Wilbur Posted May 20, 2022 Share Posted May 20, 2022 23 minutes ago, MeanMrMustard said: Presented without comment: an outright defense of Russian invasion from a serious anglosphere person. Worth reading even if you're not inclined agree. This morning I shoveled quite a lot of horse$hit out of the barns, so I recognize it when I see it. This is it. The whole article is based on the assumption that Ukraine and Ukrainians don't have any business choosing what they want to do with their own lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted May 20, 2022 Share Posted May 20, 2022 In response to Finklestein, Soviet losses in WWII were not solely Russian losses. Millions of Ukrainians, Poles, Belorussians, Jews, Kazakhs, Uzbeks etc. died at Nazi hands. Millions of them fought the Nazis. The Russians did not have a monopoly of suffering, nor of fighting the Nazis. Their suffering gives them no right to subjugate people who suffered and fought likewise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilbur Posted May 20, 2022 Share Posted May 20, 2022 On the other hand, this account of the SOBR and OMON intrusion into Kiev in the first days of the war is excellent. Know No Mercy: The Russian Cops Who Tried To Storm Kyiv By Themselves - The Debrief Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maithanet Posted May 20, 2022 Share Posted May 20, 2022 8 minutes ago, SeanF said: In response to Finklestein, Soviet losses in WWII were not solely Russian losses. Millions of Ukrainians, Poles, Belorussians, Jews, Kazakhs, Uzbeks etc. died at Nazi hands. Millions of them fought the Nazis. The Russians did not have a monopoly of suffering, nor of fighting the Nazis. Their suffering gives them no right to subjugate people who suffered and fought likewise. Not that it really matters, but as a portion of population, Ukraine suffered more egregious losses than Russia in WW2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted May 20, 2022 Share Posted May 20, 2022 16 minutes ago, SeanF said: In response to Finklestein, Soviet losses in WWII were not solely Russian losses. Millions of Ukrainians, Poles, Belorussians, Jews, Kazakhs, Uzbeks etc. died at Nazi hands. Millions of them fought the Nazis. The Russians did not have a monopoly of suffering, nor of fighting the Nazis. Their suffering gives them no right to subjugate people who suffered and fought likewise. Yup. Russia itself lost 14 million out of a population of 110 million, but Ukraine lost 7 million out of a population of 41 million. Ukraine suffered worse than Russia did during WWII (16% population loss to 12%). Belarus lost 2.3 million out of 9 million, which is 25% and worse than either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeanMrMustard Posted May 20, 2022 Share Posted May 20, 2022 29 minutes ago, Werthead said: which was a self-defeating move. Opinions may differ on this--something else to keep in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted May 20, 2022 Share Posted May 20, 2022 It's the same tired old nonsense that's been touted around by some since the start of the war. Absolutely not a single new thing in it. Worth a read? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maithanet Posted May 20, 2022 Share Posted May 20, 2022 8 minutes ago, MeanMrMustard said: Opinions may differ on this--something else to keep in mind. The quote you provided was a bunch of Putin-apologies and lies. Are you defending the opinions in that article? If so, come out and say so, and we can have that discussion. If not, it's not something we need to "keep in mind". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted May 20, 2022 Share Posted May 20, 2022 It's also very disappointing to see anyone echoing Russia's Ukraine/Nazi propaganda. It is very dangerous to legitimize that as a casus belli in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeanMrMustard Posted May 20, 2022 Share Posted May 20, 2022 1 minute ago, Maithanet said: The quote you provided was a bunch of Putin-apologies and lies. Are you defending the opinions in that article? If so, come out and say so, and we can have that discussion. If not, it's not something we need to "keep in mind". That doesn't follow. They're not my opinions; I can suggest they're worth considering without "defending" them. Otherwise, you best ask about me. You wouldn't like it if I chose to debate you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGP Posted May 20, 2022 Share Posted May 20, 2022 lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maithanet Posted May 20, 2022 Share Posted May 20, 2022 4 minutes ago, MeanMrMustard said: That doesn't follow. They're not my opinions; I can suggest they're worth considering without "defending" them. Otherwise, you best ask about me. You wouldn't like it if I chose to debate you. So you don't hold those opinions? Then we agree. What would we be debating? Although you still haven't answered why you consider those opinions (which you do not hold, apparently) to be worth "keeping in mind". I'm aware of what Putin's apologists claim is the justification for this war. We discussed them extensively back in January and February, and they haven't changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Padraig Posted May 20, 2022 Share Posted May 20, 2022 Terribly written. I had to look up this guy. He has a Ph.D. in Political Science from Princeton University. Wow. I would have thought that was quite prestigious. I hope nobody here studied Political Science in Princeton. That would be embarrasing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeanMrMustard Posted May 20, 2022 Share Posted May 20, 2022 2 minutes ago, Padraig said: Terribly written. I had to look up this guy. He has a Ph.D. in Political Science from Princeton University. Wow. I would have thought that was quite prestigious. I hope nobody here studied Political Science in Princeton. That would be embarrasing! It's a transcript from a live interview, not a text Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clueless Northman Posted May 20, 2022 Share Posted May 20, 2022 3 minutes ago, Padraig said: Terribly written. I had to look up this guy. He has a Ph.D. in Political Science from Princeton University. Wow. I would have thought that was quite prestigious. I hope nobody here studied Political Science in Princeton. That would be embarrasing! Norman Finkelstein? He's been pretty famous for decades, and some of his views would probably fit well with some people here - and go pretty badly with others, of course:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Finkelstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted May 20, 2022 Share Posted May 20, 2022 5 minutes ago, Padraig said: I hope nobody here studied Political Science in Princeton. That would be embarrasing! Well, I wish I could've gotten into Princeton, which is one of the best programs in the world. Anyway, Finkelstein has always been more celebrity and provocateur than academic, this isn't anything new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeanMrMustard Posted May 20, 2022 Share Posted May 20, 2022 6 minutes ago, Maithanet said: So you don't hold those opinions? Then we agree. What would we be debating? Although you still haven't answered why you consider those opinions (which you do not hold, apparently) to be worth "keeping in mind". I'm aware of what Putin's apologists claim is the justification for this war. We discussed them extensively back in January and February, and they haven't changed. I didn't say if I do or don't. The reason it's worth considering it is that Norman Finkelstein is not a "Putin apologist" so one might find it edifying to hear the case from someone unaffiliated with Putin or Russia's agenda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeanMrMustard Posted May 20, 2022 Share Posted May 20, 2022 2 minutes ago, DMC said: Well, I wish I could've gotten into Princeton, which is one of the best programs in the world. Anyway, Finkelstein has always been more celebrity and provocateur than academic, this isn't anything new. In my opinion, you've reversed the stream of what happened with Norman's career.https://chomsky.info/power01/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DMC Posted May 20, 2022 Share Posted May 20, 2022 1 minute ago, MeanMrMustard said: In my opinion, you've reversed the stream of what happened with Norman's career. Huh? Finkelstein has been controversial literally his entire career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MeanMrMustard Posted May 20, 2022 Share Posted May 20, 2022 5 minutes ago, DMC said: Well, I wish I could've gotten into Princeton, which is one of the best programs in the world. Anyway, Finkelstein has always been more celebrity and provocateur than academic, this isn't anything new. I spent some time at Princeton. The real thing to be jealous of is the IAS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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