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Ukraine 15 - Si vis pacem, para bellum


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6 minutes ago, Winterfell is Burning said:

Which is essentially the key point of the Putin apologists in the far left (the ones on the right are usually Trump/Q-anon types)

Ironically, and this is still hilarious to me, actual Russian Qanonists (and it still boggles my mind they exist, and are numerous) now hate Putin and think the war should end because of his vaccine and lockdown policies. It looks like some of the Russian troll farms have started turning out people who genuinely believe this stuff, rather than just cynically pushing it to destabilise the US.

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On Finkelstein, I'm reminded of the infamous occasion when he addressed a tearful student who asked at a university appearance how he could question Israel defending itself from Palestinian terror attacks. It was, suffice it to say, contentious. But he managed to point out that both of his parents had survived the concentration camps, had been in the Warsaw Ghetto, and that all other members of his family on both sides were killed in the Holocaust. And then he said that it was precisely because of what they taught him that he would not accept what Israel was doing to Palestine. And then he added:

"I consider nothing more despicable than to use their suffering and their martyrdom to try to justify the torture the brutalization and the demolition of homes committed against the Palestinians."

Sadly, somewhere along the way, it appears that that is no longer his position; or if it is, it is an unprincipled one,  because he appears to be very willing to allow the Russians to use their suffering under the Nazis to justify their brutalization and the demolition of homes (read: entire cities) of the Ukrainians. Shame.

 

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Norman Finkelstein was the name of the librarian at my elementary school, and my instructor in "Introduction to computers" class in 7th grade.  He taught us how to make a robot walk across the screen of an Apple 2 in Basic.  Circa 1982.

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4 hours ago, Werthead said:

Ironically, and this is still hilarious to me, actual Russian Qanonists (and it still boggles my mind they exist, and are numerous) now hate Putin and think the war should end because of his vaccine and lockdown policies. It looks like some of the Russian troll farms have started turning out people who genuinely believe this stuff, rather than just cynically pushing it to destabilise the US.

"Why are these leopards eating my face now?"

- Putin probably

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8 hours ago, Ran said:

On Finkelstein, I'm reminded of the infamous occasion when he addressed a tearful student who asked at a university appearance how he could question Israel defending itself from Palestinian terror attacks. It was, suffice it to say, contentious. But he managed to point out that both of his parents had survived the concentration camps, had been in the Warsaw Ghetto, and that all other members of his family on both sides were killed in the Holocaust. And then he said that it was precisely because of what they taught him that he would not accept what Israel was doing to Palestine. And then he added:

"I consider nothing more despicable than to use their suffering and their martyrdom to try to justify the torture the brutalization and the demolition of homes committed against the Palestinians."

Sadly, somewhere along the way, it appears that that is no longer his position; or if it is, it is an unprincipled one,  because he appears to be very willing to allow the Russians to use their suffering under the Nazis to justify their brutalization and the demolition of homes (read: entire cities) of the Ukrainians. Shame.

 

Yes, the "crocodile tears" video. He said he would never again be intimidated by those crocodile tears and and now he's not.

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And that is all we’ll say about that. Meta commentary not welcome, folks, lets just get back to discussion.

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It should be stated that the previously mentioned and maligned Finkelstein is not the well known archeologist Israel Finkelstein.

 
Israel Finkelstein is an Israeli archaeologist, professor ...
 
Known for: The Bible Unearthed; David and Solomon; The Forgotten Kingdom
 
Nationality: Israeli
 
Who has impeccable credentials.
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1 hour ago, Werthead said:

A firm rebuttal to Chomsky and other deniers of Ukrainian sovereignty by Ukrainian academic

The world is full of people with various titles, feeling entitled to make public judgements on things they should not, simply because of ignorance. Or bias. In Poland, for example, there are some right wing oriented professors of technical disciplines, who comment on history with great passion. Or mining academy professors, publicly denying human activity influence on climate change.

Sadly the one's fame makes these imaginations audible and everyone feel obliged to argue with the bs. I think time stopped for him somewhere in the past century and there are no updates available anymore, but some warm feelings to soviet union live on.

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Posted (edited)
34 minutes ago, broken one said:

The world is full of people with various titles, feeling entitled to make public judgements on things they should not, simply because of ignorance. Or bias. In Poland, for example, there are some right wing oriented professors of technical disciplines, who comment on history with great passion. Or mining academy professors, publicly denying human activity influence on climate change.

Sadly the one's fame makes these imaginations audible and everyone feel obliged to argue with the bs. I think time stopped for him somewhere in the past century and there are no updates available anymore, but some warm feelings to soviet union live on.

It could also be that Chomsky… Iike some others on the intellectual left feel an instinctive need to offer apologia for the Russians?  Because they don’t know how to deal with clearly imperialist actions coming from an agent they usually defend?

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/watch-irish-mep-blames-nato-for-crisis

The real irony, at least to me, is who their apologia then allies them with and links them to:

https://www.newsweek.com/trump-ally-roger-stone-sides-putin-claims-russia-acting-defensively-1689840?amp=1

 

Edited by Ser Scot A Ellison
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1 minute ago, SeanF said:

Pretty irrefutable, IMHO.

Yes.  Until Chomsky and his cohorts find a Ukrainian willing to offer their take they are always outside agitator’s telling the Ukrainians “what is good for them”.

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1 hour ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

It could also be that Chomsky… Iike some others on the intellectual left feel an instinctive need to offer apologia for the Russians?  Because they don’t know how to deal with clearly imperialist actions coming from an agent they usually defend?

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/watch-irish-mep-blames-nato-for-crisis

The real irony, at least to me, is who their apologia then allies them with and links them to:

https://www.newsweek.com/trump-ally-roger-stone-sides-putin-claims-russia-acting-defensively-1689840?amp=1

 

I think some may be still hunting classic nazis in their egg shaped heads. Cannot tell much about intellect of a random politician  from a EU country, but this will get them some votes, as many people dont want to pay more for fuels, because of country they don't care about.

The West seeing Russia as a perfect gendarme to hold all these noisy tribes (what do they want?) by the face... I sense XIX century vibes :lol:

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Because they don’t know how to deal with clearly imperialist actions coming from an agent they usually defend?

I’d say it’s more they instinctively try to find fault in agents they tend to despise  (America).

3 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

The real irony, at least to me, is who their apologia then allies them with and links them to:

The horseshoe theory is true to an extent.
 there is a reoccurring problem with the left, especially the farther left you you go where they feel comfortable joining up with fascists to combat groups they both hate ideally for wildly different reasons.

A fascist like Steve Bannon hates nato because it’s an impediment from the Based state of Russia conquering more of the the woke west and making it great again.

A standard leftist against it just think it’s upholding of America hegemony is reason for it(nato) to be despised.

 

Edited by Varysblackfyre321
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Posted (edited)

“Frankly, the Red Army in 1944 was more capable of fire and maneuver than a lot of what we’ve seen from this Russian military, and I don’t understand why.” 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/05/21/russia-ukraine-victory/

Quote

 

.... It’s hard to say how long Russia may keep its offensive going, said Boston, the Rand Corp. analyst. Even after the deaths of thousands of Russian soldiers, he said, Russia could continue to lob artillery rounds from a distance for some time.

Still, the trajectory of the conflict perplexes him. Russia defeated Georgian forces in a five-day war in 2008, but the conflict exposed failures within the Russian military, including an inability to quickly adapt when something goes wrong. Moscow set out to reform its military after that conflict, Boston said, and demonstrated improvement in others.

“You just get this feeling like they’ve abandoned everything they’ve tried to learn over the last 10 years and reverted to an older style that they’re more comfortable with,” Boston said. “Frankly, the Red Army in 1944 was more capable of fire and maneuver than a lot of what we’ve seen from this Russian military, and I don’t understand why.”

 

In the meantime many of us remain grief stricken that Russia destroyed Ukraine's plant and seed museum and preservation center.  An incalculable loss for learning Europe's past, and maybe even creating a new food supply as climate change and human activity continues to destroy food production globally.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2321008-priceless-samples-from-ukraines-seed-bank-destroyed-in-bomb-attack/

Edited by Zorral
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2 hours ago, Zorral said:

“Frankly, the Red Army in 1944 was more capable of fire and maneuver than a lot of what we’ve seen from this Russian military, and I don’t understand why.” 

This is the best summary of what's going on I've seen. Russia used similar tactics in 2008 and they did not work, so after smoothly pivoting to a diplomatic solution (from the French, which is why the French are so keen on keeping up dialogue right now, because it worked before) they set about reforming the army. But it seems like the reforms completely failed to have any impact on the ground so they've retreated to their former approach, and are now finding out why they abandoned that approach in the first place.

The Red Army in 1944 also had an absolutely massive logistics division and a huge amount of logistics-driven technology, including railroad cars built on both the Russian and European standard gauge (in the United States and shipped over) so they could effortlessly switch between them. The modern Russian army has severely undervalued logistics, and indeed, the modern Russian army is not designed with long-distance offensive operations in mind.

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2 hours ago, Werthead said:

This is the best summary of what's going on I've seen. Russia used similar tactics in 2008 and they did not work, so after smoothly pivoting to a diplomatic solution (from the French, which is why the French are so keen on keeping up dialogue right now, because it worked before) they set about reforming the army. But it seems like the reforms completely failed to have any impact on the ground so they've retreated to their former approach, and are now finding out why they abandoned that approach in the first place.

The Red Army in 1944 also had an absolutely massive logistics division and a huge amount of logistics-driven technology, including railroad cars built on both the Russian and European standard gauge (in the United States and shipped over) so they could effortlessly switch between them. The modern Russian army has severely undervalued logistics, and indeed, the modern Russian army is not designed with long-distance offensive operations in mind.

The Red Army of 1944 had everything going for it.  Millions of combat-hardened veterans, determined to destroy the Nazis, and vast amounts of Western equipment.

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The Red Army of 1944 had everything going for it.  Millions of combat-hardened veterans, determined to destroy the Nazis, and vast amounts of Western equipment.

And effective leadership. Zhukov knew what he was about and knew to reinforce successes and let field commanders follow their initiative. Operation Bagration succeeded far, far beyond their most optimistic projections partially because Soviet commanders on the ground suddenly realised the German lines were Swiss cheese with almost nothing behind them and could shatter if they just went for it, rather than sticking to the much more conservative original targets. That ended the war months earlier than if they'd been too terrified to show initiative.

At almost every single turn, the Russians have shown a startling ignorance of their own tactics from WWII, despite them bringing up WWII every ten seconds.

Edited by Werthead
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