Star Wars: Entering an uncivilized era

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, KalVsWade said:

Every trooper gets training with hitting things with a stick. Even if he's a janitor as his MOS, he still went through basic. 

The idea that you can't press a button and wave a stick around and that's a nitpick is pretty ridiculous.

Isn't he actually pretty good with the thing, though? In the fight against other troopers? I might be misremembering. I haven't watched those movies all that often...

1 hour ago, KalVsWade said:

The Jedi were absolutely a shitty organization. Hidebound, tradition-driven, reactionary, conservative, willing to sacrifice people at a moment's notice to get even the smallest personal advantage and deeply unconnected with caring.

That is your interpretation. The Jedi didn't have the authority to stop systems from leaving the Republic and following Dooku and Palpatine into a civil war. They also didn't have the authority to tell the Senate who to elect Chancellor, etc.

1 hour ago, KalVsWade said:

Luke won and saved the galaxy because he did precisely what Yoda and Obi-Wan told him not to do. He refused to kill Vader, he refused to give up hope, he refused to give up his friends and family.

While that is correct, this only shows that Luke is the best of the Jedi, not a Jedi who sucks. And Luke is also not pissed at the shades of Yoda and Obi-Wan at the end of ROTJ when they realize that he made the right call.

1 hour ago, KalVsWade said:

That's not a silly fannish interpretation. That's literally what happened in the movies. We see both Luke succeeding because he ignores the precepts of his Jedi teaching and we see the entire Republic fall because they adhere entirely to the Jedi teachings.

The Republic doesn't adhere to the Jedi teachings. It fails because their elected politicians vote a dictator into power. And they like that. Galactic Senate is basically the Republican Party and its electorate these days. They are fine with the idea of a caesar taking power and ruling for life.

1 hour ago, KalVsWade said:

So why wouldn't he reach out? Why the map? Why the isolation? None of that makes sense.

Well, I cannot really fix that movie. But they could have gone with him actually being stranded there, lacking a way to get out.

1 hour ago, KalVsWade said:

To me, Luke trying to go the Jedi way and it failing him in almost the same kind of way it failed Anakin did, actually, fit his character.

That wouldn't fit with his character but turn him into a complete failure. Not only would he repeat all the mistakes of his old man and the old Jedi ... but he would also have learned no lesson from his success in ROTJ.

I mean, something like that certainly could work to a point, but it would still be lazy writing, basically telling the same story yet again. And that would be the third time, basically, since there are also strong parallels between Anakin's and Luke's stories in the PT & OT.

1 hour ago, KalVsWade said:

If Rey had been Luke's daughter then he completely abandoned his daughter and no one knows why. If he's her uncle that's only slightly better, except then you have either Han being a douchebag, Leia being a deadbeat mom, or there being a third Skywalker child? Come on. This is bullshit telenovela garbage. 

Still better than her being Palpatine's granddaughter. That said ... I'd not suggest something like that if there weren't glaring hints in TFA that there are connections between Rey and the Skywalker-Solo gang.

1 hour ago, KalVsWade said:

And yes, it wouldn't have been a great plot to mindwipe her for odd reasons, and it still wouldn't explain the map, or what happened with Kylo Ren, or why he's on Acht-To, or any of that. You can come up with a bunch of possible things but the issue is that ALL of them aren't very good. TLJ did something that arguably wasn't great (I personally like it, Ran doesn't) but it was at least a different arc for the characters and did offer explanations. 

I'm not sure that TLJ explains anything in this regard. Why is there a map? Why did Luke go to that place? Who was the Snoke dude?

I mean, I'm sure Abrams had at least an inclination where he wanted to go with the ST. He must have had at least an idea why Luke disappeared, who Rey's parents were, etc.

1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

Two reasons: first, he didn't make it as some kind of guerrilla film project where he dropped a finished Star Wars films they had to put out. They'll have known what he meant to do before he started filming, and it's not as if they haven't booted directors during filming or made big changes to a movie after primary filming finished because they didn't like where it ended. So they were obviously fine with what he was doing until it came out and the backlash hit.
Second: regardless of what you think about how Johnson moved on the plots TFA set up, or where it left everything in its own right, there clearly were ways to take it that didn't involve just trying to recant everything so hard that it ended up not only undoing all the progress of TLJ, but a lot of its own plot points as well. They just gave it to a director who it turns out clearly didn't have the imagination for that. Like killing Snoke in particular was an odd choice that left them some difficulty, but Palpatine returning as the solution? There were far better solutions in play for Abrams to use, some of them which the film even hints towards (a broken and wild Kylo battling with Hux for control of the new order had potential for example, but was squandered in the stupidest possible way). None of that mess is Rhian Johnson's fault, even if you hate TLJ on its own merits.   

Killing Snoke really destroyed the whole 'villain part' of the story. Hux and Fetish Guy were jokes as villains from the start ... and the latter worked even less in that role after his weirdo relationship with Rey. Neither of them could shoulder the burden of being the big bad of a Star Wars movie.

Even the leaked Trevorrow script had some weirdo super villain providing Fetish Guy with the juice/means to become a really big bad.

That said - bringing back Palpatine was complete nonsense, of course.

[Jaxom 1974]

3 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

 

I mean, I'm sure Abrams had at least an inclination where he wanted to go with the ST. He must have had at least an idea why Luke disappeared, who Rey's parents were, etc.

 

Is there any indication any of that was ever even written down somewhere?  I mean, Abrams knew when making TFA that he wasn't going to be directing the second or third films...so his failure to leave any kind of road map seems important.  Or at least his desire to make such an unresolved movie should have meant there was some sort of plan.  Except there never was a plan, was there?

[Kalbear]

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Isn't he actually pretty good with the thing, though? In the fight against other troopers? I might be misremembering. I haven't watched those movies all that often...

He gets completely fucked up. 

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That is your interpretation. The Jedi didn't have the authority to stop systems from leaving the Republic and following Dooku and Palpatine into a civil war. They also didn't have the authority to tell the Senate who to elect Chancellor, etc.

They refused to look for the Sith lord that they knew was out there for over 8 years. They barely mobilized against Dooku after he betrayed them. They hired a complete clone army. They had a whole lot of leeway into doing things and they continued to not do things. This is one of the things Anakin constantly rebels against in Clone Wars and in RotS - and they even managed to fuck up Ahsoka too. 

The idea that the Jedi as an organization is kind of trash is a major theme of the Republic story, the PT story, the Clone Wars story, etc. 

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

While that is correct, this only shows that Luke is the best of the Jedi, not a Jedi who sucks. And Luke is also not pissed at the shades of Yoda and Obi-Wan at the end of ROTJ when they realize that he made the right call. 

No, Luke is pretty cool that way. But him not being pissed at the time doesn't mean later when he tries to be a good Jedi and accidentally unleashes a demon that he wouldn't hold resentment. 

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

The Republic doesn't adhere to the Jedi teachings. It fails because their elected politicians vote a dictator into power. And they like that. Galactic Senate is basically the Republican Party and its electorate these days. They are fine with the idea of a caesar taking power and ruling for life. 

The Jedi meanwhile did what to stop the Sith? Or help Anakin's mom? Or help anyone in a way that would actually do anything useful? Most of what the Jedi did in the PT was tell Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan or Anakin to stop doing a good thing they were doing. 

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

That wouldn't fit with his character but turn him into a complete failure. Not only would he repeat all the mistakes of his old man and the old Jedi ... but he would also have learned no lesson from his success in ROTJ.

I mean, something like that certainly could work to a point, but it would still be lazy writing, basically telling the same story yet again. And that would be the third time, basically, since there are also strong parallels between Anakin's and Luke's stories in the PT & OT.

I mean....yes? That's sort of a very common universal story - the sins of the fathers. 

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I'm not sure that TLJ explains anything in this regard. Why is there a map? Why did Luke go to that place? Who was the Snoke dude?

Why is there a map: in case for some reason people really did need to find Luke again despite all his misgivings. 

Why did Luke go to Acht-To? It's an ancient Jedi temple that among other things allows Luke to cut himself off completely from the Force and hide. This is stated explicitly in the movie.

Who was Snoke? A failed clone of Palpatine. This was stated in the next movie. 

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

I mean, I'm sure Abrams had at least an inclination where he wanted to go with the ST. He must have had at least an idea why Luke disappeared, who Rey's parents were, etc.

Per his statements this is inaccurate. He was setting up plot hooks for other people to go. His only view was that Rey was someone important, but who was left deliberately vague to give people in the future more leeway. 

As @Ran said, the single biggest mistake of the ST was the deliberate lack of any cohesive planning for the movie trilogy. 

2 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Killing Snoke really destroyed the whole 'villain part' of the story. Hux and Fetish Guy were jokes as villains from the start ... and the latter worked even less in that role after his weirdo relationship with Rey. Neither of them could shoulder the burden of being the big bad of a Star Wars movie.

Even the leaked Trevorrow script had some weirdo super villain providing Fetish Guy with the juice/means to become a really big bad.

That said - bringing back Palpatine was complete nonsense, of course.

I really disagree. I think that making Ren an actual villain and not redeemable was both fairly cool - Ren is definitely the most interesting villain we've seen, and a far more modern take on evil than Darth Vader - a Sith that is absolutely filled with emotion and passion - and also an actual new take that we hadn't really seen before. Hux wasn't particularly interesting as a villain but was never intended to be that way, but Ren is far more intriguing than Snoke ever was. 

And yes, Ren seeking out more power is both a very Sith thing and makes him, well, stronger. 

Killing Snoke early also resulted in something fairly rare - an actual surprise. 

[RumHam]

1 hour ago, Deadlines? What Deadlines? said:

Treverrow left because Steven Spielberg looked at him with puppy dog eyes while Universal parked a dump truck full of money in his driveway to make some movie about dinosaurs. True story. I heard something similar happened with Taika Watiti and the Akira adaptation he was working on for Warner Brothers. 

Sluts. 

 

I thought he did Jurassic World before and that's what got him the Star Wars job? I know he didn't direct the second Jurassic World.

[IlyaP]

4 hours ago, Myrddin said:

I reckon you all want to see this:

ETA: I like that this looks broader than just "Andor" centric, even if he's the main character. I'm a huge fan of Luna, but the broader story is more interesting than his character (for now).

Explain to me again why this exists?

What story is it needing to tell that we don't already know?

[IlyaP]

4 hours ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

How do the various, disparate cells of Rebellion find their way to joining forces.  That could be a very good story.  That there appears to be some sort of POV coming from the side of the Empire also?  That's good too.

Didn't Rebels already answer that question?

[IlyaP]

1 hour ago, Ran said:

Johnson was initially going to write the story for the third film and hand it off to another director to film, as well as doing his own trilogy. That plan changed sometime in 2015 when filming began on TLJ. Trevarrow was indeed brought on... and then dropped, and I'm sure his much-buzzed-about The Book of Henry bombing had an effect (just as most assume the outcry at the final episode of Game of Thrones seems to have killed D&D's Star Wars trilogy).

Apparently a digitised (comic book?) version of Trevorrow's script leaked a while back. Would be curious to hear what your thoughts are on it - if you know what I'm talking about (I vaguely recall seeing a news post about it on Dark Horizons).

[Lord Varys]

29 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

Is there any indication any of that was ever even written down somewhere?  I mean, Abrams knew when making TFA that he wasn't going to be directing the second or third films...so his failure to leave any kind of road map seems important.  Or at least his desire to make such an unresolved movie should have meant there was some sort of plan.  Except there never was a plan, was there?

Well, okay, it is Abrams we are talking about here. The guy who thought Red Matter and a oilrig guy from the future blowing up the planet of the guy who was trying to save his people from a super nova was a great idea. My mistake.

But even Abrams should have had an idea who Rey could or would be if he were to continue the story. I mean, you do think about that kind of thing as a writer when you come up with those mysteries.

19 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

They refused to look for the Sith lord that they knew was out there for over 8 years. They barely mobilized against Dooku after he betrayed them. They hired a complete clone army. They had a whole lot of leeway into doing things and they continued to not do things. This is one of the things Anakin constantly rebels against in Clone Wars and in RotS - and they even managed to fuck up Ahsoka too. 

Well, they are dumber than they should be, but they really didn't have the power or authority to stop most of the stuff that happened.

I mean, let's imagine they realized that Palpatine was a Sith Lord somewhere between TPM and AOTC. What could they do about it? He was their elected boss at the time, so aside from Mace Windu-like treason they couldn't do anything. Being a Sith as such is certainly no crime in that world.

19 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

No, Luke is pretty cool that way. But him not being pissed at the time doesn't mean later when he tries to be a good Jedi and accidentally unleashes a demon that he wouldn't hold resentment. 

About the ancient Jedi he never even met? And about whose actions he seems to be either not care or be ignorant about in the OT? He never pestered Yoda or Obi-Wan about Darth Sidious, did he?

If Luke sucked as a teacher he would blame himself, not the teachings of the Jedi like a loser or coward who cannot take responsibility for the mistakes he himself made.

19 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

The Jedi meanwhile did what to stop the Sith? Or help Anakin's mom? Or help anyone in a way that would actually do anything useful? Most of what the Jedi did in the PT was tell Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan or Anakin to stop doing a good thing they were doing. 

Well, what did the Republic to help Anakin's mom? This isn't a perfect world and neither the Jedi nor the Republic are responsible for stuff that happens outside their jurisdiction. You could just as well ask me why I'm not fighting crime in Hawaii.

I mean, there are glaring mistakes like the Jedi deciding to participate in the Clone Wars at all ... but they cannot magically detect a Sith they cannot sense.

19 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

I mean....yes? That's sort of a very common universal story - the sins of the fathers. 

And one we didn't need for Luke Skywalker. Or any of the OT characters in the ST.

19 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

Why is there a map: in case for some reason people really did need to find Luke again despite all his misgivings. 

The map thing doesn't make sense in any case, since it should have been a map to a place where Luke intended to go, not a map to Luke Skywalker the man.

19 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

Why did Luke go to Acht-To? It's an ancient Jedi temple that among other things allows Luke to cut himself off completely from the Force and hide. This is stated explicitly in the movie.

Yes, yes, some weirdo explanation. If the Jedi are to die, then why the hell didn't Luke kill himself?

19 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

Who was Snoke? A failed clone of Palpatine. This was stated in the next movie. 

Sure, but it was a question the second movie could already answer, at least in part.

19 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

I really disagree. I think that making Ren an actual villain and not redeemable was both fairly cool - Ren is definitely the most interesting villain we've seen, and a far more modern take on evil than Darth Vader - a Sith that is absolutely filled with emotion and passion - and also an actual new take that we hadn't really seen before.

The guy isn't a Sith. He is just a Vader fanboy. I don't know what's interesting about the guy. Can you tell me why he wants to be evil? I don't think so, because the movie doesn't give us any reason why he would want to be like his evil granddad.

There is a lot of talk how the poor boy wants to be evil and we see him being conflicted about that ... but no hint as to why that is. If you do something like that, you are really doing something very complex. There must be a lot exposition and explanation for this to work. And there is pretty much nothing there.

I mean, apparently many people just go with 'He is Han and Leia's kid and Luke's nephew' and are content with that as emotional filler ... but that's not enough for me. If I have to buy that this is an actual person, then I want to know why he wants to be evil ... and most especially what he wants to accomplish with his evil powers.

As bad and nonsensical Anakin's turn to dark side - he does have a motivation. He wants to save his wife from certain death. Fetish Guy is given no motivation at all.

19 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

Hux wasn't particularly interesting as a villain but was never intended to be that way, but Ren is far more intriguing than Snoke ever was. 

Evil Hologram guy was fairly underdeveloped, too, of course. He was a clone of Palpatine even before he was a clone of Palpatine. That said - the guy could have been more complex if the second movie had developed him more rather than killing him off.

19 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

Killing Snoke early also resulted in something fairly rare - an actual surprise. 

Yes, it was a surprise. There were lots of surprises in that movie, and pretty much none of them were good. And neither was the surprise of the opening crawl of TROS.

5 minutes ago, IlyaP said:

Didn't Rebels already answer that question?

Pretty much, yeah. One can elaborate on that since the new show seems to be starting earlier than Rebels, but this isn't a theme that needed yet another show.

[Jaxom 1974]

1 hour ago, IlyaP said:

Didn't Rebels already answer that question?

I mean...maybe? I don't think it ever finished that story. I mean, Hera gets a shout out in Rogue One as an Easter egg...I think there is a little more to tell there ultimately...

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

2 hours ago, RumHam said:

I thought he did Jurassic World before and that's what got him the Star Wars job? I know he didn't direct the second Jurassic World.

writer/producer

[Lord Varys]

20 minutes ago, Jaxom 1974 said:

I mean...maybe? I don't think it ever finished that story. I mean, Hera gets a shout out in Rogue One as an Easter egg...I think there is a little more to tell there ultimately...

Rebels did focus to a considerable degree on the unification of various rebel movements and the like. It wasn't at the very heart of things - which is why I'm looking forward to Mon Mothma in that new show - but there is certainly potential for repetition there.

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

1 hour ago, IlyaP said:

Explain to me again why this exists?

What story is it needing to tell that we don't already know?

They could make a series about Cassian Andor's grandmother for all I care. Just make it good. 

[Corvinus85]

Rebels had various rebel cells come together a few times for larger operations, but most of the show focused on the Lothal system. Rogue One already had the Rebel Alliance fully established. I should hope Andor focuses on the senators and various veterans of the Clone Wars putting things together with the likes of Cassian Andor acting as versatile agents that travel the galaxy to unite groups and sabotage the Empire.

[Lord Varys]

9 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Rebels had various rebel cells come together a few times for larger operations, but most of the show focused on the Lothal system. Rogue One already had the Rebel Alliance fully established. I should hope Andor focuses on the senators and various veterans of the Clone Wars putting things together with the likes of Cassian Andor acting as versatile agents that travel the galaxy to unite groups and sabotage the Empire.

As I mentioned above already:

Spoiler

The first three episodes seem to focus on Andor's home planet and the Imperial occupation there ... which is kind of a repetition of the Lothal situation there. But they can and hopefully move beyond that.

I'd really like it if we saw Mon Mothma not just on Coruscant but also on her home planet, the Core World of Chandrila, which is actually a place I have wanted to see for a long time. Of course, I also want to see more of Alderaan, etc.

In general I really start to loathe the depiction of the Empire as an evil outside force which swoops in and occupies happy planets. That isn't the case. They moved beyond the Republic but essentially they just are the Republic, i.e. most Imperial planets are Republic and thus suffer, perhaps, from militarization, a police state, brutal attacks on the opposition, etc. but not from an evil invasion.

Disney Star Wars basically turned all worlds in the GFFA into Tatooine - which is indeed a backwater planet which the Empire only sort of occupied after its formation while the Republic left the Hutts alone. But literally 90% of the other planets are not like Tatooine.

[Kalbear]

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

But even Abrams should have had an idea who Rey could or would be if he were to continue the story. I mean, you do think about that kind of thing as a writer when you come up with those mysteries.

He's stated that he didn't. Ridley has stated that her background was changing while TRoS was being written:
https://www.indiewire.com/2020/09/daisy-ridley-rey-kenobi-jj-abrams-retconned-1234585188/

So yeah, you can hope that there were answers - but that ain't how Abrams works. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, they are dumber than they should be, but they really didn't have the power or authority to stop most of the stuff that happened.

I mean, let's imagine they realized that Palpatine was a Sith Lord somewhere between TPM and AOTC. What could they do about it? He was their elected boss at the time, so aside from Mace Windu-like treason they couldn't do anything. Being a Sith as such is certainly no crime in that world.

Being a Sith is, actually, a massive crime in the Republic. So is orchestrating a massive war, conspiracy to do multiple assassinations. The Jedi were regularly seen as judges of these things and had zero real oversight; there was no one wondering of Maul lives matter. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

About the ancient Jedi he never even met? And about whose actions he seems to be either not care or be ignorant about in the OT? He never pestered Yoda or Obi-Wan about Darth Sidious, did he?

If Luke sucked as a teacher he would blame himself, not the teachings of the Jedi like a loser or coward who cannot take responsibility for the mistakes he himself made.

I don't think that's entirely accurate, and it ain't like Obi-Wan or Yoda blamed themselves all that much either. But I'm talking about him releasing Ren, not Sidious. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, what did the Republic to help Anakin's mom? This isn't a perfect world and neither the Jedi nor the Republic are responsible for stuff that happens outside their jurisdiction. You could just as well ask me why I'm not fighting crime in Hawaii. 

If you go to Hawaii and purchase a kid off the street but don't deal with getting their mom, and that kid ends up killing all your friends? That's on you, man. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I mean, there are glaring mistakes like the Jedi deciding to participate in the Clone Wars at all ... but they cannot magically detect a Sith they cannot sense.

They can ACTUALLY GO LOOK FOR THAT SITH THOUGH

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The map thing doesn't make sense in any case, since it should have been a map to a place where Luke intended to go, not a map to Luke Skywalker the man.

Was apparently both.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yes, yes, some weirdo explanation. If the Jedi are to die, then why the hell didn't Luke kill himself?

He literally tells Rey that he came there to die. Plus, ya know, TFA forced him to not be dead. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

The guy isn't a Sith. He is just a Vader fanboy. I don't know what's interesting about the guy. Can you tell me why he wants to be evil? I don't think so, because the movie doesn't give us any reason why he would want to be like his evil granddad.

There is a lot of talk how the poor boy wants to be evil and we see him being conflicted about that ... but no hint as to why that is. If you do something like that, you are really doing something very complex. There must be a lot exposition and explanation for this to work. And there is pretty much nothing there.

I mean, apparently many people just go with 'He is Han and Leia's kid and Luke's nephew' and are content with that as emotional filler ... but that's not enough for me. If I have to buy that this is an actual person, then I want to know why he wants to be evil ... and most especially what he wants to accomplish with his evil powers.

As bad and nonsensical Anakin's turn to dark side - he does have a motivation. He wants to save his wife from certain death. Fetish Guy is given no motivation at all. 

Ah, okay. This is an actual misreading of the text. The problem with Kylo Ren is that he does, actually, desire to be evil. He wants power. He wants respect. He wants love and passion and glory. He wants his parents dead. He wants that burned to the ground at his disposal. 

Why does he want these things? Because that is what some people want. That's kind of the best thing about Ren; he doesn't have this horrible tragic backstory or some forcing function that turns him bad; he is simply born not a great guy. There is no corruption there. That's just what he wants. 

And that is a far more interesting story than you give it credit. Imagine you are his parents and your son is a monster like that - how do you deal? You did what you could, you tried, you gave him the best teachers and love and he turns into a spoiled, narcissistic monster. 

He is, basically, Palpatine. Palpatine doesn't have a backstory for why he turned bad. As far as we can tell he was fairly successful and grew up rich. But he went bad because he wanted it. 

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Evil Hologram guy was fairly underdeveloped, too, of course. He was a clone of Palpatine even before he was a clone of Palpatine. That said - the guy could have been more complex if the second movie had developed him more rather than killing him off.

Everyone's more interesting when they provide no answers and only weird-ass questions. Abrams has made a career of setting up shows with interesting questions and mysterious characters and giving them no payoff.

2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Yes, it was a surprise. There were lots of surprises in that movie, and pretty much none of them were good. And neither was the surprise of the opening crawl of TROS. 

Again, disagree. I think it was a pretty bold move to set up this guy as a major villain, have him actually explain his plot (which kinda made sense with the balance and whatnot) and then just wack him. It was surprising because it subverted expectations; not because (like TRoS) it just came out of fucking nowhere. It's a subversion to set up Ren as the fated son who will be redeemed and then make him actually more evil. It was a grand subversion to have Luke show up and save the day - only to not have him be there at all. 

 

[Corvinus85]

41 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

As I mentioned above already:

  Reveal hidden contents

The first three episodes seem to focus on Andor's home planet and the Imperial occupation there ... which is kind of a repetition of the Lothal situation there. But they can and hopefully move beyond that.

I'd really like it if we saw Mon Mothma not just on Coruscant but also on her home planet, the Core World of Chandrila, which is actually a place I have wanted to see for a long time. Of course, I also want to see more of Alderaan, etc.

In general I really start to loathe the depiction of the Empire as an evil outside force which swoops in and occupies happy planets. That isn't the case. They moved beyond the Republic but essentially they just are the Republic, i.e. most Imperial planets are Republic and thus suffer, perhaps, from militarization, a police state, brutal attacks on the opposition, etc. but not from an evil invasion.

Disney Star Wars basically turned all worlds in the GFFA into Tatooine - which is indeed a backwater planet which the Empire only sort of occupied after its formation while the Republic left the Hutts alone. But literally 90% of the other planets are not like Tatooine.

Forceful militarization of a planet can look like an invasion, since the Empire would have to bring in assets.

Also, many planets of the Republic didn't take an active role in the Clone Wars. There was even a league of neutral worlds led by Mandalore. So when the Empire says you belong to us now, and they say no, invasion & brutal occupation follows.

[Lord Varys]

34 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

He's stated that he didn't. Ridley has stated that her background was changing while TRoS was being written:
https://www.indiewire.com/2020/09/daisy-ridley-rey-kenobi-jj-abrams-retconned-1234585188/

Well, sure, at that point TLJ had burned her character already. They could either go with the 'nobody of importance, fuck you!' shtick of the last movie, or add another silly spin.

34 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

Being a Sith is, actually, a massive crime in the Republic. So is orchestrating a massive war, conspiracy to do multiple assassinations. The Jedi were regularly seen as judges of these things and had zero real oversight; there was no one wondering of Maul lives matter. 

Sure, the war thing is a crime ... but so what? Back before the Clone Wars all Palpatine did was orchestrating a minor crisis which got him elected Chancellor - a 'crime' for which the Supreme Court of the Republic did apparently not punish Nute Gunray for after four trials. So whatever the thing in TPM was, it certainly wasn't a crime that would have harmed Palpatine much had it come out after he was elected Supreme Chancellor.

This is a corrupt and rotten system. It is about as likely for Palpatine to be tried and sentenced as it is that the US Congress to make anti-gun laws tomorrow.

And the Jedi do as the Senate and the rulers of the Republic tell them. They only move against Maul because he threatens Padmé. If he didn't do that, if he was just a law-abiding citizen who happened to be a Sith then they could do nothing about him or his master.

You have to differentiate between 'being a Sith' and 'being guilty of a crime'. But even in ROTS Windu is technically obliged to arrest Palpatine. He cannot actually kill him, and his attempt to do that is what pushes Anakin over the edge because it is clearly wrong.

34 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

I don't think that's entirely accurate, and it ain't like Obi-Wan or Yoda blamed themselves all that much either. But I'm talking about him releasing Ren, not Sidious.

The reason why TLJ Luke thinks the Jedi sucked is because they failed to defeat Darth Sidious.

34 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

If you go to Hawaii and purchase a kid off the street but don't deal with getting their mom, and that kid ends up killing all your friends? That's on you, man.

If you want to join my order of warrior monks you cannot live with your mother in any case, so freeing her is not going to enable you to hang out with her.

I certainly think not freeing Shmi was shitty behavior, but it is quite clear that Ani would have to leave her even if she was no longer a slave.

34 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

They can ACTUALLY GO LOOK FOR THAT SITH THOUGH

They did that, apparently, and they didn't find him in time.

34 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

Ah, okay. This is an actual misreading of the text. The problem with Kylo Ren is that he does, actually, desire to be evil. He wants power. He wants respect. He wants love and passion and glory. He wants his parents dead. He wants that burned to the ground at his disposal. 

Why does he want these things? Because that is what some people want. That's kind of the best thing about Ren; he doesn't have this horrible tragic backstory or some forcing function that turns him bad; he is simply born not a great guy. There is no corruption there. That's just what he wants.

Well, that is just a shitty story for me. People do have motives, and people don't have motives like that without a reason.

34 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

He is, basically, Palpatine. Palpatine doesn't have a backstory for why he turned bad. As far as we can tell he was fairly successful and grew up rich. But he went bad because he wanted it. 

LOL, no, Palpatine is indeed a monster, but he has no childish scruples and he doesn't fetishize a silly mask. Palpatine is also not a complex character. He is evil from the start, and we know what he wants, even if he we don't know why he wants it.

We have no idea what exactly Fetish Guy wants to do with his power. He idolizes a crippled lackey, remember? Vader never ruled anything, he was Palpatine's lackey.

In any case, Leia and Han's son is a more important character in the context of this story than the Big Bad. We (or I) want to understand who that is, and why he wants to be evil. I mean, we also understand why Luke wants of that backwater desert planet, right?

34 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

Again, disagree. I think it was a pretty bold move to set up this guy as a major villain, have him actually explain his plot (which kinda made sense with the balance and whatnot) and then just wack him. It was surprising because it subverted expectations; not because (like TRoS) it just came out of fucking nowhere. It's a subversion to set up Ren as the fated son who will be redeemed and then make him actually more evil. It was a grand subversion to have Luke show up and save the day - only to not have him be there at all.

Oh, if we pretend for a moment that TLJ was the final movie then this could have worked. Then Luke and Rey could have cut Fetish Guy to pieces in the finale and we would have all been spared TROS. But it wasn't the final movie. The way it ended meant that this silly boy would have to carry an entire movie where there would be no space for a redemption arc since the guy was already given that chance in TLJ and he rejected it. You couldn't possibly play that hand again after that - it didn't even make much sense with Palpatine back in the game in TROS, but it would have made no sense if there had been just this guy as the Big Bad.

But to be sure - the boy should have remained a villain. There should be no redemption for the guy who murders Han Solo in cold blood and who tried to kill Leia, too. Such people are not deserving of redemption nor the lips of Daisy Ridley, nor anything, really. They should go back to their dark bedroom and continuing sniffing their silly fetish masks.

Would Luke have forgiven his father if Vader had done to Luke's family what Fetish Guy did to Han and Leia? I don't think so ... and one of the worst parts in TLJ is that Rey of all people - Rey, who has neither a connection to this person nor a single reason to assume that there is 'good in him' or any such crap - actually tries to redeem this piece of shit.

Luke wants to see the good in his father ... he wants to believe, he has to believe this man isn't truly gone. Vader may have killed Ben, Luke's foster father for five minutes, but he is also Luke's father. There is a connection there. But Rey's foster father for five minutes was killed by this guy who happened to be her foster father's biological son. And she has neither the reason to believe that he wouldn't do something like that agin not the slightest reason to believe he is her father or brother or an otherwise important person for her. Why would she care about him? It really makes no sense. It is like if I met a weirdo guy who tried to torture me ended up killing a guy I liked and then I were to think that this guy deserved a second chance despite the fact that the guy I liked actually was his father.

I'm really sorry, but there is nothing about this character I can take seriously. He is like a bad fan fiction character written by somebody who thinks Darth Vader was a cool villain because he wore an intimidating mask. That is a childishly simplistic understanding of the character. Vader isn't a cool villain, he is a failure as a villain, and he gets redeemed in the end. Nobody in their right mind would want to be like this guy if they wanted to be evil.

[Lord Varys]

52 minutes ago, Corvinus85 said:

Also, many planets of the Republic didn't take an active role in the Clone Wars. There was even a league of neutral worlds led by Mandalore. So when the Empire says you belong to us now, and they say no, invasion & brutal occupation follows.

That is something they could elaborate some time. Although that should happen earlier, i.e. shortly after the formation of the Empire, and not ten or fifteen years after the Clone Wars. Perhaps they are going to address this in future seasons of 'The Bad Batch'.

[Jaxom 1974]

Just saw a post that Kenobi was dropping "early"...then read closer and saw it was 9pm PST...do pretty much normal time...give or take...

[Corvinus85]

Watched the 1st episode. Called it regarding what gets Obi-Wan to leave Tatooine.