US Politics: A Post-Roe Country

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

3 hours ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

It won't be a surprise?

I mean people who believe that most us police forces are anything else than the legal gang of an area have been watching too many crime shows. Risking their lives for people that are not in their circles is not something they tend to do.

Not sure I agree with that, but it's worth noting that if a cop was afraid to engage the shooter, imagine how teachers would feel if they're also asked to play the role of John McClane. It's not like they're already massively overworked after all.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

8 hours ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Dear gods...the word coming out that the shooter had upwards of 40 minutes with the cops staying outside...? If that's true...

 

The video linked below is how law enforcement was equipped while doing crowd control and “waiting for the tactical team”: for 40 minutes to an hour.  I’m particularly incensed by the officer with his tazer out while pushing back parents desperately trying to save their kids.

 

[ljkeane]

It does look terrible, and clearly they were wrong to wait given how it's turned out, but if he wasn't actively shooting people at that point I could see why they might be reluctant just to charge into a classroom full of kids he'd barricaded himself into. It's hard to see how that wouldn't result in a lot of kids getting shot. Obviously with hindsight that happened anyway but I could see why they might want to try and convince him to surrender or at least use the best trained people they have to go in.

Once it gets to that stage I don't think there are any easy answers. The solution is far, far stricter gun control to prevent it happening in the first place but that isn't going to happen unfortunately.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

Doesn't really matter. What it shows is the notion that a good guy with a gun is the solution is utter and complete horse shit. 

Also, per the NYT, seems like Trump was on team Hang Mike Pence too. Shocker...

[Jaxom 1974]

4 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

Doesn't really matter. What it shows is the notion that a good guy with a gun is the solution is utter and complete horse shit. 

 

Ah...but power Ted Cruz, those his guys are at a disadvantage because those sorts have multiple access points to the schools.  The good guys just need the one access choke point to defend and they'll be fine...

[Week]

12 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Ah...but power Ted Cruz, those his guys are at a disadvantage because those sorts have multiple access points to the schools.  The good guys just need the one access choke point to defend and they'll be fine...

One door for all ingress. Duh. That should solve the problem without any unforeseen issues. Or maybe just one door for ingress and egress. We'll call them Cruz's Cloacas.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

24 minutes ago, Week said:

One door for all ingress. Duh. That should solve the problem without any unforeseen issues. Or maybe just one door for ingress and egress. We'll call them Cruz's Cloacas.

Hey, what could go wrong with herding everyone to one location? Also, way to make burning down the school way more problematic.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

42 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Ah...but power Ted Cruz, those his guys are at a disadvantage because those sorts have multiple access points to the schools.  The good guys just need the one access choke point to defend and they'll be fine...

Here is the coward Ted Cruz running from hard questions:

 

[Luzifer's right hand]

2 hours ago, Tywin et al. said:

Not sure I agree with that, but it's worth noting that if a cop was afraid to engage the shooter, imagine how teachers would feel if they're also asked to play the role of John McClane. It's not like they're already massively overworked after all.

Honestly it boggles the mind that people still give police the benefit of doubt in the US.

There might be a tiny fraction of decent police but that's it.

The rest is just in for power abuse and discrimination and no help to anyone that they don't consider on their side of the thin blue line.

[Morpheus]

25 minutes ago, Luzifer's right hand said:

Honestly it boggles the mind that people still give police the benefit of doubt in the US.

There might be a tiny fraction of decent police but that's it.

The rest is just in for power abuse and discrimination and no help to anyone that they don't consider on their side of the thin blue line.

The system is fundamentally broken, even hypothetically “good” cops refuse to acknowlege that fact. ACAB is a reality because there is no call for change from the inside.

[karaddin]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

Doesn't really matter. What it shows is the notion that a good guy with a gun is the solution is utter and complete horse shit. 

Also, per the NYT, seems like Trump was on team Hang Mike Pence too. Shocker...

Yeah, if 3 armed individuals already there before the shooter can't stop them getting in and the reinforcements wait an hour before going in then more armed individuals is hardly going to be a useful solution.

But apparently knowing that this is a bigger problem in America then the rest of the developed world combined is being a propagandist so there's no way to ever get ideas from other countries.

[Week]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

Hey, what could go wrong with herding everyone to one location? Also, way to make burning down the school way more problematic.

 

 

[Jaxom 1974]

2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Here is the coward Ted Cruz running from hard questions:

 

I saw this.  Ted Cruz cannot be drummed out of public service quickly enough.  

And I really need to see ALL journalists start pushing back.  Following up.  Worry less about the access.  Do the job of the Fourth Estate and start putting these politicians feet to the fire. Journalists need to realize that the people of this country are ready to hear what they can discover.  Stop waiting for the book and book tour.  Tell us NOW, I guarantee we'll want to watch the inevitable movie made about your journey seeking the truth later on down the line.  And this means Democrats might be under the microscope later on too, but just ask the questions and do not let up.

We can demand more from our politicians, even as it is evident one party especially has no interest in listening to the actual will of the people.  But we absolutely need to have more our journalists.

[Fez]

3 hours ago, ljkeane said:

It does look terrible, and clearly they were wrong to wait given how it's turned out, but if he wasn't actively shooting people at that point I could see why they might be reluctant just to charge into a classroom full of kids he'd barricaded himself into. It's hard to see how that wouldn't result in a lot of kids getting shot. Obviously with hindsight that happened anyway but I could see why they might want to try and convince him to surrender or at least use the best trained people they have to go in.

Standard police training in the US ever since Columbine is to respond to school shootings by engaging immediately. It is supposed to be drilled into cops' heads to not treat them like ordinary hostage situations because the motivations are so different.

These cops were cowards, incompetent, or both.

[Jaxom 1974]

3 minutes ago, Fez said:

 

These cops were cowards, incompetent, or both.

Will there be a proper investigation though?  This is Texas.  Texans are never wrong.  

 

[Zorral]

15 minutes ago, Fez said:

Standard police training in the US ever since Columbine is to respond to school shootings by engaging immediately. It is supposed to be drilled into cops' heads to not treat them like ordinary hostage situations because the motivations are so different.

These cops were cowards, incompetent, or both.

From the accounts provided by children in neighboring classroom they did what the drills had taught, including hiding very quietly under a tableclothed table, and the teacher getting the screen out of the window, and getting the kids through it, and away.

IOW the teachers and kids did what they'd drilled, while the cops did not.

I keep thinking of David Simon's We Own This City, in which some of the real life Baltimore cops complain if they're assigned to certain sections of the city because there isn't enough opportunity "to earn," or crow about being in a section with lots of opportunity "to earn," or crow about how he's learned in the new section how "to earn."

 

[Fez]

6 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Will there be a proper investigation though?  This is Texas.  Texans are never wrong.  

 

If it can be framed as "why didn't these guys use their guns?" maybe Texans will turn on them for not being sufficiently gun-loving. But they are cops, and Texans love their cops.

Although, if the border patrol team comes out swinging against them that might help; since Texans love those cops even more.

[JGP]

Like, I know and have known plenty of gun owners. All of them seemed fine with required checks, and none of them owned AR type rifles. Rare sampling, of course, but suggestive. Even cross party, gun owners aren't assholes in general.

I mean, use the Tea Party tack or something, but by progressives of all stripes, and everyone else who has a heart? Citizen pressure for legit gun control by State Referendum, maybe? Is that even a US process anymore?

[mormont]

I don't have sufficient knowledge of the situation or of police tactics to say whether the officers were right or wrong in this case.

I do know that the discussion of that aspect of the situation is one I'm not interested in. Because it shifts responsibility to the police response, and by the time the police response is a factor, it's already a tragedy. Prevention is the issue. Not response.

[KingintheNorth4]

3 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Here is the coward Ted Cruz running from hard questions:

 

I'm guessing he ran off to Cancun again after this.