated status amongst their peers as well as in society. I daresay there is a relationship between “courtesan” and Sansa being “armored in courtesy.” The Black Pearl is the most famous of all. She descended from the first Black Pearl, the Pirate Queen who was Aegon the Unworthy’s mistress. I take “Pirate Queen” to be another version of “Night Queen.” Further, her real name is Bellegere Otherys and of course there is more wordplay going on here. Otherys requires no further explanation. Bellegere puts me in mind of the herb Belladonna – nightshade – which has medicinal properties but is lethal in high doses.  Belladonna means “beautiful woman” while Bellegere can be translated as “desirable beauty.” The courtesans are desirable and beautiful and the motif is related to women who become concubines to rich and powerful men, such as Lynesse Hightower, former wife of Jorah. 

 

Now to the idea that a woman’s tears or grief represents the poison that is an ingredient in a ritual aimed at raising the dead.

 

So far we’ve witnessed Catelyn’s unexpressed grief over the loss of Ned and her children and her immediate anguish over Robb’s murder which fuels her vengeance in undeath. Her emotions are poisoned by grief, she remembers and enacts retribution by transferring this “poison” to the victims she hangs.

Gregor Clegane was poisoned by Oberyn and is brought back to life by Qyburn. The text suggests the experiments he conducted to revive Clegane somehow involved Lady Falyse. Lady Falyse was in great distress, weeping uncontrollably when she came seeking help and refuge from Cersei. Bronn had killed her husband in a duel, kicked her out, assumed the title “Lord Stokeworth” and usurped control over House Stokeworth. Recall her daughter Lollys was raped half a hundred times during the riot at King’s Landing. The name Stokeworth can be interpreted as “worthy of being stoked” as in a fire, to stoke a fire. The Stokeworth sigil depicts a white lamb holding a golden goblet on a green field and I believe the golden goblet (cup, chalice) symbolizes blood, golden blood, recalling the golden blood and together with the name Stokeworth, the fire, of Old Valyria. The blood ties back to the weeping statue in the garden at the Eyrie which is crafted from “veined marble.” After Qyburn  is finished with her, Lady Falyse is broken, no longer capable of anything. She’s as broken as Lysa and the statue itself. In biology, the word lysis refers to the breaking up of cells. It is also part of dialysis. Qyburn may have used her sacred or godly blood to revive Clegane. Or he may have used her life fires, or both.

The connection to fire / poison is also echoed by the Black Pearl who descends from Aegon the Unworthy (golden blood of Valyria) and in case we missed that, she also asks Arya for hot-sauce to eat with her fresh cockles. And to Catelyn, Lysa and Sansa, all “kissed by fire”.

 

Dany’s vision in the house of the Undying

Dany’s first vision in the House of the Undying and her last experience of the Undying feeding on her life fires while she lies helpless and unable to move or stop it, illustrate the ravaging of a beautiful woman (the four servitors raping the woman and chewing on her breasts) which ends in the Undying attempting to use her life-force to rejuvenate themselves. But the Undying are not the only ones to do so. Her “children,” her freed slaves also feed on her, indeed, they feed on her before the Undying:

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Ten thousand slaves lifted bloodstained hands as she raced by on her silver, riding like the wind. “Mother!” they cried, “mother, mother!” They were reaching for her, touching her, tugging at her cloak, the hem of her skirt, her foot, her leg, her breast. They wanted her, needed her, the fire, the life, and Dany gasped and opened her arms to give herself to them

The Undying were all around her, blue and cold, whispering as they reached for her, pulling, stroking, tugging at her clothes, touching her with their dry cold hands, twining their fingers through her hair. All the strength had left her limbs. She could not move. Even her heart had ceased to beat. She felt a hand on her bare breast, twisting her nipple. Teeth found the soft skin of her throat. A mouth descended on one eye, licking, sucking, biting

 

Sucking, licking, biting ... should remind us of leeches and the Leech Lord but I digress. The image of the freed slaves feeding on Dany’s life correlates with wights who are slaves to their supposed Other masters, being fed an unnatural life source. Daenerys gave up weeping on the Dothraki Sea after her dragon guiding spirit strengthened her through dreams (through her "one eye, her third eye." Her personal weapon, Drogon, saved her from serving as the source of new life for the Undying. She drank Shade of the Evening however, and even though we do not know what it contains, diverse slow acting poisons are likely components, first granting visions and later possibly paralyzing her. Two attempts have been made to poison Dany. That the Undying waited for her for a thousand years suggests she probably has enough life force for thousands and if used for such a purpose could raise an unparalleled army of the dead (Dany of course being the golden blood of Valyria, the kingsblood etc. etc.).
 

Exchanging a woman for an army acquires a whole new additional meaning in this regard. It applies to Viserys exchanging Dany for a Dothraki army – note Viserys tells her he would let Drogo’s entire army rape her if that was the price for said army. The analogy also applies to Renly / Margary, Joff / Margary, Robb/Frey alliance, Theon’s promise to let Ramsay have the kennel girl as a reward for bringing him fighting men.

The bookending of the woman being ravaged by dwarf servitors and the feeding of the Undying on Dany’s life force in the House of the Undying is the closest example we have regarding brutalized women as conduits of magic to raise the dead.  

There is one more thing worth mentioning here: the case of the cut-off nipple we observe with Khal Drogo as well as with the unsullied soldier.

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“My sun-and-stars is wounded.” The arakh cut was wide but shallow; his left nipple was gone, and a flap of bloody flesh and skin dangled from his chest like a wet rag.

A missing nipple likely denotes no longer being able to suck at the mother’s breast – the mother who gives life through her milk and like Daenerys who gives the fire of life back to the Undying. The flap of bloody flesh from which the severed nipple hangs is akin to the “thread of magic” that flows from the woman (the mother) to the dead. With only one nipple, the connection to the source of magic is incomplete, implying that the dead person cannot be fully raised from the dead with all the qualities that make life worth living intact. This is demonstrated by the only partially successful raising of Drogo. Note that poison is also involved in Drogo’s death – his wound turned septic, causing blood poisoning.

 

Mythological, historical context for raising the dead through grief:

The ritual lament in ancient Greek Tradition informs us on the connection between grief, lamenting, weeping and the raising of the dead. In ancient Greece, the funeral lament was a highly ritualized ceremony carried out by women only. At death, a female chief mourner led a group of female relatives in mourning the dead person. Pronounced wailing, weeping, shrieking, tearing of clothes and hair and other forms of self-mutilation such as scratching the face accompanied the preparation of the body for burial. Historians believe that the lament functioned as a kind of half-spoken song in conjunction with movement, dance.

This state of ritualized grief was thought of as a “conversation with the dead,” invoking a liminal state that opened a portal between the living and the dead. Also as stated in the article titled “Sacred Songs for the Dead”:

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As time went on, the role of female song leader would serve as the predecessor to an occult offshoot, the goes, who used song as a vehicle to transcend mortal constraints. Under the goes, funeral songs were no longer songs: they were spells, used to lure the dead back to earth. The goes was akin to a witch, due to her supernatural powers; she had even mastered the art of necromancy and could temporarily bring corpses back to life. (Source)

I feel GRRM has drawn on this piece of ancient history in respect of the magic used to fuel the raising of a large number of dead. Further, the extreme expression of grief enacted by the funeral women was also thought to incite anger and retribution, especially if the deceased was slain or a victim of murder. By the sixth century, this tradition was toned down by law and subsequently banned by the patriarchs – men excluded from the ceremony - taking away the woman’s role in death and in effect, silencing the female voice. We note the parallel to the Silent Sisters of the Faith in the narrative who are responsible for attending to and preparing the dead, women who are silenced because they are required to take a vow of silence. I’ve provided some links to the ritual lament below.

 

In this context, George Martin has also been inspired by Alice Walker’s novel, “The Color Purple,” in my opinion.  The protagonist, Celie, is a fourteen year old black girl from an impoverished family in Georgia. She is regularly beaten and raped by her father and bears his child, the baby presumably killed by her father in the woods. Her next child, a boy is also taken away by her father. Celie is initially unable to defend herself against abuse and resorts to writing letters to God. As time goes on she interacts with other women and through these relationships finds her own voice, gains  independence and achieves a measure of self-determination. Literary devices used include sewing and quilting (patchwork). Sewing empowers her to gain material independence while the patchwork quilt symbolizes diverse people coming together in unity. Color is used to signify Celie’s transformation from drab (dark colors) to empowered (bright colors), culminating in the color purple with her religious awakening. She marvels how she never noticed the wonders that God has made, such as “the color purple.” You’ll find a synopsis complete with themes, motifs and symbols here. One of my favorite books. 

 

Like Celie's journey, the weeping women of aSoIaF undergo a transformation from victimization to empowerment. In the context of my interpretation, the abused weeping woman who serves as a conduit of magic to raise the dead gradually transforms to an empowered one. Using her own weapon, she turns on her tormenter, killing him instead. The color purple is an expression of this empowerment, represented by the purple Valyrian eyes, the poisonous purple amethysts, the Black Pearl of Braavos and Braavos itself, the bastard daughter of Valyria that broke free of the chain of slavery (the snail found by the Braavosi yielded dark purple dye, which the Braavosi used to color the sails of the ships the founders had stolen from the Valyrians. They paint their hulls purple too).

The uniting element of patchwork can also be observed in aSoIaF where it also serves as a metaphor for transformation. And of course, sewing / and sowing is a theme as well.

There’s much more to this investigation, especially the significance of the lamb, the Lamb People from whom Mirri Maaz Durr hails (and the fact that she engages in returning Drogo back to the living), the lamb as a sacrifice to empower necromantic magic, Robb holding a leg of lamb and looking at Dany, a giver of the fire of life, in mute appeal (knowing in death that she is capable of giving him back his life?). Jeyne Westerling who grieves over her dead husband, fighting her mother, holding on to her crown and tearing her clothes.. I personally believe Jeyne will play a major role in raising Robb from his death bed. I’m also pondering the Bolton practice of flaying which might be an extreme device designed to heighten the anguish and increase the “tears” of women designated to fuel necromantic magic.

 

One last thought on silver and gold coinage and for example, the account of Tysha being raped by Tywin’s garrison and paid a silver coin by each man and her rape by Tyrion who pays a gold dragon because he is “worth more.” If we think of whores and other suitable women such as Dany in terms of opening portals to channel magical energy to raise the dead, then the coinage represents the mythological obolus paid to ferry the dead into the underworld, or in this case, the obolus paid to ferry the dead back to life. The many silver coins paid are reserved for the many undead, while the gold coins are the price paid for persons of importance being returned. Significant then, that Dany is the ”coin” paid by Viserys for his Dothraki army (can’t find the exact quote at the moment), or that Brienne who hails from Tarth, the Sapphire Isle, ruled from Evenfall Hall is worth a bag of sapphires (sapphires also the blue star eyes of the Others).

My thanks to @Seams and other posters in this thread for reviving my interest in the topic and spurring me on to taking a closer look. :) The picture is not complete but we’re getting there.

 

References to the Greek Ritual Lament:

Sacred Songs for the Dead

Shaping the Pain: Ancient Greek Lament and Its Therapeutic Aspect

On Ancient Greek Lamentation And Women In Democracy

 

Summary of “The Color Purple” by Alice Walker

 

Related to this topic is my study of Pearl Maidens in aSoIaF, posted in two parts some years ago to my blog:

The Pearl Inheritance

The Fisher Queens of the Silver Sea

 

 

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I keep coming back to this thread, intending to reply to the many good insights in the comments. This time I will try to actually respond.

On 5/14/2022 at 8:02 PM, Evolett said:

It’s difficult to interpret the poisons in a straightforward way. There are many layers of symbolism to wade through.

Yes! This what I am finding, especially as I absorb your good observations and interpretations. I keep thinking of related ideas that seem to make the topic MORE complex. I guess that's why forums are a good place for discussing these books. We can keep coming back as our thoughts evolve.

On 5/14/2022 at 8:02 PM, Evolett said:

Alyssa and the Weeping Lady of Lys are opposites and yet the same – two sides of the same coin with two different outcomes played out by Catelyn and Lysa. The waterfall flows / weeps on the one hand and turns into a ghostly mist on the other. Alyssa never wept when her family was massacred and despite the god’s decree, her tears vaporize before reaching the ground indicating she is not at rest in death.

Catelyn mirrors Alyssa, the misty part of the waterfall. She believed most of her loved ones dead and never allowed herself to grieve in life. In death she knows no rest, still shedding no tears, opting for vengeance, with hanging / strangling her favoured method of bringing death. In contrast, Lysa uses poison in the form of the Tears of Lys to rid herself off her own husband and unlike her sister, often weeps. The anguish she felt all her life pours out of her moments before her demise. The weeping statue in the garden, now toppled, its torse broken in two, mirrors Lysa in her death

What if the broken torso of the weeping woman statue represents both the "split" of the weeping that never reaches the ground, and the split between Catelyn and Lysa? Lysa will fall from the Eyrie but we never witness her impact or hear about the recovery of her remains - perhaps similar to the tears that never reach the ground. Catelyn will be thrown in a river but will rise again to become Lady Stoneheart - an animate statue of a sort, although "animate" may not be the right word.

Catelyn wanted to cry but does not cry, as you point out:

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I want you safe, Robb, ruling at Winterfell from your father's seat. I want you to live your life, to kiss a girl and wed a woman and father a son. I want to write an end to this. I want to go home, my lords, and weep for my husband." (AGoT, Catelyn XI)

So Lysa using Tears of Lys to kill Jon Arryn and Lady Stoneheart using "strangling" (part of the Strangler motif) could show us two different poisons for the two different sisters. 

On 5/22/2022 at 9:23 AM, Evolett said:

Another interesting quote comes from Yandal:

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To this day, Lys remains "a feast for the senses, a balm for the soul." Its pillow houses are famed through all the world, and sunsets here are said to be more beautiful than anywhere else on earth.

Balm for the soul – balm is an anagram of lamb which is significant here, the lamb being a sacrificial animal. A lamb for a soul – a sacrifice for a soul. Lys is a “feast” for the senses and sunsets are also highlighted, sunsets of course precede nightfall. In Essos in general, prostitutes are branded with a tear under the eye and despite the effusive descriptions of Lys, we can be certain that the bed slaves do not enjoy self determined joyful lives; quite the contrary.

I love, love, love all this. Delirious with joy! 

Maybe this Lys discussion is a good place to start talking about Good Queen Alysanne. Her name is part of the Alys / Alyssa / Alayne / Sansa group that seems to be connected on a symbolic level. I think Alysanne is a key figure in sorting out poisons and also connected to your "raising the dead" theory because:

1. She arranges for the Starks and their bannermen to expand "The Gift" to the Night's Watch. (For those just now joining us, this is notable for the pun using "Gift" which is the German word for poison.) 

2. Alysanne's estranged sister loses several close friends to poison delivered by her husband. Alysanne tries to help her sister but she is rejected. After her death, Alysanne's dragon, Silverwing, will eventually be ridden by a dragonseed, Ulf White. Ulf White will die after being poisoned. I also get this weird vibe that Alysanne might have helped with the mysterious death of King Maegor, who was supposedly killed by the Iron Throne. She was a kid at the time, but I suspect she was already developing her magical powers.

3. Alysanne loses two daughters in childbirth (one of them gives birth to a daughter for House Arryn). A third daughter is promiscuous and defies her parents by flying off to Lys to work as a prostitute in a pleasure garden. I think this all ties into the "raising the dead" theory because death and rebirth are linked in ASOIAF, so fertility, having sex, childbirth, infant mortality and maternal death in childbirth are all linked.

4. Alysanne's daughter Daenerys dies of plague; a niece, Aerea, dies of a mysterious illness; Viserra dies in a horse racing accident; and another daughter, Gael, commits suicide. Alyssa also loses several sons as infants and one adult son, Aemon, is killed by a pirate. I suspect each of these figures (or the nature of their deaths) has a separate symbolic purpose. Because Alysanne seems to be a fertility goddess, the deaths probably tie into the changing of the seasons or the cycle of plants - seeds, sprouts, flower, fruits, dropping leaves, compost.

5. Water. Pregnant Alysanne wants to bathe in Jonquil's pool and some septas try to stop her by assassination. She persuades her husband to build a clean drinking water system for King's Landing. She uses her own jewels to pay for a castle called Deep Lake at the Wall. Viserra's death came the night before she was scheduled to depart for White Harbor, where she was to marry into the Manderly family. This represents an alliance with a flowing river (House Manderly gets its name from he Mander River) and the wedding that does not take place is almost certainly linked to Alyssa's tears that never reach the ground. Alysanne's grandmother was a Massey. To me, the Massey sigil looks like an ancient Celtic version of the three forks of the Trident river. 

6. Rain. In keeping with the water and tear symbolism, Alysanne is closely associated with two "rain" figures: her estranged sister Rhaena (mother of Aerea) and her granddaughter Rhaenys, who was passed over as the heir of Jaehaerys because she was a girl. Sister Rhaena had been with Alysanne and Jaehaerys when the brother claimed the throne. I bet this is related to the larger set of water symbols and to the long drought at the center of The Sworn Sword story. Also in The Sworn Sword story: House Webber (associated with spider webs), rumors of poison (Egg refuses to drink anything while at Cold Moat but he also wants to learn about poisonous plants) and a woman whose babies repeatedly die in infancy (Lady Rohanne). The rain that falls at the end of The Sworn Sword may bring with it the restoration of fertility as we know that Lady Rohanne will go on to be the matriarch of House Lannister. 

7. Alysanne's hair was "honey colored" when she was young but it turned "white as snow" when she was older. Honey is associated with the "sweet" side of the "bitter/sweet" pair that crops up throughout the series. The Night's Watch renames the castle called Snow Gate, calling it Queen's Gate in her honor. Her dragon, Silverwing, was also taken over by a rider named Ulf White (who is eventually poisoned). White and silver are linked in ASOIAF because both colors are called "argent" when used in a sigil, which ties in to garnet and Targaryen symbolism and wordplay. You mention the silver tree and the Snow White story - this would seem to fit with the transformation of Alysanne's hair as well as her silver dragon. Instead of Alysanne being poisoned by her mother, I think she might be the poisoner - only death can pay for life, and she is trying to promote a new generation of life. Maegor may have been her first victim, pricked by a throne instead of a thorn. 

8. Her personal body guard was named Jonquil Darke, probably an allusion to "Jon" characters as well as "Dunk" (the German word for "dark" is "dunkel") but also the Darklyn family associated with the kings guard. (The "-quil" suffix could be an allusion to a "quill" used for writing or for a porcupine. House Penrose has quills in their sigil.)

9. Alysanne secured a law that outlawed the "first night" tradition of a Lord raping each new bride of his bannermen and small folk. You raised the possible association of poison with the rape and physical abuse of women. Maybe Alysanne's law shows that she is trying to reduce the amount of poison in the realm. I know many people are horrified by the sexual violence in ASOIAF. I am, too, but I realize the author is using it within his larger fertility, death and rebirth system of symbols. Perhaps his point with Alysanne's story is that the old system of seasons had to be replaced by a new system of seasons - one that did not involve rape of the earth; one that valued the role of women as equal partners (Alysanne's lifelong quest). Alysanne didn't quite succeed in achieving equality for women, so the seasons remain skewed and unpredictable, like a fertility cycle that is off-kilter. 

10. Red, blue and purple. Alysanne's dragon, Silverwing, witnesses the deaths of several dragons in the Dragon Pit and seems to mourn like a mother / sister. (More Alyssa's tears symbolism?) The dragon the flies to Red Lake which used to be called Blue Lake. There the dragon lives on an island and we don't know when or if she died. Red Lake is the seat of House Crane and Parmen Crane was the purple knight in Renly's Rainbow Guard. 

On 5/22/2022 at 9:23 AM, Evolett said:

This narrative of the spear and the tears mirrors the Giant’s Lance and Alyssa’s Tears at the Eyrie imo.

Brilliant! There is a famous poem by William Blake about God creating the tiger that is probably one of the literary inspirations for ASOIAF. (It includes a forge, flying, a hand that dares to seize fire, etc.). One line goes, "And when the stars threw down their spears, and watered heaven with their tears, did he smile, his work to see? Did he who made the lamb make thee?" So this tells us that spears and tears can co-exist but they can also be thrown or fall down together. And when that happens, the marvelous act of creation will be complete. (I think Ygritte is a tiger character, through the "almost" anagram wordplay. The word is spelled "tyger" in the poem.) And this brings in the lamb allusion you mentioned, too. Blake wrote another poem about a baby lamb. 

On 5/22/2022 at 9:23 AM, Evolett said:

Noteworthy in this symbolism is that though Obara’s mother dies, she has given birth to a sand snake, snakes associated with poison.

I think Obara probably links to the boar motif. Boars are present at the deaths of kings: Robert is killed by a boar; a boar's head is served at the Red Wedding; Borroq and his boar show up at Castle Black shortly before Jon Snow is stabbed. But pigs are probably linked to boars and I'm not sure exactly how or why. We know that pigs were the witnesses at Tyrion's wedding with Tysha and that Tyrion declines to ride a pig for Joffrey (who immediately dies of poison) but he does ride one to save his own life on the ship. Tyrion turns down a meal of suckling pig before the battle on the Green Fork, even though he is hungry. I think that the creepy little figures who suck at Dany's breasts are actually suckling pigs. 

Thanks for some really provocative ideas! I think we are making some breakthroughs that could help to link some symbols and get at deeper meaning. 

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P.S. "Tansy" is the poison used to induce abortion in ASOIAF. Another link to that fertility theme. 

But it is also one of the last words of Lysa and Catelyn's father, Hoster Tully. There is a "Three Sisters" symbol associated with Queen Alysanne that leads me to wonder whether there is a secret, third sister of Lysa and Catelyn, and her name is Tansy. This would give us a third poison associated with these sisters - Tears of Lys, the Strangler and Tansy.

I think the name Tansy is part of the group of names that includes Tanselle (the puppet girl in The Sworn Sword) and Nettles, the dragonseed who rides the dragon Sheep Stealer in the Dance of the Dragons. Nettles seems to escape to the Vale and we never hear if or when she dies. 

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Just a quick post because it's really late.

23 hours ago, Seams said:

So Lysa using Tears of Lys to kill Jon Arryn and Lady Stoneheart using "strangling" (part of the Strangler motif) could show us two different poisons for the two different sisters. 

Yes, definitely. And I have a thought on what that might be telling us. The statue of the weeping woman at the Eyrie stands in the garden at a spot intended for a weirwood that could not thrive there. So the statue replaces the weirwood and essentially the weeping woman with her “poisonous” tears replace the weirwood. Lady Stoneheart, the non-weeping woman now hangs (strangles) people, specifically from trees and the rope connects the dead to the tree. Perhaps this is showing us another method of raising the dead, through the trees, through the power of the weirwoods. Actually, I’ve suspected this for a long time with no concrete evidence.

 

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A few pines along the edge of the wood had been scorched, but deeper in the damp soil and green wood had defeated the flames. “There is a power in living wood,” said Jojen Reed, almost as if he knew what Bran was thinking, “a power strong as fire.”

 

This actually works if we take Daenerys’ experience in tHotU as an example. The Undying were after her life fires. In this example, the wood defeats the flames, the trees are even stronger than the fire. As to the function of the poison –  could it be the associated poison in both the tears and the strangler (and maybe the manticore poison) is a requirement for opening the third eye through which the magic can flow? As @LynnS pointed out:

On 5/10/2022 at 5:42 PM, LynnS said:

Mushrooms grow out of Bloodraven's brow and cheeks:

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A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

A spray of dark red leaves sprouted from his skull, and grey mushrooms spotted his brow. A little skin remained, stretched across his face, tight and hard as white leather, but even that was fraying, and here and there the brown and yellow bone beneath was poking through.

Some mushrooms are noted for their hallucinogenic properties, we know, their psychoactive compounds causing mind-altering states like what Bran experiences with weirwood paste and Dany with Shade of the Evening as well as for being poisonous. Either the weirwoods can be likened to such a mushroom or perhaps a poisoned weirwood is required, like the Raventree weirwood. The Strangler is made by Lysene poisoners from the leaves of a plant that grows only on the islands of the Jade Sea. And in Dany's case, the Undying were also sucking on one of her eyes. 

It would have to be a slow-acting poison, like the thickened manticore poison Clegane was subjected to, something long-term that keeps the third eye open without killing off the victim at once as in Joff’s case.

Another thing that may be significant to this thought is Beric recalling all the ways in which he died prior to being raised again. One death was by hanging, by Armory Lorch of the manticore sigil. So, similar to the ruby/bury discussion, hanging  might not put the dead to rest. Coming to think of it, we also suspect that being kissed by fire or being branded or having a body part burned could ensure a raising. Merrett Frey was branded by the White Fawn and was hanged.

 

23 hours ago, Seams said:

Maybe this Lys discussion is a good place to start talking about Good Queen Alysanne. Her name is part of the Alys / Alyssa / Alayne / Sansa group that seems to be connected on a symbolic level. I think Alysanne is a key figure in sorting out poisons and also connected to your "raising the dead" theory because:

I love all your observations on Queen Alysanne! I need to refresh my memory on her. I agree that each child’s death carries symbolism but with the exception of Daenerys’ death by the “Shivers plague,” haven’t been able to come up with a decent explanation. Got to examine all that.

 

23 hours ago, Seams said:

Instead of Alysanne being poisoned by her mother, I think she might be the poisoner - only death can pay for life, and she is trying to promote a new generation of life.

This idea of Alysanne trying to promote a new generation of life really appeals to me and has given me an idea regarding “the Gift.” The Gift was supposed to provide sustenance for the NW. “Gift” or poison can be seen as the opposite to sustenance. Since the NW is supposed to defend the realm against the Others, the Gift is possibly an area south of the Wall that cannot be crossed by the Others or is poisonous or anathema to them. By extending the “Gift,” Alysanne may have extended the no-go area, which may be vital in terms of humanity's survival. Similarly, Snow Gate turned Queen’s Gate could prove to be a fortified barrier, enemies would have to get past the Queen’s Gate as well as Queen’s Crown. Or these places could be areas of refuge. Something along these lines.

 

23 hours ago, Seams said:

8. Her personal body guard was named Jonquil Darke, probably an allusion to "Jon" characters as well as "Dunk" (the German word for "dark" is "dunkel") but also the Darklyn family associated with the kings guard. (The "-quil" suffix could be an allusion to a "quill" used for writing or for a porcupine. House Penrose has quills in their sigil.)

Indeed. Or Jonquil, the flower and -quill – as a pricking instrument. A variation on the flower / sword, flower / needle pairs as in Rhaegar (the flower/rose) and Lyanna (the sword) and Jon (the rose), Arya (the needle). Penrose also has the “flower” aspect.

 

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As others and myself have previously mentioned there is a strong connection between the colour purple and poison.

I have been looking for other instances of purple in the series aside from the more obvious ones (purple hairnet/crystals, purple wedding and so on). Some of the Targaryens have purple eyes, which I believe is a hint to the potentially poisoned nature of their prophetic gift, or a link being a ruler in general - it is a burden and makes you a likelier target for assassination. As others have said we have the Purple Harbour/Braavos/Faceless men connection.

I was looking for houses with purple in their sigil to find other possible connections.

House Brax from the Westerlands has a purple unicorn on a silver field as their sigil. There is also a needle connection with the unicorn horn. Some readers have speculated that the Lannister vassal houses will turn on them in the coming books as Tywin is no longer there to keep them in line through fear. The purple, poisoned unicorn could foreshadow House Brax's involvement in this event. At the same time, the unicorn is on a field of silver. Silver has antimicrobial properties and is often associated with fighting the supernatural. I wonder if silver could have an affect on Others or Wights? So this could suggest that House Brax is linked to some sort of cure, or that they are containing a poison, as the purple unicorn is enclosed in a sliver field. Flement Brax, who is married to a Frey (a poisoned gift?) also testifies at Tyrion's trial.

House Plumm probably has purple in their sigil as well. We have suspected Plumm Relative Brown Ben Plumm betraying Daenerys and some dubious parentage issues involving Targaryen marriage.

House Mallister from the Riverlands has a silver eagle on a purple field as their sigil. The Mallisters often have the role of defending against the Ironborn. If we take the antimicrobial silver connection, it is as though the Ironborn are a 'disease' that the Mallisters are fighting against. Could the worship of the Drowned God be spreading some sort of plague? There is almost definitely a connection between Patchface and the Drowned God, and Melisandre sees some foreboding imagery surrounding him. We also have Denys Mallister at the wall, to fight against the disease of the Others. People in other threads have also said that the drowning process in the Drowned God religion most likely causes brain damage. The purple surrounding the eagle could also symbolise the dangerous position the Mallisters are in - due to their location and proximity to the sea, they will constantly be fighting the Ironborn.

House Bellmore from the vale (one of the Lords Declarant) has six silver bells on a purple field. The bells could be associated with Alyssa's tears as they are linked to sadness. When telling of her prophetic dream about the Red Wedding, the Ghost of High Heart says that, "I dreamt such a clangor I thought my head might burst, drums and horns and pipes and screams, but the saddest sound was the little bells." There is a connection between music and grief. As said by others, the Quartheen consider tears to be cultured and polite. The Sorrowful Men from Quarth apologise to their victims before they kill them, we see this when one tries to kill Daenerys using a manticore, another symbol of poison. The silver bells on the purple field could also connect music with poison. The singer Alaric of Eysen was going to perform at Joffrey's wedding, but Joffrey died before he could come on. We don't know where Eysen is, but I feel like it could be in the vale. I believe the songs that are played and the order of songs is also important. We also have Symon Silver Tongue being killed on Tyrion's orders before the wedding. This could possibly suggest a 'cure' being lost.

House Royce of the Gates of the Moon may also have purple in their sigil (not sure if this is fully cannon as wiki said it was from 'semi-cannon sources'). This is probably a hint to the poisoned nature of Littlefinger's gift. He gives the castle to them as a hereditary position, so they will hold it forever, but this sets them against their own kin.

There are other houses with purple in their sigils, but I thought these were the most important ones. There are also many houses with silver in their sigils, I believe at least a few of these could suggest a possible 'cure' connection.

 

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On 5/24/2022 at 12:59 AM, Seams said:

P.S. "Tansy" is the poison used to induce abortion in ASOIAF. Another link to that fertility theme. 

But it is also one of the last words of Lysa and Catelyn's father, Hoster Tully. There is a "Three Sisters" symbol associated with Queen Alysanne that leads me to wonder whether there is a secret, third sister of Lysa and Catelyn, and her name is Tansy. This would give us a third poison associated with these sisters - Tears of Lys, the Strangler and Tansy.

I think the name Tansy is part of the group of names that includes Tanselle (the puppet girl in The Sworn Sword) and Nettles, the dragonseed who rides the dragon Sheep Stealer in the Dance of the Dragons. Nettles seems to escape to the Vale and we never hear if or when she dies. 

It just occured to me that "Tansy" could be a reference to "Dancy" or to "dance." "Tanz, tanzen" means dance, dancing in German. After reading that section on Hoster Tully's agony over "Tansy," it seems likely  Catelyn figured it out correctly - he meant Lysa and the tansy tea he gave her to drink, inducing the abortion. As a poison, tansy or dancing is a metaphor for the "dancing dead" in relation to the spasms and seizures caused by some poisons (and my take on the "butterfly fever"). Lady Stoneheart's hanging causes the dead to "dance." This quote refers to Brienne, about to be hanged by the BWB:

Quote

"Do you mean to hang her, Lem?" asked the one-eyed man. "Or do you figure to talk the bitch to death?" The Hound snatched the end of the rope from the man holding it. "Let's see if she can dance," he said, and gave a yank.

Hanged victims "dance" during their death throes. Since they hang from a rope, Lem, Stoneheart and the tree become the "the "Tanselles," the "puppeteers" orchestrating the "dance." But perhaps "Tans-elle" is a reference to women or perhaps we need to include "trans" as in the transgender sense or in terms of crossing, going beyond. And we have a one-eyed man in the mix, a possible Bloodraven reference. 

Tanselle the puppeteer is also interesting because her puppet show ends in the death of a dragon, its red saw dust "blood" spilling on the floor. And indeed, Tanselle causes a mini "Dance of the Dragons"  with this show when Dunk rushes to resuce the "damsel in distress"  from Aerion Brightflame, ultimately pitting the Targs against each other in the Trial of the Seven which leads to Aerion killing Baelor. Tanselle pulls the strings that ultimately causes the "dance." She then goes on to Dorne with her show. I suspect the red sawdust blood represents the red sands of Dorne. All these clues point to Tanselle as a symbolic orchestrator or bringer of the death of dragons.

Dance = death in both Tansy variants. 

And of course we have Patchface and his:

“The shadows come to dance, my lord, dance my lord, dance my lord,” and 

“In the dark the dead are dancing.”

 

Edit - addition of one-eyed man.

"

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15 hours ago, Evolett said:

It just occured to me that "Tansy" could be a reference to "Dancy" or to "dance." "Tanz, tanzen" means dance, dancing in German.

Nice catch! I can't believe this hasn't been discussed here before.

In addition to the "dancing" that might occur from a person being poisoned, we also have the Dance of the Dragons and Sansa's love of dancing - she dances with Ser Garlan Tyrell at her wedding - and Arya as a Waterdancer. Then, of course, there's also this: 

Quote

There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

Ser Waymar met him bravely. "Dance with me then." He lifted his sword high over his head, defiant. His hands trembled from the weight of it, or perhaps from the cold. Yet in that moment, Will thought, he was a boy no longer, but a man of the Night's Watch.

(AGoT, prologue)

One of the interesting things about dancing is the changing of partners. If Tansy, Tanselle and Nettles are part of a group because of their similar-sounding names, I wonder whether they are dance "instructors" or just dancers. I agree with your point that Tanselle is a puppetmaster, which is an important symbol. I saw her as a parallel for Bloodraven's mother, Missy Blackwood, or for Bloodraven himself. But what qualities does she share with the mysterious Tansy or with Nettles that would put them into this "dance" category?

At one point, I thought names ending with "-ella" were often associated with crone characters. But there are some clear crones who don't have "-ella" names, so that theory may not be borne out. 

15 hours ago, Evolett said:

. . . .which leads to Aerion killing Baelor.

Maekar kills Baelor. (Although you could make a case that Baelor was fine until he removed his helmet.) But Aerion is responsible for provoking the need for the Trial of Seven.

15 hours ago, Evolett said:

I suspect the red sawdust blood represents the red sands of Dorne.

I think the saw dust is a tree reference, and that is significant. Although the reader is led to assume that Aerion is mad that the dragon dies, I think the deeper symbolism is that Aerion is mad that the puppet show exposes the fact that a dragon is full of wood. Perhaps more significantly red wood, symbolizing a red tree? The symbolism could be that dragons have "tree blood" running through their veins. The central mystery of the relationship of the Targaryens to the tree-worshiping First Men could be represented in the beheading of the dragon puppet. 

To me, the symbolism is not that Tanselle brings death. She is a puppetmaster and brings the dragon to life (albeit under her control). Egg says he likes the smooth way she manipulates the puppet. It is the knight/fool puppet, Florian, that beheads the dragon. We don't know the full story of Florian and Jonquil, but it seems to be related to the Maidenpool story and Ser Galladon of Morne. And we know it ends sadly.  I believe the large Dornish woman operates the Florian puppet. She may be a Meria Martell figure, the mysterious player in the disappearance of Queen Rhaenys. 

A very complex metaphor, hidden in the dancing references. Maybe the potion known as Tansy will lead us to an answer. 

 

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8 hours ago, Seams said:

Maekar kills Baelor. (Although you could make a case that Baelor was fine until he removed his helmet.) But Aerion is responsible for provoking the need for the Trial of Seven.

Yes. I need a re-read of the Dunk and Egg tales :D.

8 hours ago, Seams said:

To me, the symbolism is not that Tanselle brings death. She is a puppetmaster and brings the dragon to life (albeit under her control). Egg says he likes the smooth way she manipulates the puppet. It is the knight/fool puppet, Florian, that beheads the dragon.

Okay, I'll go with this. It makes more sense with my further thoughts on Tansy, Moon tea if Tanselle is a life giver (though she also makes the puppets dance). Tansy tea or moon tea as an abortive agent kills children in the womb and I'm thinking this "poison" refers to babies or unborn babies as sacrifices. Lysa / Tansy was made to sacrifice her unborn child by her father so that she would be available as a wife for Jon Arryn in exchange for the Tully swords for Robert's Rebellion. Lysa becomes the lady of a house with a close association to the moon - Gates of the Moon, Moon Door, moon in House Arryn's sigil etc. 

Daenerys, Moon of Drogo's life and in relation to Tanselle also a "puppeteer" who handles her dragons "smoothly" also sacrifices her unborn child; for Drogo's life, Mirri tells her. Readers believe Rhaego was sacrificed for Rhaegal, the dragons are Dany's "swords." In both cases, the mothers are not in the know, the unborn child is killed through the intervention of a third party, making the mothers non-consenting participants (akin to Tanselle the life-giver also involved in the "death dance"). 

The word "puppet" comes from the French "popette" meaning doll and is also related to "puppy."

Quote

puppy (n.)

late 15c., "woman's small pet dog," a word of uncertain origin but likely to be from French poupée "doll, toy" (see puppet). "A little dog appears to have been called puppy because petted as a doll or puppet" [Century Dictionary].

The meaning shifted from "toy dog" to "young dog" (1590s), replacing native whelp. In early use in English the words puppet and puppy were not always distinguished. 

We've been thinking of the men of the NW as sacrifices akin to Craster's baby sacrifices. Benjen Stark is the "pup" in Meera's Knight of the Laughing tree story. I haven't looked further into this but I recall Balon Greyjoy refering to Robb, the Young Wolf as a pup. 

Dishes made from unborn puppies are a delicacy in Slaver's Bay and the connection from the puppies to the babies is illustrated by the Unsullied slave soldiers who are required to kill both a baby and the dogs they raised from puppyhood to complete their training. So here too, non-consenting mothers are made to sacrifice their babies for an army. I would say  this part leads up to Craster sacrificing his baby boys to the Others.

 

On 5/25/2022 at 1:23 PM, Braavosi Citizen said:

House Bellmore from the vale (one of the Lords Declarant) has six silver bells on a purple field. The bells could be associated with Alyssa's tears as they are linked to sadness. When telling of her prophetic dream about the Red Wedding, the Ghost of High Heart says that, "I dreamt such a clangor I thought my head might burst, drums and horns and pipes and screams, but the saddest sound was the little bells." There is a connection between music and grief.

Some observations on the little bells. There seems to be a connection between little bells that tinkle or jingle and leaders who have never lost a battle. Khal Drogo wears little silver bells in his hair, each repesenting a victory in battle, and he never lost a battle. Viserys also compares him to Aegon the Dragonlord come again. Robb never lost a battle and Jinglebell, otherwise named Aegon wears those bells at the Red Wedding. Perhaps there's a connection to swords or knives. "Klingeln" means "jingle" in German and "Klinge" means blade. 

In the Free City of Norvos, the lives of the people are entirely controlled by the Three Bells of Norvos, one of the nine wonders made by man. I've been thinking about the bells in terms of sending messages or of being a controlling force but haven't really come up with a convincing explanation that ties the two observations together.  

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  • 2 weeks later...

Another discovery on Tansy / Tanz / Dancy.  This is the maester's answer to Catelyn who's been trying to figure out who Tansy could have been. 

Quote

The maester looked thoughtful. “There was a widow, I recall, she used to come to the castle looking for old shoes in need of new soles. Her name was Tansy, now that I think on it. Or was it Pansy? Some such. But she has not come for many years …” “Her name was Violet,” said Catelyn, who remembered the old woman very well.

Soles / souls and shoes / hoes but I think hoes could also be a reference to the slang for "whores." Dancy is a sex-worker at Chataya's establishment while the red-haired Tansy is in charge of the Peach brothel at Stoney Sept. "Hoes" would link also to the fertility theme. 

So the widow is looking for old whores in need of new souls. 

Also interesting is Pansy - in slang again, an effeminate or gay boy or man. Which puts us in mind of the "perfumed boys." The pansy flower is also known interchangeably as "viola" or "violet." Other names include "Jonny Jump Up," lol, I'm having a good laugh over all this. 

Anyway, Pansy, or "perfumed boy" recalls Satin, Jon's squire and of course Jon himself through his association with blue winter roses, the scent of which Lyanna loved. I mentioned flower/flour as representing reincarnated souls in the other thread so Tansy looking for old whores in need of new souls doesn't seem so far fetched. Then I had another look at the old song "Roses are red, violets are blue, honey is sweet and so are you." Apparently it was composed in 1590 by Sir Edmund Spense and later in 1784 made famous by Gammer Gurton's Garland. Edmure and Garlan? Renly can be thought of as a "pansy" and Garlan came back as Renly's ghost, and my personal theory is that Hoster Tully passed down his soul to his children, including Edmure. And to lay it on really thick, "Spense" just might be linked to "Gespenst," German word for "ghost." 

Would this connect to the widow of the waterfront? The widow looking for old shoes comes to Riverrun which can be considered a waterfront. The Volantis widow is an old whore (old shoes) who receives gifts - a silver goblet, a fan carved of transluscent jade leaves, the bronze knife with runes and gloves from Jorah which she does not touch. I still think the first three gifts point to the Great Rite in Wicca, the jade leaves being the result of the fertility ritual involving the goblet and the knife. Could it be she symbolically wanted "new soles" - new souls - instead of gloves?  I'm still puzzling over the gloves. She sent Jorah and Tyrion aboard the Selaesori Qhoran, meaning "Fragrant Steward" or "Stinky Steward" (also part of the perfume theme) as Tyrion names the ship, which sunk. People drowned but not Jorah and Tyrion. Did the "gloves" prevent them from becoming "new souls" for the widow? 

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Very nice catch and good analysis. 

The old shoes I can remember in ASOIAF are Bran skin-changing into Hodor and Arya taking the boots of Dareon, the Night's Watch deserter who was traveling with Samwell.

Quote

. . . he slipped his skin, and reached for Hodor.

It was not like sliding into Summer. That was so easy now that Bran hardly thought about it. This was harder, like trying to pull a left boot on your right foot. It fit all wrong, and the boot was scared too, the boot didn't know what was happening, the boot was pushing the foot away.

ASoS, Bran IV

The only black about him was his boots. Cat had heard him tell Lanna that he'd thrown all the rest in a canal. "I am done with darkness," he had announced.

He is a man of the Night's Watch, she thought, as he sang about some stupid lady throwing herself off some stupid tower because her stupid prince was dead.

AFfC, Cat of the Canals

By the time Cat returned to Brusco's house, an evening fog was gathering above the small canal. She put away her barrow, found Brusco in his counting room, and thumped her purse down on the table in front of him. She thumped the boots down too.

Brusco gave the purse a pat. "Good. But what's this?"

"Boots."

"Good boots are hard to find," said Brusco, "but these are too small for my feet." He picked one up to squint at it.

"The moon will be black tonight," she reminded him.

"Best you pray, then." Brusco shoved the boots aside and poured out the coins to count them. "Valar dohaeris."

Valar morghulis, she thought.

AFfC, Cat of the Canals

When I searched on boots in Arya's POVs, there were many references. Lots of situations where people were taking boots off of dead men, along with money and weapons. The boots associated with her trip on the Titan's Daughter are thrown in a canal along with her other personal items. 

The notable barefoot people are Septon Meribald and Baelor the Blessed, though, who seem like the people living the most truly devout and holy lives. I wonder what that means if a soul is represented by a shoe? I also wonder how this fits with the "oranges = feet" motif that is part of GRRM's personal system of linking body parts and fruit. 

I suspect the sole / soul wordplay is correct in some way. After Arya hands the boots to Brusco, he tells her to pray but we know that Arya's prayer is about people she wants to kill. 

I also like your link between the flower names and dancing through pansy / tansy / dancy. I think there is something very significant in Ser Garlan dancing with Sansa at her wedding. 

Quote

She looked away, to where Moon Boy danced with Dontos.

"Lady Sansa." Ser Garlan Tyrell stood beside the dais. "Would you honor me? If your lord consents?"

The Imp's mismatched eyes narrowed. "My lady can dance with whomever she pleases."

Perhaps she ought to have remained beside her husband, but she wanted to dance so badly . . . and Ser Garlan was brother to Margaery, to Willas, to her Knight of Flowers. "I see why they name you Garlan the Gallant, ser," she said, as she took his hand.

ASoS, Sansa III

We definitely see flowers and dancing combined here. As the dance continues, Sansa changes partners and I think we are seeing her being transformed. She says that her "legs had turned to wood" by the time the dance is over. Like Bran, is Sansa becoming a tree? Or a puppet? One of her dancing partners is Lord Rowan. Whenever there is a Rowan in the story, I think it represents a personified weirwood.

The fertility connection is here, too, albeit indirect: Ser Garlan's wife is pregnant at the time of Joffrey's wedding, iirc. She is a Fossoway, but GRRM does not tell us whether she is a green apple Fossoway or red apple. i think that is deliberate. But apples are connected to the "seed is strong" motif, which means they are connected to the flour / flower motif (thanks to your earlier discovery). I suspect it will be a very interesting moment in the symbolism if we get to see the Tyrell / Fossoway baby. Maybe this will occur at the end of the winter.

I'm not sure how the gloves or the whore symbolism connects with all of this, although you have laid out some good ideas. I am thinking again about Theon emerging from his Reek identity at Winterfell and rescuing Jeyne / fArya, who is probably pregnant. Of course, Jeyne was forced into prostitution before being chosen to impersonate Arya. Washerwomen were often "camp followers" (prostitutes) so that might explain why GRRM chose them as the secret agents to help Theon and Jeyne.

But I think the washerwomen function for Theon in the same way Sansa's dance partners played a role in transforming her in the dance sequence: the leader of Theon's washer women is named Rowan. Squirrel, Willow, Myrtle, Frenya and Holly seem to be the names of the others. There is a reference to the "stumps" of Theon's fingers as he takes Jeyne's hand, so that might be similar to Sansa's wooden legs.

Both Rowan and Theon wear gloves while interacting with each other in ADwD.

Hmm. I just did a search on "flower" in Theon's ADwD POVs, and find some significant possibilities:

Roose Bolton says that the original Reek wore flowers in an attempt to hide his body odor, but it did not help: "The smell was something he was born with. A curse, the smallfolk said. The gods had made him stink so that men would know his soul was rotting" (ADwD, Reek III). 

When Theon gives away the bride at the wedding of Ramsay and fArya / Jeyne, he says that she is "a woman grown and flowered" (ADwD, The Prince of Winterfell). This seems to imply that a grown flower is being given, reinforcing that fertility connection and the seed motif.

The third is in Theon's scene with Lady Barbry in the crypt. She refers to Maester Walys and tells us his surname was Flowers. She says the name three times, however, and we know that GRRM wants us to pay attention when someone says something three time, like Mormont's raven. She says the Tully marriage was his idea and that makes a neat circle back to your analysis of Lord Hoster, Tansy and the other symbols. I think this is the scene were Lady Barbry removes her glove to touch the stone image of Brandon Stark, too. 

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On 6/16/2022 at 12:46 AM, Seams said:

Very nice catch and good analysis. 

Merci :)

On 6/16/2022 at 12:46 AM, Seams said:

The old shoes I can remember in ASOIAF are these Bran skin-changing into Hodor and Arya taking the boots of Dareon, the Night's Watch deserter who was traveling with Samwell.

Quote

. . . he slipped his skin, and reached for Hodor.

It was not like sliding into Summer. That was so easy now that Bran hardly thought about it. This was harder, like trying to pull a left boot on your right foot. It fit all wrong, and the boot was scared too, the boot didn't know what was happening, the boot was pushing the foot away.

ASoS, Bran IV

The only black about him was his boots. Cat had heard him tell Lanna that he'd thrown all the rest in a canal. "I am done with darkness," he had announced.

He is a man of the Night's Watch, she thought, as he sang about some stupid lady throwing herself off some stupid tower because her stupid prince was dead.

AFfC, Cat of the Canals

By the time Cat returned to Brusco's house, an evening fog was gathering above the small canal. She put away her barrow, found Brusco in his counting room, and thumped her purse down on the table in front of him. She thumped the boots down too.

Brusco gave the purse a pat. "Good. But what's this?"

"Boots."

"Good boots are hard to find," said Brusco, "but these are too small for my feet." He picked one up to squint at it.

"The moon will be black tonight," she reminded him.

"Best you pray, then." Brusco shoved the boots aside and poured out the coins to count them. "Valar dohaeris."

Valar morghulis, she thought.

AFfC, Cat of the Canals

Expand  

When I searched on boots in Arya's POVs, there were many references. Lots of situations where people were taking boots off of dead men, along with money and weapons. The boots associated with her trip on the Titan's Daughter are thrown in a canal along with her other personal items. 

The boots, hmm. For what its worth, I've always thought of the boots as a vessel for a skinchanger. The boot in the quote above personifies Hodor and his reaction to what is happening. Perhaps they refer to humans in particular rather than animals. In comparison to skinchanging an animal, skinchanging humans is a difficult task so when boots taken off dead men don't fit it may indicate the new owner is not capable of skinchanging. Arya disposing of her boots may indicate that skinchaning is no longer important to her development - and indeed she learns completely new techniques such as donning a true skin to change her appearance. Actually this relates to something I just posted in another thread so I'll quote that here:

Quote

Most fans think of the Boltons wearing the skin of Starks in terms of their desiring to attain the magical inheritance of the Starks - skinchanging and greenseeing. I wonder if this is what the Boltons seek or if the wearing of Stark skins represents something else entirely, like shape-shifting. When Arya wears the face of the girl  who sought death to escape the brutality of her father, the face changes her appearance. It appears like a true face to everyone else but it's Arya inside. Wearing the face of someone who has died relates to the Bolton's who wear the skins of dead Starks. It's different from skinchanging where the soul of the skinchanger leaves his body to enter the body of another like we see Bran doing. The skinchanger himself is virtually helpless while his soul resides in another body. He needs to be fed and looked after while "away from his body," - we see this with Bran in the crypts when he spends a lot of time inside Summer. Eating as a boy in wolf does not fill Bran's own stomach. 
Not so with Jaqen or with Arya when she dons a face as a "faceless man/woman." I would say Arya shape-shifts and even though the author does not use the term, there are references to this type of magic, such as Tormund's "Husband to Bears" story. 

 

On 6/16/2022 at 12:46 AM, Seams said:

The notable barefoot people are Septon Meribald and Baelor the Blessed, though, who seem like the people living the most truly devout and holy lives. I wonder what that means if a soul is represented by a shoe?

I hadn't even considered this but now you mention it, I see a tie to the flower theme with Baelor the Blessed - he was the only Targaryen king who wore a crown of flowers. Since they live devout and holy lives, perhaps they are pure souls. Or carriers of the original souls of a particular important ancestor, undivided. Guess what? "Balmier" and "lambier" are anagrams of Meribald, bringing us round to the sacrificial theme. Both sacrifice themselves in their own way, both undertake long journeys on foot. There is this "lamb of God who takes the sins of the world upon himself" feel to this "barefoot sole." How would Cersei's barefoot walk of shame relate to this - the one difference in her case being it was something imposed on her, not done of her own free will. There are also the Hornfoot men beyond the Wall.

On 6/16/2022 at 12:46 AM, Seams said:

We definitely see flowers and dancing combined here. As the dance continues, Sansa changes partners and I think we are seeing her being transformed. She says that her "legs had turned to wood" by the time the dance is over. Like Bran, is Sansa becoming a tree? Or a puppet? One of her dancing partners is Lord Rowan. Whenever there is a Rowan in the story, I think it represents a personified weirwood.

Sansa's legs turning to wood might represent a historical switch from women as Earth goddesses / clairvoyants to the trees as goddesses of the earth (are weirwoods female? I've always wondered - greenseers "wed" the trees.) The narrative presents several women as seers or clairvoyants such as Daenys the Dreamer, tGoHH, One-Eyed Yna, Melisandre, Maggie the Frog. We don't see too many men in comparison, Moqorro being one and of course the greenseers who use the trees. What's also missing for the most part are concrete mentions of Earth goddesses connected to the fertility of the land (with the exception of the Prince of Pentos and maids of sea and fields he has to deflower to promote the bounty of sea and land).  I think this is deliberate on the authors part and part of the mystery of the asynchronous seasons. There appears to have been a shift away from women to horned-lords acting without any specific mention of their consorts (like Garth), generally to a male dominated version of fertility and clairvoyance. We haven't seen a female greenseer yet. So perhaps Sansa dancing with different partners including Garlan of the flowers (perhaps normal state of affairs) and ending up with Rowan personifying a weirwood and her legs turning to wood is a reflection of this shift (due to a patriarchal society). 

 

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On 6/16/2022 at 12:46 AM, Seams said:

Roose Bolton says that the original Reek wore flowers in an attempt to hide his body odor, but it did not help: "The smell was something he was born with. A curse, the smallfolk said. The gods had made him stink so that men would know his soul was rotting" (ADwD, Reek III). 

This relates to the "Fragrant Steward, Stinky Steward" nameplay by Tyrion. As to Theon (fragrant - flour/flower Miller's sons wordplay) becoming Stinky Reek. In terms of fertility, Ramsay tries to turn Theon from a flower into perhaps dung. The smallfolk relate the smell to the first Reek's soul and considering the flower/flower wordplay, they are probably right. But I'm getting away from what I wanted to write about.

It appears gloves are related to the poisonous flowers we've been seeing. But first a few observations which I haven't figured out but seem relevant.

The biography of the widow of the waterfront is similar to that of Serra, second and beloved wife of Illyrio. Both women were sex workers and slaves who married rich and powerful men. Serra died of the grey plague and Illyrio keeps her hands (soft hands) in his bedroom in memory of her. The widow outlives her husband and maintains her wealthy status after his death. Our attention is also drawn to the marks under her eye where the branded tear marking her as a sex-worker has been cut away. And she receives gloves from Jorah. What is the connection between Serra's soft but ungloved hands and the gloves the widow receives? 

The other thing I noticed is Jorah's inner debate over what to give the widow:

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Farther on, the knight paused briefly to consider a jeweled tiara displayed upon a bed of purple velvet. He passed that by, but a few steps on he stopped again to haggle over a pair of gloves at a leather-worker’s stall.

The tiara is something his beloved Lynesse might have been happy with. We don't know much about Jorah's first wife, but she was a Glover. Maybe these two women subconsciously influenced his decision and we are supposed to see the gloves in terms of "loves." The similar biographies of the widow and Serra are also based on love. Lynesse's biography also shares elements with Serra and the widow, only that Lynesse is highborn, free and now a concubine to a wealthy man. And like Serra, she also had soft hands.

 Now to the glove flowers:
The widow of  the waterfront is described as vulpine, foxlike (she also has reptilian eyes and a feral smile). The fox association made me think of foxglove flowers so named because the flowers are glove or bell-shaped. They come in purple and variations thereof, pink, violet, and also in white. Their scientific name, Digitalis, means "fingers." And they are poisonous, depending on the dosage. Cardiac conditions are treated with extracted digitalins, better known as Digitalis. Foxglove flowers are not mentioned in the story but there is a Willam Foxglove of House Foxglove sworn to Stannis. According to the Wiki:

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House Foxglove may be from the Reach as their name and the fact that Willam is a supporter of Stannis may indicate some relation to the Florents of Brightwater Keep whose sigil is a fox.

There is no mention of Willam Foxglove being a follower of the Lord of Light but he could be. The Widow seems to support a slave revolt in Volantis and may be a follower of Rhllor herself, linking her and perhaps the gloves to the Fiery Fingers. 

Looks like the Florents might shed some light on this. 

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On 6/16/2022 at 12:46 AM, Seams said:

The notable barefoot people are Septon Meribald and Baelor the Blessed, though, who seem like the people living the most truly devout and holy lives. I wonder what that means if a soul is represented by a shoe? I also wonder how this fits with the "oranges = feet" motif that is part of GRRM's personal system of linking body parts and fruit. 

In relation to this and my response:

On 6/17/2022 at 10:20 PM, Evolett said:

I hadn't even considered this but now you mention it, I see a tie to the flower theme with Baelor the Blessed - he was the only Targaryen king who wore a crown of flowers. Since they live devout and holy lives, perhaps they are pure souls. Or carriers of the original souls of a particular important ancestor, undivided. Guess what? "Balmier" and "lambier" are anagrams of Meribald, bringing us round to the sacrificial theme. Both sacrifice themselves in their own way, both undertake long journeys on foot. There is this "lamb of God who takes the sins of the world upon himself" feel to this "barefoot sole." How would Cersei's barefoot walk of shame relate to this - the one difference in her case being it was something imposed on her, not done of her own free will. There are also the Hornfoot men beyond the Wall.

The ancient Gardner Kings of Highgarden also wore a crown of flowers:

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The Gardener kings wore crowns of vines and flowers when at peace, and crowns of bronze thorns (later iron) when they rode to war.[3] Their blazon was a green hand over a white field,[5][6] which inspired the chivalric Order of the Green Hand.[7]

Flowers and Thorns associated with the green hand. If this is an early association of flowers with the hand, perhaps the barefoot sole /soul is associated with the thorns - or Dorne /thorn/Dorne. Baelor the Blessed travels barefoot to Dorne and back. And its a peace-walk, a walk of attonement. On the way he almost sacrifices himself to rescue Aemon the Dragonknight from the cage hanging above a viper pit. 

Septon Meribald with his "lamb" association travels barefoot with his dog, just named Dog. Or with his god (dog/god) fitting the barefoot sole being a "pure" or "godly" soul. Brienne apparently kills the dog, hmm. 

The dog/god wordplay also extends to Theon. Theon meaning "godly" being turned into a "dog" or one of Ramsay's dogs. Ramsay flays Theon's fingers and cuts them off, presumably his manhood too, also some of his toes if I remember correctly. Maybe this is part of the explanation why the Greyjoys words are "we do sow." Theon could symbolize a Garth Greenhand figure/god whose fertility was compromised until it yielded nothing but dust (Dorne) - the Grey King. And he found a workaround by teaching his people to fish and use the sea instead. I think Theon wears a lot of grey and green, have to check that.  

In her "wake the dragon" dream, Daenerys runs barefoot from the icy cold behind her, seeking the safety of the red door. I wonder how that fits in with this. 

 

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