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Ukraine 15 - Si vis pacem, para bellum


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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, MeanMrMustard said:

Presented without comment: an outright defense of Russian invasion from a serious anglosphere  person. Worth reading even if you're not inclined agree. 

This morning I shoveled quite a lot of horse$hit out of the barns, so I recognize it when I see it.  This is it.

The whole article is based on the assumption that Ukraine and Ukrainians don't have any business choosing what they want to do with their own lives.

Edited by Wilbur
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Posted (edited)

In response to Finklestein, Soviet losses in WWII were not solely Russian losses.  Millions of Ukrainians, Poles, Belorussians, Jews, Kazakhs, Uzbeks etc. died at Nazi hands.  Millions of them fought the Nazis.  The Russians did not have a monopoly of suffering, nor of fighting the Nazis.  Their suffering gives them no right to subjugate people who suffered and fought likewise.

Edited by SeanF
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8 minutes ago, SeanF said:

In response to Finklestein, Soviet losses in WWII were not solely Russian losses.  Millions of Ukrainians, Poles, Belorussians, Jews, Kazakhs, Uzbeks etc. died at Nazi hands.  Millions of them fought the Nazis.  The Russians did not have a monopoly of suffering, nor of fighting the Nazis.  Their suffering gives them no right to subjugate people who suffered and fought likewise.

Not that it really matters, but as a portion of population, Ukraine suffered more egregious losses than Russia in WW2. 

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16 minutes ago, SeanF said:

In response to Finklestein, Soviet losses in WWII were not solely Russian losses.  Millions of Ukrainians, Poles, Belorussians, Jews, Kazakhs, Uzbeks etc. died at Nazi hands.  Millions of them fought the Nazis.  The Russians did not have a monopoly of suffering, nor of fighting the Nazis.  Their suffering gives them no right to subjugate people who suffered and fought likewise.

Yup. Russia itself lost 14 million out of a population of 110 million, but Ukraine lost 7 million out of a population of 41 million. Ukraine suffered worse than Russia did during WWII (16% population loss to 12%). Belarus lost 2.3 million out of 9 million, which is 25% and worse than either.

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8 minutes ago, MeanMrMustard said:

Opinions may differ on this--something else to keep in mind. 

The quote you provided was a bunch of Putin-apologies and lies. 

Are you defending the opinions in that article?  If so, come out and say so, and we can have that discussion.  If not, it's not something we need to "keep in mind".

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1 minute ago, Maithanet said:

The quote you provided was a bunch of Putin-apologies and lies. 

Are you defending the opinions in that article?  If so, come out and say so, and we can have that discussion.  If not, it's not something we need to "keep in mind".

That doesn't follow. They're not my opinions; I can suggest they're worth considering without "defending" them.

 

Otherwise, you best ask about me. You wouldn't like it if I chose to debate you. 

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4 minutes ago, MeanMrMustard said:

That doesn't follow. They're not my opinions; I can suggest they're worth considering without "defending" them.

 

Otherwise, you best ask about me. You wouldn't like it if I chose to debate you. 

So you don't hold those opinions?  Then we agree.  What would we be debating?

Although you still haven't answered why you consider those opinions (which you do not hold, apparently) to be worth "keeping in mind".  I'm aware of what Putin's apologists claim is the justification for this war.  We discussed them extensively back in January and February, and they haven't changed. 

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Terribly written.  I had to look up this guy.  He has a Ph.D. in Political Science from Princeton University.  Wow.  I would have thought that was quite prestigious.   I hope nobody here studied Political Science in Princeton.  That would be embarrasing!

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2 minutes ago, Padraig said:

Terribly written.  I had to look up this guy.  He has a Ph.D. in Political Science from Princeton University.  Wow.  I would have thought that was quite prestigious.   I hope nobody here studied Political Science in Princeton.  That would be embarrasing!

It's a transcript from a live interview, not a text

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3 minutes ago, Padraig said:

Terribly written.  I had to look up this guy.  He has a Ph.D. in Political Science from Princeton University.  Wow.  I would have thought that was quite prestigious.   I hope nobody here studied Political Science in Princeton.  That would be embarrasing!

Norman Finkelstein? He's been pretty famous for decades, and some of his views would probably fit well with some people here - and go pretty badly with others, of course:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Finkelstein

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5 minutes ago, Padraig said:

I hope nobody here studied Political Science in Princeton.  That would be embarrasing!

Well, I wish I could've gotten into Princeton, which is one of the best programs in the world.  Anyway, Finkelstein has always been more celebrity and provocateur than academic, this isn't anything new.

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6 minutes ago, Maithanet said:

So you don't hold those opinions?  Then we agree.  What would we be debating?

Although you still haven't answered why you consider those opinions (which you do not hold, apparently) to be worth "keeping in mind".  I'm aware of what Putin's apologists claim is the justification for this war.  We discussed them extensively back in January and February, and they haven't changed. 

I didn't say if I do or don't. 

 

The reason it's worth considering it is that Norman Finkelstein is not a "Putin apologist" so one might find it edifying to hear the case from someone unaffiliated with Putin or Russia's agenda.

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2 minutes ago, DMC said:

Well, I wish I could've gotten into Princeton, which is one of the best programs in the world.  Anyway, Finkelstein has always been more celebrity and provocateur than academic, this isn't anything new.

In my opinion, you've reversed the stream of what happened with Norman's career.

https://chomsky.info/power01/

 

 

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1 minute ago, MeanMrMustard said:

In my opinion, you've reversed the stream of what happened with Norman's career.

Huh?  Finkelstein has been controversial literally his entire career.

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5 minutes ago, DMC said:

Well, I wish I could've gotten into Princeton, which is one of the best programs in the world.  Anyway, Finkelstein has always been more celebrity and provocateur than academic, this isn't anything new.

I spent some time at Princeton. The real thing to be jealous of is the IAS

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