Star Wars: Entering an uncivilized era

[Raja]

41 minutes ago, sifth said:

I honestly never knew this whole Watto = a Jewish person, thing even existed, until you guys started posting it. I just viewed the guy as a greedy bug person, who was sort of a joke character. I honestly think certain people just randomly look for things to be offended over, if this is an issue.

Or maybe you just weren't paying enough attention when compared to all the people that did make the connection. Stating 'I didn't make that connection' and then extending that to 'well, since I didn't see it so people are just looking for things to be offended over' exhibts a lack of introspection & humilty on your part.

[Lord Varys]

1 hour ago, polishgenius said:

The rest of the points I can see what you're saying even if I don't agree, but this is the weirdest point about a film I've seen in a week in which someone told me yesterday that Wes Anderson is a naturalistic filmmaker.

Well, the point just is that even if Watto were definitely a Jew - he isn't that bad of a character, or is he?

I get it that it might not be particularly wise to allow oneself to be overly inspired by racist tropes when creating fantasy characters and creatures - but you don't (necessarily) create caricatures when you do that.

1 hour ago, mormont said:

OK, but in this case these creatures were (apparently deliberately) given physical characteristics that resemble the racist caricatures they're based on. Hook nose for Watto, thick lips for the Gungans, Orientalist dress for the Neimodians.

Okay, now we are talking about racist caricatures which are based on racist caricatures. A caricature is usually recognizable as a caricature or else it doesn't work as such. I certainly don't think you should take inspiration from racist caricatures - when you are creating human characters. With fantasy beings I'd not draw the line at the same point.

For Star Wars we would actually have to assume that the Neimoidians are supposed to be viewed as Japanese people and be a comment on how we, the audience, should view the Japanese (I guess as incompetent greedy evil schemers because those are racist stereotypes of the Japanese).

Does anybody actually view the Neimoidians as Japanese or Japanese-like? [Funnily enough, in the German version they have a French accent, and we still don't view them as French.]

And thick-lipped Gungans? They are amphibic creatures - the inspiration there is more likely in thick-lipped frogs than thick-lipped black people. If they had had dark skin I'd see where you are going there - but not with the Gungans.

There are remarkably different Gungans in the movie - Jar Jar is a dolt, but Boss Nass and Tarpals aren't.

1 hour ago, mormont said:

This idea that it can't be a racist caricature if a thing is standing in for another thing (small trunk for hook nose, alien for black/asian people) is astoundingly silly. Again, it just leaves me thinking you don't know what a caricature is, or have an astoundingly literal mind, or perhaps are being obtuse. It makes no real difference: the facts are what they are. The real world racism is right there on screen in the PT.

It would be there if the thing standing in for another thing would, in summary, also stand in for the group racism is directed against, i.e. if we were to agree that Watto/the Toydarians are all greedy Jews, that the Neimoidians are all, well, evil Japanese, I guess, and the Gungans all, what, stand-ins for all the indiginous people that were looked down upon?

Nobody can stop you from viewing it in that way, of course, but I doubt that this a very popular or intuitive or easy take on the movie. Could be wrong, of course, but I kind of doubt it. In a fantasy world which is very clearly not our world, people are not likely to make such connections. This is also not intended by the creators of such movies. They are not propaganda flicks, after all.

1 hour ago, mormont said:

(And yes, racism can be present even when a character helps the heroes. Look up Ebony White, for example. Again, I'm just getting an impression that you struggle to understand racism in media, rather than an argument as to why this stuff isn't racist.)

Of course, but the issue is not whether it can be present in a positive character but rather whether it makes sense to look for it in fantasy character in a not-Earth fantasy world.

I mean, Ebony White is clearly and distinctly a black person. In what sense are the Gungans black people? Or in what sense to they stand for black people?

[Deadlines? What Deadlines?]

2 hours ago, Rhom said:

I like all this.

My question would be this... what does it say about us that we see a greedy slave owner and automatically say "Oh, he's Jewish."?  Really?  Do the Toydarians read the Torah regularly?  Can we not just recognize "greed" as a universal trait without ascribing it to a certain faith or race?  Who is the racist here?

If anything I would have pegged Watto as some kind of Space-Italian or Space-Greek maybe. It never occurred to me that he was supposed to be a Space-Jew. 

Maybe my memory is weird; I thought the accusations of antisemitic tropes were directed at the Trade Federation types. There they might have a point. 

30 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Wait what? Gungans are meant to be black racial stereotypes now? Ok you completely lost me. I mean, it might be offensive to frogs or fishes.. or even rabbits.. but that’s as far as I’d take it.

Caribbean specifically. The anti cheese edits solves this problem BTW. 

[Kalbear]

The issues around the caricatures were a pretty big deal when phantom menace came out. This isn't coming out of thin air, and shockingly minorities who have experienced abuse do actually look for signs of abuse.

[Raja]

3 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

shockingly minorities who have experienced abuse do actually look for signs of abuse.

And see these things from miles away.

[Kalbear]

Lord varys is also shocked to find out people think the crows from Dumbo are somehow racist stereotypes, because they are not human they are crows!

How could one thing somehow represent another, different thing?

 

[sifth]

24 minutes ago, Raja said:

Or maybe you just weren't paying enough attention when compared to all the people that did make the connection. Stating 'I didn't make that connection' and then extending that to 'well, since I didn't see it so people are just looking for things to be offended over' exhibts a lack of introspection & humilty on your part.

Sorry, but the whole thing just screams of artificially generated hate to me. At the end of the day, I'm not going to tell you what to think though. If you want to think a flying bug man, who's greedy is some strange allegory for Jewish people, be my guest, I fully support your view. I however honestly just view the whole thing as rather silly.

edit: If we're going by his weird accent, I always thought it was an Italian accent, all be it a very bad one, though this is the prequels we're talking about, lol

[Lord Varys]

48 minutes ago, Raja said:

Or maybe you just weren't paying enough attention when compared to all the people that did make the connection. Stating 'I didn't make that connection' and then extending that to 'well, since I didn't see it so people are just looking for things to be offended over' exhibts a lack of introspection & humilty on your part.

While that is correct in principle, if we talk about actual caricatures we talk about things which are easily recognizable as such. Many antisemitic stereotypes are easily recognizable as such - in fact, I'd even argue that the secret society of the Sith and the underhanded conspiratorial way in which Palpatine takes over the galaxy acting in league with 'big money' is a much more pervasive antisemitic trope than Watto's 'hook-nose'. But folks usually don't point this out because neither Palpatine nor Dooku look or appear Jewish - they are just evil conspirators in a fantasy world. And as such they embody such people and the general concept of the evil conspiracy, and not the imaginary Elders of Zion and the International Jewish Conspiracy.

I think with something like Star Wars one cannot really take the view that taking cultural aspects and traits from real world group A to add it to fantasy being B is, in principle, a comment on or caricature of real world people.

I mean, you can also take the Empire design as a kind of counter example. The Imperials speak with a British accent in the movies, while the rebels talk with an American accent. The design of the uniforms is reminiscent of the Nazis. Do the movies want to make the comment that the British/Germans are evil because we can associate them with the Empire? Or, in-universe, do the uniform parallels imply the Galactic Empire is (as) racist (or speciest) as the Nazis were in the real world?

I don't think so.

29 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

Lord varys is also shocked to find out people think the crows from Dumbo are somehow racist stereotypes, because they are not human they are crows!

How could one thing somehow represent another, different thing?

I don't remember the crows from Dumbo, so I cannot really comment on that. But where exactly did I ever state that animal allegories cannot be racist? I'd actually say that such allegories are actually a good way to spread racism by naturalizing (imagined) differences, etc.

But Star Wars isn't an animal allegory nor in general a work which intentionally and actively propagates and spreads racism or fascism.

[Raja]

6 minutes ago, sifth said:

Sorry, but the whole thing just screams of artificially generated hate to me.

Because you weren't able to see it? Like I said, lack of humility & introspection or perhaps just education.

[sifth]

Just now, Raja said:

Because you weren't able to see it? Like I said, lack of humility & introspection or perhaps just education.

From my POV you're just over thinking because you need something to hate. What's next, is Jabba the Hutt some strange allegory for fat people being disgusting or is he just exactly what he was meant to be, a horrible slug man alien, who eats frogs, lol

[Lord Varys]

14 minutes ago, sifth said:

From my POV you're just over thinking because you need something to hate. What's next, is Jabba the Hutt some strange allegory for fat people being disgusting or is he just exactly what he was meant to be, a horrible slug man alien, who eats frogs, lol

Jabba and the Hutts in general are actually a pervasive in-universe stereotype. So far all the Hutts we met were slimy villains. There wasn't a singular heroic or good or nice or law-abiding Hutt in the movies so far (the EU changed that by making one of the greatest Supreme Chancellor Blotus the Hutt who served for a 275-year term).

With the Toydarians we do have greedy Watto in TPM and AOTC ... and honorable and heroic King Katuunko in TCW.

[sifth]

5 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Jabba and the Hutts in general are actually a pervasive in-universe stereotype. So far all the Hutts we met were slimy villains. There wasn't a singular heroic or good or nice or law-abiding Hutt in the movies so far (the EU changed that by making one of the greatest Supreme Chancellor Blotus the Hutt who served for a 275-year term.

With the Toydarians we do have greedy Watto in TPM and AOTC ... and honorable and heroic King Katuunko in TCW.

There's actually a Jedi Knight Hutt in one of the novels. I think it's Planet of Twlight.....................though he does eventually fall to the dark side, lol

[Lord Varys]

Just now, sifth said:

There's actually a Jedi Knight Hutt in one of the novels. I think it's Planet of Twlight.

Yeah, but that guy turns out to be a (misguided) villain, so I'd not count him as a positive example. But the fact that the novel actually introduced a Hutt Jedi helped to move away them from the slimy crime lord stereotype.

[Heartofice]

38 minutes ago, KalVsWade said:

The issues around the caricatures were a pretty big deal when phantom menace came out. This isn't coming out of thin air, and shockingly minorities who have experienced abuse do actually look for signs of abuse.

From what I can tell, the controversy started from a couple of podcasts and articles and became a sort of talking point ever since. That’s a different thing to it actually being an issue that most people recognise. 
 

Just because someone on the internet has found something to get some clicks , doesn’t make it a real problem.

[Derfel Cadarn]

24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

While that is correct in principle, if we talk about actual caricatures we talk about things which are easily recognizable as such. Many antisemitic stereotypes are easily recognizable as such - in fact, I'd even argue that the secret society of the Sith and the underhanded conspiratorial way in which Papatine takes over the galaxy acting in league with 'big money' is a much more pervasive antisemitic trope than Watto's 'hook-nose'. But folks usually don't point this out because neither Palpatine or Dooku look or appear Jewish - they are just evil conspirators in a fantasy world. And as such they embody such people and the general concept of the evil conspiracy, and not the imaginary Elders of Zion and the International Jewish Conspiracy.

I think with something like Star Wars one cannot really take the view that taking cultural aspects and traits from real world group A to add it to fantasy being B is, in principle, a comment on or caricature of real world people.

I mean, you can also take the Empire design as a kind of counter example. The Imperials speak with a British accent in the movies, while the rebels talk with an American accent. The design of the uniforms is reminiscent of the Nazis. Do the movies want to make the comment that the British/Germans are evil because we can associate them with the Empire? Or, in-universe, do the uniform parallels imply the Galactic Empire is (as) racist (or speciest) as the Nazis were in the real world?

I don't think so.

I don't remember the crows from Dumbo, so I cannot really comment on that. But where exactly did I ever state that animal allegories cannot be racist? I'd actually say that such allegories are actually a good way to spread racism by naturalizing (imagined) differences, etc.

But Star Wars isn't an animal allegory nor in general a work which intentionally and actively propagates and spreads racism or fascism.

The Imp - British, Rebels -American was more from Empire.

In ANH Leia had an English accent, and US/English accents were generally mixed between Imps and rebels. Largely due to most of the extras being English and dubbed over largely at random by Americans later on.

[sifth]

1 minute ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

The Imp - British, Rebels -American was more from Empire.

In ANH Leia had an English accent, and US/English accents were generally mixed between Imps and rebels. Largely due to most of the extras being English and dubbed over largely at random by Americans later on.

Leia's accent is all over the place in ANH. In certain scenes she's speaking with an English accent and in others with an American one.

[Heartofice]

People are British in Star Wars as a way of demonstrating intelligence

[polishgenius]

50 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, the point just is that even if Watto were definitely a Jew - he isn't that bad of a character, or is he?

My point is that arguing that attempting to defend Watto from evil Jewish trader stereotypes by claiming he's not evil is fucking bizarre given that both narratively- a character in the story purely to act as a roadblock to the protagonists - and morally in terms of our society- a slave owner- he definitely is a bad guy. 

 

But really your argument in this topic is a mess, because you're simultaneously trying to present the argument that Watto isn't a Jewish stereotype, that even if he is he isn't that evil, that even if he is it must be a coincidence because you can't map 'real' stereotypes onto invented alien races, and that if there's a Jewish stereotype in the series it must be the really evil guys (even though by your own admission they have none of the traits of antisemitic caricature). It's like you don't really have a position beyond 'Star Wars can't be mistaken' and are formulating the broadest possible set of arguments to maintain that position.

[Derfel Cadarn]

5 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

My point is that arguing that attempting to defend Watto from evil Jewish trader stereotypes by claiming he's not evil is fucking bizarre given that both narratively- a character in the story purely to act as a roadblock to the protagonists - and morally in terms of our society- a slave owner- he definitely is a bad guy. 

 

But really your argument in this topic is a mess, because you're simultaneously trying to present the argument that Watto isn't a Jewish stereotype, that even if he is he isn't that evil, that even if he is it must be a coincidence because you can't map 'real' stereotypes onto invented alien races, and that if there's a Jewish stereotype in the series it must be the really evil guys (even though by your own admission they have none of the traits of antisemitic caricature). It's like you don't really have a position beyond 'Star Wars can't be mistaken' and are formulating the broadest possible set of arguments to maintain that position.

Who separates mother and son, and willingly risks a 10 year okd in races

[Lord Varys]

To get it back to why I actually like how Star Wars has been dealing with that in the past:

Accents and a pidgin language can actually very easily and very effectively put across the point that different species have various difficulties speaking 'the common tongue' right, highlighting the fact that we have different sentient species there.

I get it that one can view the introduction of the Gungans as kind of childish ... but they do come into their own in the end. They are the strong people of Naboo, not the decadent Naboo with their (originally) pacifist queen.

3 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

The Imp - British, Rebels -American was more from Empire.

In ANH Leia had an English accent, and US/English accents were generally mixed between Imps and rebels. Largely due to most of the extras being English and dubbed over largely at random by Americans later on.

Oh, I know that this wasn't intentional. But they eventually realized it was the case and kept or reinforced it. You can certainly take that and then come up with an interpretation or even the claim that the movie actually does have an intention there.

And one can even go with that kind of thing there - Imperials embodying whatever counts for Core World High Culture in the galaxy, while the rebels are underdogs from the countryside ... or whatever.

3 minutes ago, sifth said:

Leia's accent is all over the place in ANH. In certain scenes she's speaking with an English accent and in others with an American one.

To continue this, Leia is an Imperial Senator in the beginning ... while she is secretly working for the rebels, she also does represent the Empire.

One should actually check whether Carrie talks more British when confronting Vader and Tarkin's British stench and more American when bossing around Han and Luke.

17 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

My point is that arguing that attempting to defend Watto from evil Jewish trader stereotypes by claiming he's not evil is fucking bizarre given that both narratively- a character in the story purely to act as a roadblock to the protagonists - and morally in terms of our society- a slave owner- he definitely is a bad guy. 

We might have massively different interpretations of Watto as a character. Yes, he is an obstacle the heroes have to overcome, but considering how easily Qui-Gon could have dealt with the guy (he is Jedi, after all) it seems as if the good guys are more or less indulging him. He is also pretty funny which doesn't make him seem villainy.

Yes, he is a slaver, but slavery is a reality on Tatooine, as the movie establishes, meaning not everybody who owns a slave is 'evil'. Qui-Gon also makes it pretty clear he didn't come to Tatooine to free slaves - it even seems it was a ridiculous idea to expect that a Jedi might do something like that. And Watto has kind of a parental scenes with Anakin. Remember the scene where he tells him he can go home once he finished his work? That could be anybody as a kid having his father or mother tell them they can only play after they have finished their homework/chores.

I think this take on slavery and Anakin's backstory is pretty bad for the character and the movies as a whole - he should have had a miserable, ugly life as a child and really view becoming a Jedi as his ticket out of an abusive environment. But that's not how the movie portrays things.

Sure, they can't leave Watto - but it is not that they have any place to go before the good guys show up.

17 minutes ago, polishgenius said:

But really your argument in this topic is a mess, because you're simultaneously trying to present the argument that Watto isn't a Jewish stereotype, that even if he is he isn't that evil, that even if he is it must be a coincidence because you can't map 'real' stereotypes onto invented alien races, and that if there's a Jewish stereotype in the series it must be the really evil guys (even though by your own admission they have none of the traits of antisemitic caricature). It's like you don't really have a position beyond 'Star Wars can't be mistaken' and are formulating the broadest possible set of arguments to maintain that position.

That wasn't the intention. I don't think Watto is a racist caricature. I do acknowledge your point that it might be the case that Watto ended up the way he is because the people designing him didn't properly check whether they were influenced or inspired to much by Jewish clichés - but he is still first and foremost a gigantic flying bug, not a Jewish man.

The take on the Sith conspiracy was an altogether different point that this is actually closer to a prevailing real world conspiracy theory about Jews than Watto's looks are. I mean, the PT very much sends the message that a couple of villains can trick the world into fighting an artificial war and create something that's literally called 'the New Order'. It isn't as concrete or visible as the design of a character - however you interpret him - but it is definitely there.

My take on alien races is that just taking aspects of cultures or ethnicities and people and animals to create fantasy beings (Watto's wings and eyes and trunk, etc. were also inspired by real world stuff) are not 'racist caricatures' unless they are clearly visible as such. And for that, I think, one has to actually model the fantasy world to a degree on the real world so that such parallels actually do become recognizable and meaningful. I think an actual judgment has to be rendered there. Somebody would have to make it explicit that folks look down on the Gungans, for instance. And that just doesn't happen.

33 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

Who separates mother and son, and willingly risks a 10 year okd in races

It is his favorite thing in the world and Qui-Gon does it, too. If having Anakin do pod races is supposed to be bad, the movie wastes a lot of time showing how awesome pod races are...

Shmi is also fine with staying behind and never opposes the idea that Anakin should go away with Qui-Gon. It seems pretty clear that Qui-Gon would have left Anakin with Watto if the boy and Shmi had not wanted to part.