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3 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

Quote please?

"One man had died at the feet of the Stranger, a single candle flickering above him. She could feel its heat, and the scent that it gave off tickled her nose. The candle burned with a dark red flame, she knew; for those with eyes, the corpse would have seemed awash in a ruddy glow. Before summoning the serving men to carry him away, she knelt and felt his face, tracing the line of his jaw, brushing her fingers across his cheeks and nose, touching his hair. Curly hair, and thick. A handsome face, unlined. He was young. She wondered what had brought him here to seek the gift of death. Dying bravos oft found their way to the House of Black and White, to hasten their ends, but this man had no wounds that she could find.

The second body was that of an old woman. She had gone to sleep upon a dreaming couch, in one of the hidden alcoves where special candles conjured visions of things loved and lost. A sweet death and a gentle one, the kindly man was fond of saying. Her fingers told her that the old woman had died with a smile on her face. She had not been dead long. Her body was still warm to the touch. Her skin is so soft, like old thin leather that’s been folded and wrinkled a thousand times.

-ADWD 

and 

"The old woman had no purse, no wealth at all but for a ring on one thin finger. On the handsome man she found four golden dragons out of Westeros. She was running the ball of her thumb across the most worn of them, trying to decide which king it showed, when she heard the door opening softly behind her." 

"The old woman had no purse, no wealth at all but for a ring on one thin finger" 

---------------- 

Earlier in the same chapter we here how the slave ships had already returned from Hardhome while Jon had yet to respond suggesting the Braavos plot was/is ahead of the Westeros plotline. 

The single candle burning beside Loras is a symbol of his undying love for Renly. Olenna's empty purse is a sign of her sacrifice. Revenge against Cersei for the destruction of her family. The contract will be fulfilled by the Valonqar. 

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Eh, it's an interesting theory but...nothing more.  Please stop presenting it as if it's fact. 

I can almost go for the young man being Loras and him wanting to die due to his lover Renly dying.  But I certainly don't buy the old woman being Olenna.  Why would she kill herself to get revenge on Cercei (and when exactly did Cercei destroy the Tyrells?) right after she just proved herself more than capable of taking care of her own machinations when she poisoned that sadistic little shit Joffery to protect her granddaughter?

I'm gonna need to see more proof from future books before I believe these two dead people are Loras and Olenna.  So, again, interesting theory but nothing more.   

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1 hour ago, Prince of the North said:

Eh, it's an interesting theory but...nothing more.  Please stop presenting it as if it's fact. 

I can almost go for the young man being Loras and him wanting to die due to his lover Renly dying.  But I certainly don't buy the old woman being Olenna.  Why would she kill herself to get revenge on Cercei (and when exactly did Cercei destroy the Tyrells?) right after she just proved herself more than capable of taking care of her own machinations when she poisoned that sadistic little shit Joffery to protect her granddaughter?

I'm gonna need to see more proof from future books before I believe these two dead people are Loras and Olenna.  So, again, interesting theory but nothing more.   

I have my own head-canon for this stuff seeing as the books may never come out.  

Regardless, Cersei is set to rise back to power with the aid of Robert Strong. The show didn't lie about that... 

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9 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

So honestly? You think Lady Olenna Tyrell can be the real power in Highgarden while also being so incredibly gullible?

Everyone in this series thinks they're smart and have things under control until they get cleaned up by the trap / betrayal / unexpected development they didn't see coming.  And everyone trusts LF because he is so obliging and clever yet not important enough to be taken seriously as a threat until too late.  Maybe start another thread on the purple wedding if you want to convince people of your take on it.

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4 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

I have my own head-canon for this stuff seeing as the books may never come out.  

Regardless, Cersei is set to rise back to power with the aid of Robert Strong. The show didn't lie about that... 

Ah, fair enough, it's your own head-canon.  Somewhat refreshing that you're not doubling down on your supposition being fact and suggesting anyone who doesn't believe the same is blind/stupid.  That's far too often the case.

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On 5/20/2022 at 8:05 PM, the trees have eyes said:

Everyone in this series thinks they're smart and have things under control until they get cleaned up by the trap / betrayal / unexpected development they didn't see coming.  And everyone trusts LF because he is so obliging and clever yet not important enough to be taken seriously as a threat until too late.  Maybe start another thread on the purple wedding if you want to convince people of your take on it.

It's not a question of being smart or stupid. If someone lied to you and put you're loved one in mortal danger, and then never even confessed that lie, would you then trust them to get you out of it? Would you continue to trust them when their plan is for you to take all the risks -- not just with you but your entire family, including directly and deliberately endangering the very person you are trying to save -- while they remain perfectly safe? 

Sorry, but Lady Olenna would never go for this. She is the woman who successfully navigated her way through a hopelessly patriarchal society to become the titular head of the most powerful house in the realm. And the fact is, long before the Starks arrived at King's Landing she had three of her grandsons at court, along with their respective pages, squires, stewards, servants and others who would love nothing more than to earn their lady's praise, and coin, by feeding her any bit of news, rumor, innuendo, gossip and otherwise about not just Joffrey or the royal family but everyone else at court. Plus, she had Renly at Highgarden for however many weeks it took to put that wedding together, and he would have regaled her nightly about all the skeletons in the Baratheon/Lannister closet.

So, no, there is no possible way to imagine that Lady Olenna did not already know all about the little lion long before the wedding negotiations began, or that she could be so unbelievably gullible as to implicitly trust this man who deliberately created this dire situation for Margaery in the first place, and then would have happily watched her be dragged off to the wedding chamber to be beaten and tortured by worm-lips. And if you look closely at what Sansa does "reveal" about Joffrey, you'll see that it is nothing that is not widely known at this point and/or was witnessed by her own grandsons.

Plus, if her plan is to kill the king and frame Tyrion, there is no way she can expect Sansa to just trot off to Highgarden in the aftermath because she will be a suspect too. And there is no reason why LF would spill the entire Willas plan to the Lannisters -- which could only have the extremely obvious result of her being quick-married to one of their own -- when all he has to do is tell is co-conspirator that all this talk of marrying Willas is causing her to rethink wearing the hairnet, which would doom Margaery to misery, torture and an early death.

And all of this is assuming, despite any and all evidence and even outright contradiction in the text, that Margaery is in any danger at all from Joffrey.

So sorry, but the wine theory falls apart when confronted with fact after fact after fact in the text, and even the assumptions used to square one part of it contradict the assumptions needed to square other parts. It just doesn't work, on any level.

I have started threads on this, lots of them. At this point, we'll just have to wait for the text to clearly and unambiguously reveal the truth -- and then how fun it will be reading the posts from all the people who, kof, kof, knew it all along.

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Posted (edited)
On 5/21/2022 at 12:46 AM, butterweedstrover said:

Curly hair, and thick. A handsome face, unlined. He was young. She wondered what had brought him here to seek the gift of death. Dying bravos oft found their way to the House of Black and White, to hasten their ends, but this man had no wounds that she could find.

Wasn't Loras badly burned and wounded? -> "it is reported that Loras was horribly injured by quarrels, maces, and boiling oil in the battle."

Though, could be that the report about Loras was false.

Edited by Megorova
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20 minutes ago, Megorova said:

Wasn't Loras badly burned and wounded? -> "it is reported that Loras was horribly injured by quarrels, maces, and boiling oil in the battle."

Though, could be that the report about Loras was false.

That wasn't Loras. 

Loras used that burnt body to escape and free himself. 

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2 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

That wasn't Loras. 

Loras used that burnt body to escape and free himself. 

But it's not a "burnt body" yet, right?  The rumor or talk was that Loras was dying of his wounds.  But, of course, "dying" is not "dead".  So, if that's actually the case...then whomever it is would have to be masquerading as Loras or would have to ultimately perish.  Then, if this is actually the case, the question becomes...why?  To what end?  

Also, why would Loras even need to "escape"?  From what?  What exactly would have prevented Loras from simply travelling to the HoBaW to die, if he so chose?

The theory that the dead old woman and dead young man in the HoBaW are Olenna and Loras is extremely thin and based on virtually nothing but supposition on your part. 

 

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19 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

But it's not a "burnt body" yet, right?  The rumor or talk was that Loras was dying of his wounds.  But, of course, "dying" is not "dead".  So, if that's actually the case...then whomever it is would have to be masquerading as Loras or would have to ultimately perish.  Then, if this is actually the case, the question becomes...why?  To what end?  

Also, why would Loras even need to "escape"?  From what?  What exactly would have prevented Loras from simply travelling to the HoBaW to die, if he so chose?

The theory that the dead old woman and dead young man in the HoBaW are Olenna and Loras is extremely thin and based on virtually nothing but supposition on your part. 

 

See how well you recognize someone when you dump boiling oil onto them. 

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

See how well you recognize someone when you dump boiling oil onto them. 

Again, stop presenting your "own head canon" as fact.  Also, why does Loras need to fake his death in the first place?  Again, what exactly was preventing him from travelling to the HoBaW to die if that was what he wanted?

Edited by Prince of the North
Forgot question mark.
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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

Again, stop presenting your "own head canon" as fact. 

I want to say I'm not but sadly I don't think that would convince a person like you. 

16 minutes ago, Prince of the North said:

Also, why does Loras need to fake his death in the first place?  Again, what exactly was preventing him from travelling to the HoBaW to die if that was what he wanted?

My guess would be he doesn't want people searching for him. Or, you know, it was the author wanting a red herring to throw readers off.  

Edited by butterweedstrover
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44 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

I want to say I'm not but sadly I don't think that would convince a person like you. 

 

But you are.  Prefacing your extremely thin theory with something like "I think", "I believe", etc. goes a long way.  And do you mean "a person like me" who doesn't present their extremely thin, unsupported-in-any-way opinions/theories as facts?  OK, guilty as charged.:rolleyes:   

Quote

My guess would be he doesn't want people searching for him. Or, you know, it was the author wanting a red herring to throw readers off.

First, Loras is a member of the Kings Guard and also a scion of a Lord paramount and, as such, can pretty much do whatever he wants (within reason).  Very, very few could even begin to question him on anything.  Second, he'd be gone before anyone knew it, if he took any pains to leave at least somewhat secretly.  The need to fake his death simply doesn't seem necessary.  Third, if Loras really did fake his death to then sneak away for some reason to...die, it does seem very odd to plant the rumor that he was gravely wounded and still not dead rather than simply to plant the rumor that he was, you know, dead.  

Finally, even if we grant that Martin wanted a "red herring" to throw readers off, why?  To what end?   

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23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

I have started threads on this, lots of them. At this point, we'll just have to wait for the text to clearly and unambiguously reveal the truth -- and then how fun it will be reading the posts from all the people who, kof, kof, knew it all along.

I didn't read anything except this.  I'm aware of your insistence on your own reasoning being correct and was obliquely and maybe not so tactfully inviting you to take it elsewhere.  You're welcome to wait but you may be disappointed.

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1 hour ago, the trees have eyes said:

I didn't read anything except this.  I'm aware of your insistence on your own reasoning being correct and was obliquely and maybe not so tactfully inviting you to take it elsewhere.  You're welcome to wait but you may be disappointed.

I've been on this board a long time. B)

The OP brought up the poisoning first, but he incorrectly stated it was solved. I was merely correcting that claim in accordance with the facts in the book. So frankly, it's a little insulting for someone else to come in here and "invite" me to take my opinions elsewhere. 

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The Loras-is-fine theory never made sense to me. Loras led the assault on Dragonstone before either Margaery or Cersei were arrested. The fleet was dispatched to the Reach as soon as the castle was taken, which was always the plan. Faking an injury after the battle would be completely unnecessary and accomplishes nothing.

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17 hours ago, Prince of the North said:

But you are.  Prefacing your extremely thin theory with something like "I think", "I believe", etc. goes a long way.  And do you mean "a person like me" who doesn't present their extremely thin, unsupported-in-any-way opinions/theories as facts?  OK, guilty as charged.:rolleyes:    

Oh well, I thought that was assumed given the premise of the discussion. In the case of what I am saying Loras wouldn't be dead, there is no need to preface with "I think" to every statement. Especially not the piece you quoted. I do not think dumping boiling oil disfigures a person, that is something true regardless. 

As for the person like you, I have a distinct memory of you trolling me with the laugh emojis so I don't know how serious you are with your current complaints.  

17 hours ago, Prince of the North said:

First, Loras is a member of the Kings Guard and also a scion of a Lord paramount and, as such, can pretty much do whatever he wants (within reason).  Very, very few could even begin to question him on anything.  Second, he'd be gone before anyone knew it, if he took any pains to leave at least somewhat secretly.  The need to fake his death simply doesn't seem necessary.  Third, if Loras really did fake his death to then sneak away for some reason to...die, it does seem very odd to plant the rumor that he was gravely wounded and still not dead rather than simply to plant the rumor that he was, you know, dead.  

Finally, even if we grant that Martin wanted a "red herring" to throw readers off, why?  To what end?   

The boiled person is real, it was not faked. But it works just as well to leave them as an excuse to abscond without being followed. A Kings Guard would not be forgotten if he just wandered off. 

As for Martin... it was to leave readers assuming they knew his location (Dragonstone) so they would suspect he would be found anywhere else. 

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Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

The Loras-is-fine theory never made sense to me. Loras led the assault on Dragonstone before either Margaery or Cersei were arrested. The fleet was dispatched to the Reach as soon as the castle was taken, which was always the plan. Faking an injury after the battle would be completely unnecessary and accomplishes nothing.

Loras said in ASOS: "When the sun has set, no candle can replace it" 

This was to a question about love. He loved Renly and no candle could replace him. His motivations pre-date what happened to Margaery or Cersei, that is why there is a single candle burning before the body with a ruddy glow.  

Olenna is a bit different, she commits suicide in the show as well after the loss of her family. Margaery will die, but so will her extended family in Highgarden (probably due to Euron) and Mace because of Connington. 

Edited by butterweedstrover
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Posted (edited)
On 5/23/2022 at 6:10 PM, butterweedstrover said:

I want to say I'm not but sadly I don't think that would convince a person like you. 

My guess would be he doesn't want people searching for him. Or, you know, it was the author wanting a red herring to throw readers off.  

Another possibility is that the passage was one of GRRM’s many, many, homages to other works of fiction that have inspired him.  Whenever you see passages like this look for any odd phrases and then google search the phrase and see what comes up.

In this particular passage the term “dreaming couch” caught my attention.  What exactly is a “dreaming couch”?  It’s not something we hear about anywhere else in the series.  

So when you google “dreaming couch” up comes a Hugo award finalist sci fi novel, Beyond the Blue Event Horizon, written by Frederick Pohl back in 1980.  In the book, the “dreaming couch” is a device used by aliens called the “The Old Ones” who use the device on the protagonists which cause them to relive memories of dead “Old Ones”.   The book is part of a larger series known as the Heechee Saga.  

The fact that the book was a Hugo finalist in 1980, makes it almost a sure bet that the Hugo obsessed GRRM would have been familiar with the book.  

So it’s very possible that the two dead characters may be further homages to some of Pohl’s characters in that book, or in some of Pohl’s other books.

Edited by Frey family reunion
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