Star Wars: Entering an uncivilized era

[Myrddin]

They don't need huge French Resistance vs Nazi Empire right out the gate for another trilogy (or whatever the next saga will be). If they use space western and gangsters with a Kurosawa wandering jedi (or untrained ronin) as a foundation, they'll have a good start to build up to a "star war". 

It really doesn't need to be intergalactic. Except for the Clone Wars series, none of the Star Wars trilogies felt intergalactic in scope. (No, throwing in a crazy amount of ships on both sides of the tRoS doesn't count, not when the First Order and Resistance both felt small scale) 

 

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

I think the problem is that Star Wars has an inherently limited premise. It's space wizards and space French Resistance fighting Space Nazis and moving too far away from that gets people very angry (although just repeating it gets people very angry as well, apparently).

Well, it was that ... and a decadent Republic guarded by arrogant and lazy space wizards.

And the way to continue it could very well have been how the heroes of the OT rebuild and defended a working Republic against threats from the inside and the outside, assisted by modest and competent space wizards.

Just a suggestion.

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

Some of the EU novel writers did, but that kind of inventiveness has no place in the new Star Wars canon.

Prior to the Disney stuff Star Wars was basically the EU, two movie trilogies, one pretty successful animated show and a bunch of old cartoons.

Disney certainly has the money and the ability to broaden what Star Wars is and can be - I mean, Lucas himself constantly broadened the scope of the stories told in TCW.

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

Personally I'd rest Star Wars in its entirety for 10 years and then come back with a Next Generation-style story set 100-odd years later and is about another war (in the stars, if you will) but isn't based yet again on plucky rebels again overcoming an evil empire armed with nothing but blasters, their wits and a hidden line of space samurai wizards with laser swords and unassailable plot armour.

They did that with Legacy in the old EU ... and that worked pretty well. Yet part of the appeal there was that there were still Skywalker and Solo descendants in that era - not to mention long-lived survivors from the older eras. Thanks to the ST something like that is completely impossible now - or at least impossible unless there is a big retcon.

But a future era in Star Wars playing around with established stuff would always feel kind of weird. What they could do is to explore the past more, especially the various Sith Wars or other devastating conflicts in the past.

1 hour ago, IlyaP said:

I'd take an animated Rebels sequel. I loved that show. It had so much heart. It was the purest, most Star Warsiest thing since Return of the Jedi.

Rebels definitely ended too early and, in my opinion, in too weird a way. Having Ezra stranded someplace else where his story could be continued isn't bad, but it seemed they actually wanted to take the story closer to ANH.

The story was also kind of too low key for my taste, especially in the first season. As I said, a show about the Rebellion could be pretty complex and gritty and grown-up if they gave us agents and counter-agents and espionage.

So far one of the biggest problems I have with the depiction of the Empire in the new Star Wars materials is that there seem to be no convinced/fanatical Imperials outside the group of the complete bad guys - and we only see the Empire occupying obscure planets in the Outer Rim rather than depictions of Imperial planets in the actual Empire.

The reason why I loathe Han's background in Solo is that Corellia was no polluted backwater planet in the old EU but one of the most prestigious Core Worlds - a place where people were proud of themselves and, at least in part, the Empire.

At this point Disney's Star Wars galaxy is an empty place full of barely populated Western-style backwater planets most of which are invaded or attacked by evil guys who came from a place very far away nobody has ever seen.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

14 hours ago, IlyaP said:

Posit:

Star Wars is stuck in what I call a "Narrative Black Hole". The sequel trilogy's general...not-greatness (hey, I'm trying to be kind here, okay?) has made it difficult for Lucasfilm to move to a period beyond that era - as anything that followed it would generally have to make at least a cursory acknowledgment of that time period, so Lucasfilm are sticking to the known and reliable period of post-OT and pre-ST.

Pretty much. except its pre and post OT. 

Could any of you imagine 10 years ago that Hayden was coming back?

1 hour ago, Werthead said:

I think the problem is that Star Wars has an inherently limited premise. It's space wizards and space French Resistance fighting Space Nazis and moving too far away from that gets people very angry (although just repeating it gets people very angry as well, apparently).

Not limited; "exhausted". After 4 decades, 12 feature films, several animated and live action series' an billions in merchandise, creatively there isn't much left; not that it wasn't there to begin with.

Or maybe the people at Disney just aren't creative enough or gutsy enough to to do something inspired with SW. There's 30,000 years of republic history they could explore, from the foundation of the republic to the emergence of the Sith, etc. That would be cool. Still, given what I've seen lately, I don't have any confidence these clowns could pull it off. Call it the WW84ification of franchise IP's. Watch BoBF and tell me I'm wrong.  

15 hours ago, sifth said:

I wonder if Darth Vader will appear in that show. You know Disney wont be able to resist, lol

This franchise ain't going to milk itself.  

[IlyaP]

25 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Pretty much. except its pre and post OT. 

Fair. 

I'm just so tired of it all. Like Wert, I think a ten year "quiet period" would be nice.

[Calibandar]

4 hours ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

If the show is about cobbling together the disparate rebellious groups that we see in Rogue One... that could be interesting. Using Andor and Mon Motha and others? That's fine. Give it done political stakes and weight...give us a couple interesting characters from the Empire, that helps.  But why call it Andor, when something impressive might work...?

Found this, which says a little about what the show is about. Not exciting but I will give it a shot anyway.

 

https://www.indiewire.com/2022/05/andor-disney-plus-series-diego-luna-star-wars-canon-upside-down-1234727541/

[mormont]

4 hours ago, Werthead said:

I think the problem is that Star Wars has an inherently limited premise. It's space wizards and space French Resistance fighting Space Nazis and moving too far away from that gets people very angry (although just repeating it gets people very angry as well, apparently).

Star Trek at least had a much broader original canon and premise, so you can do a comedy Star Trek animated show and it works, or a more serialised show or a more episodic one, or one about war or a movie about a peace conference. It all works (more or less). Star Wars hasn't been able to do that (it's potential animated comedy show was axed because of the fears over whether it was on-brand, and of course what happened to Solo), there's an inherent conservatism in the franchise that they haven't been able to overcome. Some of the EU novel writers did, but that kind of inventiveness has no place in the new Star Wars canon.

Personally I'd rest Star Wars in its entirety for 10 years and then come back with a Next Generation-style story set 100-odd years later and is about another war (in the stars, if you will) but isn't based yet again on plucky rebels again overcoming an evil empire armed with nothing but blasters, their wits and a hidden line of space samurai wizards with laser swords and unassailable plot armour.

While I agree with much of the above, the three most recent live action Trek properties are: two prequels and a nostalgia-fest featuring probably the franchise's biggest star.

[Rhom]

12 minutes ago, Calibandar said:

Found this, which says a little about what the show is about. Not exciting but I will give it a shot anyway.

 

https://www.indiewire.com/2022/05/andor-disney-plus-series-diego-luna-star-wars-canon-upside-down-1234727541/

"“The Last Jedi” was only the beginning of subverting fan expectations."

Ummmm... given the scope of our discussions on this board, that does not bode well...  

 

[Jaxom 1974]

26 minutes ago, Calibandar said:

Found this, which says a little about what the show is about. Not exciting but I will give it a shot anyway.

 

https://www.indiewire.com/2022/05/andor-disney-plus-series-diego-luna-star-wars-canon-upside-down-1234727541/

That article describes a basic story that sounds suspiciously similar to the initial Rebels premise...but, you know, without the Jedi...

I'll check it out, but...  

[Slurktan]

5 hours ago, Werthead said:

Star Trek at least had a much broader original canon and premise, so you can do a comedy Star Trek animated show and it works, or a more serialised show or a more episodic one, or one about war or a movie about a peace conference. It all works (more or less). Star Wars hasn't been able to do that (it's potential animated comedy show was axed because of the fears over whether it was on-brand, and of course what happened to Solo), there's an inherent conservatism in the franchise that they haven't been able to overcome. Some of the EU novel writers did, but that kind of inventiveness has no place in the new Star Wars canon.

That's just Disney bullshit. They neutered their own plan to branch out because of the TLJ/Solo wombocombo. There's no reason you can't do a comedy series in star wars. There's particularlarily no reason you couldn't do a horror show. Or romance or whatever.

Disney made mandalorian saw thar fans liked it and so are copying the western motif over and over. They will do the same if somebody ever convinces them to do something slightly different and people like it and then copy that over and over in their quest for bland mediocrity.

The problems with Star Wars is not the IP. It is Disney.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

22 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

That's just Disney bullshit. They neutered their own plan to branch out because of the TLJ/Solo wombocombo. There's no reason you can't do a comedy series in star wars. There's particularlarily no reason you couldn't do a horror show. Or romance or whatever.

Disney made mandalorian saw thar fans liked it and so are copying the western motif over and over. They will do the same if somebody ever convinces them to do something slightly different and people like it and then copy that over and over in their quest for bland mediocrity.

The problems with Star Wars is not the IP. It is Disney.

Ix'ne on the LJ/Solo'Te ombocombo'we. Some folks 'round here get excited when you put the two together. 

1 hour ago, Rhom said:

"“The Last Jedi” was only the beginning of subverting fan expectations."

Ummmm... given the scope of our discussions on this board, that does not bode well...  

Holy shit. I guess the TLJ rehabilitation tour has officially begin. 

[Werthead]

1 hour ago, mormont said:

While I agree with much of the above, the three most recent live action Trek properties are: two prequels and a nostalgia-fest featuring probably the franchise's biggest star.

One of those prequels was lambasted for being a poor prequel so pivoted very hard to a very distant future sequel series which is mixing in posthuman mega-tech (more like The Culture) with traditional Star Trek stuff and that change was very well received.

The other prequel only exists because fans angrily demanded it based almost solely on the charisma of two actors, and that's paid off well.

So yeah, Star Trek can also fall prey to fanservice and creator conservatism, but it's also given us the very smart and clever Lower Decks.

32 minutes ago, Slurktan said:

The problems with Star Wars is not the IP. It is Disney.

That's a reasonable alternate way of looking at it. Disney sometimes comes up with new ideas, but it's not really doing it for Star Wars.

6 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Ix'ne on the LJ/Solo'Te ombocombo'we. Some folks 'round here get excited when you put the two together. 

Holy shit. I guess the TLJ rehabilitation tour has officially begin. 

In the wider world, The Last Jedi still had excellent reviews and as many people who enjoyed what it was doing as who hated on it (and probably as many as both who liked bits of it and kind of hated other bits of it). Even on this board (where a slightly inexplicable and unrepresentative dislike of The Mandalorian holds sway) there's plenty of mixed opinions on it.

Attack of the Clones is universally reviled and most people seem to think Solo is unnecessary, I think it's fair to say, but there isn't really such a consensus for The Last Jedi, other than "it's divisive."

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

3 minutes ago, Werthead said:

In the wider world, The Last Jedi still had excellent reviews and as many people who enjoyed what it was doing as who hated on it (and probably as many as both who liked bits of it and kind of hated other bits of it). Even on this board (where a slightly inexplicable and unrepresentative dislike of The Mandalorian holds sway) there's plenty of mixed opinions on it.

"Had excellent reviews" from critics. Many of whom are capable of getting just as caught up in franchise hype as anyone else, whether they'd admit it or not. I'd be interested to see what the long term critical consensus is.

Critics also seem to love Rian Johnson for some reason. All fine and good. He's a pretty good film maker.  But I saw Knives out and the critical consensus around that film still baffles me. I thought it was OK but it didn't knock my socks off.  

"Divisive" is a fair way to describe the TLJ fan reaction.

[Ran]

I really feel like the Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic show that the Empire/space nazis thing isn't really necessary. "Space wizards", maybe... but then some of the most popular EU stories didn't feature Jedi at all.

A more episodic show about some a smuggling crew ala Firefly would be something I'd be potentially interested, just premise wise.

 

[Lord Varys]

23 minutes ago, Ran said:

A more episodic show about some a smuggling crew ala Firefly would be something I'd be potentially interested, just premise wise.

They kinda have that with both 'Rebels' (the crew of the Ghost are technically smugglers) and also now with 'The Bad Batch'.

[Derfel Cadarn]

I’m curious how Empire was received at the time, and how it wouldnhave been regarded had there been an internet.

I suspect it would have been treated much like TLJ (god knows where Ingot LotJ from before), hated by fans of the original because it made Obi-Wan out to be a liar; the big jedi Yoda is a 900 year old Kermit who does fuck all; ends unresolved; unrealistic battle stiff on Hoth (why didnt the Empire send air cover? Why didnt their TIE’s shoot down the fleeing rebels? Why didnt the Rebels send their x-wings out to take down the AT-AT’s? Vader is Luke’s father?? What a retcon of what Obi-Wan told Luke!!!)

[Myrddin]

2 hours ago, Slurktan said:

The problems with Star Wars is not the IP. It is Disney.

Seeing that Marvel does everything you mention, it's not Disney. It's Lucasfilm.

No, I'm not a Kennedy basher. She's been a producer with Spielberg and Lucas for decades and is a strong choice to run the company. She's just a very different CEO than Feige. 

But they're coming from different places. Marvel has 50+ years of stories to draw inspiration from. Old EU aside (which I never cared much for), Lucasfilm is making it up as they go along. Both have advantages. In Star Wars' case, it's a matter of deciding what's "in brand" and what's not. She's very protective of that brand (not a bad thing, tbh). 

But I agree: They should be able to have stories in as many types of tone within Star Wars as Marvel or Star Trek do. 

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

45 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

I’m curious how Empire was received at the time, and how it wouldnhave been regarded had there been an internet.

I suspect it would have been treated much like TLJ (god knows where Ingot LotJ from before), hated by fans of the original because it made Obi-Wan out to be a liar; the big jedi Yoda is a 900 year old Kermit who does fuck all; ends unresolved; unrealistic battle stiff on Hoth (why didnt the Empire send air cover? Why didnt their TIE’s shoot down the fleeing rebels? Why didnt the Rebels send their x-wings out to take down the AT-AT’s? Vader is Luke’s father?? What a retcon of what Obi-Wan told Luke!!!)

Empire was hailed at the time. The big reveal blew people away.

If there was an internet? Who knows? I think the comparisons to TLJ are a red herring. It could have been that or it could have been Avengers: Infinity War. 

[sifth]

18 minutes ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Empire was hailed at the time. The big reveal blew people away.

If there was an internet? Who knows? I think the comparisons to TLJ are a red herring. It could have been that or it could have been Avengers: Infinity War. 

Yea, Infinity Wars is the best comparison to Empire I can think of in recent memory.

TLJ is basically red herring the movie.

[Leofric]

I agree that they need to step away from the period surrounding the rise and fall of Palpatine's Empire.   Anything that happens in the Andor story doesn't matter, we know how and when he died, we know the Empire was destroyed and the rebellion kinda won, only to have it's new government wiped out by the First Order who were in turn destroyed by a ragtag collection of fighters and old rebels.   So there is no Empire, no First Order, and little or no Republic or New Republic government left at the end of the Rise of Skywalker.

I think they should tell stories of the Old Republic or they should look to a future where there is no united galaxy, but one with different cultures, kingdoms, collectives or other entities that rose from the ashes and are fighting with each other, with a scattered group of jedi-type knights following the teachings of Rey Palpatine-Sywalker picking sides.  

 

 

[Werthead]

14 hours ago, Ran said:

I really feel like the Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic show that the Empire/space nazis thing isn't really necessary. "Space wizards", maybe... but then some of the most popular EU stories didn't feature Jedi at all.

A more episodic show about some a smuggling crew ala Firefly would be something I'd be potentially interested, just premise wise.

Knights of the Old Republic 1 was great but very Force Awakens in how it mirrored the original Star Wars structure (down to the space station superweapon, half-connected side-adventure on an opening planet and bits in the middle of the characters running around on different planets). It wasn't quite Rebels vs. Empire, but it was Good Guys vs. Bad Guys, with the Republic and Jedi on the back foot and the Sith Empire on the advance, not to mention the Shocking Twist. I think KotOR got away with things in 2003 that it would struggle to in 2022, when people are more sensitive to stories that echo or mirror earlier ones.

Knights of the Old Republic 2 definitely went down the "revisionist Star Wars" approach with the shades of grey, the "neutral side" of the Force and much more complex characters.

13 hours ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

I’m curious how Empire was received at the time, and how it wouldnhave been regarded had there been an internet.

I have SF magazines from the 1980s and it was a fairly mixed reception. Some called it the weakest of the trilogy and some the best, and a lot of people hated it for its downer tone, ambiguous ending and so on. There was also anger at the time it came out because they felt that Han had "stolen" Leia from Luke. Critical reviews were also over the place.

I think it was the early 1990s VHS re-release of the trilogy, which was a very big deal at the time, and then the 1977 Special Edition re-releases which solidified Empire's status as the best of the OT. Before that the OG 1977 film was clearly regarded as better.