Star Wars: Entering an uncivilized era

[Lord Varys]

37 minutes ago, Denvek said:

"Clearly" is often a very subjective word. And just because you or I don't necessarily see it as a big problem doesn't mean other people won't. And even if none of the people working on the PT intended to make those parallels, the people who do see them should still point them out so that next time they can avoid any inadvertent stereotyping.

Well, stereotyping as such isn't that bad nor can it be avoided. I get it that it is problematic to repeat racist stereotypes from the 1930s ... but the problem with that kind of thing is to establish, spread, and reinforce racist ideology. It isn't so much about people personally being offended or insulted (feeling insulted by a piece of art is a subjective thing, after all) but rather about racism being spread and deeper ingrained in the general culture.

The latter you can and should avoid - the former you really can't avoid. I certainly can understand why you might feel offended by this kind of thing - but in general I feel intention should play a (crucial) role in the insulting department. If it is clear that you didn't want to insult me, for instance, then I'm not offended to the same degree as if you wanted to do that.

This doesn't mean it is okay to unintentionally draw or create a racist caricature ... I just don't think that the examples from the PT qualify as such. I mean, do we actually think young people make the connection that the Neimoidians are evil space Asians? And learn from racist clichés about Asians in general?

I could see that if they actually looked like Asians ... but they don't. And the Watto and Jar Jar/Gungans example seem to work in a similar manner.

21 minutes ago, Week said:

In addition to the thick accent, their attire is based on chinese imperial regalia and their colony planets are deku, cato, and koru (japanese inspired). 

Their native language of "Pak Pak" is also ... something else. Not something from the film, but built off of that foundation. https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Pak_Pak

• Myo not fee werr. ("I do not feel well.")
• Zuwenda! ("Surrender!")
• Aands zup! ("Hands up!")
• Retweet! ("Retreat")

I guess it basically bottles down to what you want to do with that kind of thing. Is it okay to use real world cultures/languages to create fantasy beings ... or not? You will always with stereotypes and simplifications and certain aspects of a given culture or language when doing that.

Funny tidbit: As I said, in the German it is a French accent, apparently in the French, Spanish, and Italian the accent is Russian. Would be really great to know how they talk in the Russian version if there is one ;-).

Apparently the general Neimoidian accent in the original is Japanese, but Gunray's specific accent is Thai.

[DMC]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I certainly can understand why you might feel offended by this kind of thing - but in general I feel intention should play a (crucial) role in the insulting department. If it is clear that you didn't want to insult me, for instance, then I'm not offended to the same degree as if you wanted to do that.

This doesn't mean it is okay to unintentionally draw or create a racist caricature ... I just don't think that the examples from the PT qualify as such. I mean, do we actually think young people make the connection that the Neimoidians are evil space Asians? And learn from racist clichés about Asians in general?

You're really grasping for a distinction without a difference if you acknowledge that there's a connection between the Neimoidians and the crude racist East Asian accents but then say it's not a racist caricature because they, ya know, look like aliens. 

Further, if you get that people "might feel offended by this kind of thing," then there really isn't much of an argument here.  The main argument was that those of us that identified such connections are "just looking to be offended," these connections were all in our head, and identifying these connections meant we either had a political agenda or were racists.  Doesn't seem you agree with those preposterous notions. 

The point was never that it was intentional or Lucas is racist or even that it was that huge of a deal - such racist caricatures are in plenty of other films, especially those made over twenty years ago.  The point, at least IMO, is that these caricatures should be avoided, indeed are avoided more and more in the industry, and the ST avoided such usage.

[Myrddin]

Is this the point in this Star Wars thread we return to discussing Batman? Because y'all are all out of topics as we wait for Friday.

[Werthead]

Andor will have the longest Star Wars season yet, consisting of 12 episodes in its first season with a similarly-sized second season already in pre-production. Apparently it's a two-season project with more of an ensemble cast than the other shows, and Mon Mothma is apparently a major focus for the story as well as Cassian Andor.

[Jaxom 1974]

Cassian Andor...who needed his own show as much as Boba Fett did...

I mean, what are they thinking? Putting a focus on such a dull character? I mean, I actually really like Rogue One, despite Cassian.

Now, if this show is more focused on Mon Motha attempting to build the Rebellion coalition, that could be interesting. Cassian could even be a character, but a focus?  

[Lord Varys]

Rogue One has some of the shallowest characters in movie history. The only three-dimensional character there is the robot. Mind you, the premise of the movie isn't bad, but it is poorly executed, creating fake tension and using a standard movie formula.

I honestly don't recall who Cassian Andor is ... I deduce that he must be the male lead because I know the show is about the guy who recruited the female lead of Rogue One, but that's just abstract knowledge.

[sifth]

I wonder if Darth Vader will appear in that show. You know Disney wont be able to resist, lol

[Lord Varys]

12 minutes ago, sifth said:

I wonder if Darth Vader will appear in that show. You know Disney wont be able to resist, lol

Well, we get him in Kenobi already ... and he certainly would fit nicely in a show about the early Rebellion.

[sifth]

7 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, we get him in Kenobi already ... and he certainly would fit nicely in a show about the early Rebellion.

Vader/Anakin or at least his ghost, is going to show up in that Ahsoka show.............because you know Disney can't resist, lol

[Lord Varys]

12 hours ago, sifth said:

Vader/Anakin or at least his ghost, is going to show up in that Ahsoka show.............because you know Disney can't resist, lol

Well, there you don't really need him.

But in a show in the era of the Galactic Empire I really would like to see Vader and Palpatine and as many lackeys of the Emperor as possible - the hangers-on at the court, various Moffs and Grand Moffs, Tarkin, Mas Amedda, Sly Moore, Sate Pestage, etc.

And after they took Thrawn from the old EU and also have the ISB included in the 'new canon' the logical next step would be to have Armand and, especially, Ysanne Isard. The latter could be a really eerie villain with her mismatched eyes and her Iceheart demeanor.

I mean, Star Wars does have lots of interesting stories about espionage and infiltration, and very interesting plots in a Rebellion show could revolve around the ISB trying to infiltrate the Rebellion, possibly using brainwashed sleeper agents or deep moles while the Rebellion also places or recruits sympathizers and agents in the Imperial hierarchy.

That could be much better than this western style backwater stuff which is literally the only thing they seem to be able to produce at this point in the show department. Even 'Kenobi' seems to take place in no small part on Tatooine. It seems like Obi-Wan will also leave the planet but Star Wars is much more than this desert rock in the middle of nowhere.

Luke himself made it perfectly clear how much Tatooine sucked back in ROTJ. And Han had the good fortune to stay blind for his entire visit...

[IlyaP]

Posit:

Star Wars is stuck in what I call a "Narrative Black Hole". The sequel trilogy's general...not-greatness (hey, I'm trying to be kind here, okay?) has made it difficult for Lucasfilm to move to a period beyond that era - as anything that followed it would generally have to make at least a cursory acknowledgment of that time period, so Lucasfilm are sticking to the known and reliable period of post-OT and pre-ST.

Which you can only mine so much for stories before it all starts feeling small and insignificant and uninteresting. Which is why we're now also, I think, getting the High Republic novels. But even the current crop of novels are struggling with this sensation of narrative dead-endedness. (This is a whole other problem that I can go on about at detail, for any fellow SW book readers, who feel like *really* nerding out.)*

 

* please help me. I need a life.

[sifth]

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, there you don't really need him.

But in a show in the era of the Galactic I really would like to see Vader and Palpatine and as many lackeys of the Emperor as possible - the hangers-on at the court, various Moffs and Grand Moffs, Tarkin, Mas Amedda, Sly Moore, Sate Pestage, etc.

And after they took Thrawn from the old EU and also have the ISB included in the 'new canon' the logical next step would be to have Armand and, especially, Ysanne Isard. The latter could be a really eerie villain with her mismatched eyes and her Iceheart demeanor.

I mean, Star Wars does have lots of interesting stories about espionage and infiltration, and very interesting plots in a Rebellion show could revolve around the ISB trying to infiltrate the Rebellion, possibly using brainwashed sleeper agents or deep moles while the Rebellion also places or recruits sympathizers and agents in the Imperial hierarchy.

That could be much better than this western style backwater stuff which is literally the only thing they seem to be able to produce at this point in the show department. Even 'Kenobi' seems to take place in no small part on Tatooine. It seems like Obi-Wan will also leave the planet but Star Wars is much more than this desert rock in the middle of nowhere.

Luke himself made it perfectly clear how much Tatooine sucked back in ROTJ. And Han had the good fortune to stay blind for his entire visit...

You know he's mostly showing up in that Ahsoka show, so she can finally learn that he was redeemed.

[Rhom]

9 hours ago, IlyaP said:

Posit:

Star Wars is stuck in what I call a "Narrative Black Hole". The sequel trilogy's general...not-greatness (hey, I'm trying to be kind here, okay?) has made it difficult for Lucasfilm to move to a period beyond that era - as anything that followed it would generally have to make at least a cursory acknowledgment of that time period, so Lucasfilm are sticking to the known and reliable period of post-OT and pre-ST.

Which you can only mine so much for stories before it all starts feeling small and insignificant and uninteresting. Which is why we're now also, I think, getting the High Republic novels. But even the current crop of novels are struggling with this sensation of narrative dead-endedness. (This is a whole other problem that I can go on about at detail, for any fellow SW book readers, who feel like *really* nerding out.)*

 

* please help me. I need a life.

Butttt… is the post ST any different than doing something post OT?

Theres one “trained” force user that we know of in the galaxy.  The Emperor has just been defeated.  The Republic is in its early days after the fall of the fascist government.

The only difference in the setting is that there is a lack of likable known protagonists to continue the story with.  The set up is the same as the early days of the old EU; but no one really likes the current characters.

[Jaxom 1974]

28 minutes ago, Rhom said:

Butttt… is the post ST any different than doing something post OT?

 

Not sure I understand.  

Possibly the most egregious sin of the sequels was the amount of time that it took to make them... but then having to add in the original core three. If the sequels had been within 10 years, that might have worked better.  If they'd been set 60 years later and Like was merely a legend, that might have been better.  Of course, if the attempts to create a new core three had created a better dynamic, that might have been better.  (I mostly like Rey, but not the story they have her,  I like Finn, but not what they did with him,  Poe was terrible mistake all around and generally unlikable.)  If they'd tried to make a plausible story, not straight rip offs room the get to, that might have been better.  

That the Disney+ shows are striving to fill the post OT gap is helpful... that these shows are mining from not only the cartoons from the interim, but surreptitiously from the de-canonized Legends material helps.

But I've not had much coffee yet...

[Calibandar]

16 hours ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Cassian Andor...who needed his own show as much as Boba Fett did...

I mean, what are they thinking? Putting a focus on such a dull character? I mean, I actually really like Rogue One, despite Cassian.

Now, if this show is more focused on Mon Motha attempting to build the Rebellion coalition, that could be interesting. Cassian could even be a character, but a focus?  

I am concerned about this Andor show. With Boba Fett I could see the appeal and I like that they tied Mandalorian in. Mandalorian 3 is exciting to look forward. Kenobi yes, excellent. Andor...I really hope its good but that was such a dull character in Rogue One, why on Earth even use the character again let alone do a show on it. It makes me wonder what else will this all be about since this is actually 12 episodes. Mon Mothma.... not exactly an exciting character either.

[Lord Varys]

12 hours ago, IlyaP said:

Posit:

Star Wars is stuck in what I call a "Narrative Black Hole". The sequel trilogy's general...not-greatness (hey, I'm trying to be kind here, okay?) has made it difficult for Lucasfilm to move to a period beyond that era - as anything that followed it would generally have to make at least a cursory acknowledgment of that time period, so Lucasfilm are sticking to the known and reliable period of post-OT and pre-ST.

No idea anyone wants a continuation of the ST, but the old EU showed very well how you can continue a story that seemed to be concluded at the end of ROTJ.

That said - basically we are back to the ending of ROTJ with TROS. The Emperor is defeated, the Jedi are down to one person, and now we could see a rebuilding of the Jedi Order and the Republic. Something that should have either be the theme of the ST or at least an established fact at the beginning of the ST. Destroying both during the course of the ST would be pointless, especially if done by the Sith/Empire 2.0 since we already got that story in OT & PT.

New shows and stuff about/with the OT people would easily be possible if they either recast the roles or go with the CGI fountain of youth they did with Luke in the shows so far - and while Mark Hamill still plays and voices the guy behind the scenes there is nothing wrong with that.

12 hours ago, IlyaP said:

Which you can only mine so much for stories before it all starts feeling small and insignificant and uninteresting. Which is why we're now also, I think, getting the High Republic novels. But even the current crop of novels are struggling with this sensation of narrative dead-endedness. (This is a whole other problem that I can go on about at detail, for any fellow SW book readers, who feel like *really* nerding out.)*

I've read only very few of the new stuff but know effectively the entire old EU. I'm under the impression that there is still little to no substance to the new novels.

2 hours ago, sifth said:

You know he's mostly showing up in that Ahsoka show, so she can finally learn that he was redeemed.

Well, okay, if she still cares it might be interesting.

49 minutes ago, Calibandar said:

Mon Mothma.... not exactly an exciting character either.

Mon Mothma was a pretty interesting character back in the old EU. She had a strong determination and was also behind pretty radical attacks on the Empire. Zahn kind of turned her into some kind of power-hungry harpy, but that is not the core of the character.

[Werthead]

12 hours ago, IlyaP said:

Posit:

Star Wars is stuck in what I call a "Narrative Black Hole". The sequel trilogy's general...not-greatness (hey, I'm trying to be kind here, okay?) has made it difficult for Lucasfilm to move to a period beyond that era - as anything that followed it would generally have to make at least a cursory acknowledgment of that time period, so Lucasfilm are sticking to the known and reliable period of post-OT and pre-ST.

Which you can only mine so much for stories before it all starts feeling small and insignificant and uninteresting. Which is why we're now also, I think, getting the High Republic novels. But even the current crop of novels are struggling with this sensation of narrative dead-endedness. (This is a whole other problem that I can go on about at detail, for any fellow SW book readers, who feel like *really* nerding out.)*

I think the problem is that Star Wars has an inherently limited premise. It's space wizards and space French Resistance fighting Space Nazis and moving too far away from that gets people very angry (although just repeating it gets people very angry as well, apparently).

Star Trek at least had a much broader original canon and premise, so you can do a comedy Star Trek animated show and it works, or a more serialised show or a more episodic one, or one about war or a movie about a peace conference. It all works (more or less). Star Wars hasn't been able to do that (it's potential animated comedy show was axed because of the fears over whether it was on-brand, and of course what happened to Solo), there's an inherent conservatism in the franchise that they haven't been able to overcome. Some of the EU novel writers did, but that kind of inventiveness has no place in the new Star Wars canon.

Personally I'd rest Star Wars in its entirety for 10 years and then come back with a Next Generation-style story set 100-odd years later and is about another war (in the stars, if you will) but isn't based yet again on plucky rebels again overcoming an evil empire armed with nothing but blasters, their wits and a hidden line of space samurai wizards with laser swords and unassailable plot armour.

[Jaxom 1974]

1 hour ago, Calibandar said:

I am concerned about this Andor show. With Boba Fett I could see the appeal and I like that they tied Mandalorian in. Mandalorian 3 is exciting to look forward. Kenobi yes, excellent. Andor...I really hope its good but that was such a dull character in Rogue One, why on Earth even use the character again let alone do a show on it. It makes me wonder what else will this all be about since this is actually 12 episodes. Mon Mothma.... not exactly an exciting character either.

If the show is about cobbling together the disparate rebellious groups that we see in Rogue One... that could be interesting. Using Andor and Mon Motha and others? That's fine. Give it done political stakes and weight...give us a couple interesting characters from the Empire, that helps.  But why call it Andor, when something impressive might work...?

[IlyaP]

7 minutes ago, Werthead said:

Personally I'd rest Star Wars in its entirety for 10 years and then come back with a Next Generation-style story set 100-odd years later and is about another war (in the stars, if you will) but isn't based yet again on plucky rebels again overcoming an evil empire armed with nothing but blasters, their wits and a hidden line of space samurai wizards with laser swords and unassailable plot armour.

Oh gods yes. I would love for this to happen. 

I don't need to know about what Obi-Wan did after RotS and before ANH. I don't *care* about Cassian Andor. I do NOT need a Lando mini-series. Why the hell are we getting one about Ahsoka Tahno? And Boba Fett now somehow being a Kiwi business man? Why? 

I keep finding myself having hot flashes to the Lindsay Ellis video essay about Pirates of the Caribbean, where she stated "...[A]nd everyone's just so tired, it's so bad, everyone just looks so sad". Between the unbearably mediocre movies and shows filling in gaps I never cared about to begin with and the novels being the MCU version of the SW universe with everyone knowing everyone else and Thrawn no longer being interesting and Tim Zahn's writing being reduced to being inter-galactic plot exposition for...something (the frelling Grysk? They're basically discount Yuuzhan Vong knock-offs), it all just feels so exhausted and lacking in stylistic diversity and all the writing feels same-y and just used to tell bland and isolated stories while creating MCU-like connective tissue to other novels/shows/games. 

It's just...tiring.

[IlyaP]

28 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

No idea anyone wants a continuation of the ST, but the old EU showed very well how you can continue a story that seemed to be concluded at the end of ROTJ.

That said - basically we are back to the ending of ROTJ with TROS. The Emperor is defeated, the Jedi are down to one person, and now we could see a rebuilding of the Jedi Order and the Republic. Something that should have either be the theme of the ST or at least an established fact at the beginning of the ST. Destroying both during the course of the ST would be pointless, especially if done by the Sith/Empire 2.0 since we already got that story in OT & PT.

I'd take an animated Rebels sequel. I loved that show. It had so much heart. It was the purest, most Star Warsiest thing since Return of the Jedi.