Star Wars: Entering an uncivilized era

[DMC]

JFC, I can't believe there's actually a multi-page argument on whether or not Watto is a Jewish caricature.  Honestly that's not even an argument worth having - and no, it doesn't matter that he sounds exactly like Frank Pentangeli. 

If you didn't recognize Watto as a Jewish caricature, great for you!  But that doesn't mean - in the slightest - that the people that did identify him as a Jewish caricature are "looking to be offended."  I was 14 when TPM came out and I immediately recognized the depiction as a Jewish caricature.  As did most people in my town -- and yeah, that's probably because the town I grew up in was 40% Jewish.  Try telling them they're "just looking to be offended."

I mean it's not a huge deal or the end of the world, but sometimes this forum..just JFC.

[Heartofice]

I dunno, all of this is totally open to interpretation. Some people seem utterly convinced Watto is a caricature straight out of Jeremy Corbyns sketchbook, others just don’t see the connection. 
 

Either way I think the Prequels are littered with lazy caricatures, which was always one of the things I hated about it, mainly because they are so lazy and also so seemingly modern and out of place.

The OT was populated mainly with British or American accents or some alien languages. It felt organic to the universe. I guess there’s a couple of exceptions but it’s mainly true.

The prequels seemed to expand that out but it just felt weird. I mean I REALLY hate the pod race announcer, my god that shit it bad.

Watto also felt bad mainly because it just felt like a movie cliche I’d seen a hundred times before. That’s one of the reasons I’m not entirely sold on it because a Jewish stereotype, if only because that caricature is kind of widespread and not limited to Jews, but as a sort of catch all for ethnic salespeople, my first reaction was Morocco actually. He has a bunch of cliched characteristics, some of which could be associated with the old Jewish caricature, others which tie into other caricatures.

Anyway point being, it’s all interpretation, everyone’s experiences are different, but I do think a lot of people do come at these things through the lens of critically looking for things that are offensive, and jump to those conclusions. So for some people who might be highly sensitive to these caricatures, they are going to really see them because it’s something that they’ve tuned their senses to. Others that’s not the case.

[Raja]

35 minutes ago, DMC said:

If you didn't recognize Watto as a Jewish caricature, great for you!  But that doesn't mean - in the slightest - that the people that did identify him as a Jewish caricature are "looking to be offended." 

Agreed. I don't even realize the point of 'looking to be offended', given that there are so many other things wrong with the movie. Looking to be offended to what end?

Not making the association is totally reasonable but  @sifth not bothering to read about why it's a caricature and then aruging people are 'just looking to get offended' just because you don't know enough about the response to that character is intellectually lazy.

[sifth]

11 minutes ago, Raja said:

Agreed. I don't even realize the point of 'looking to be offended', given that there are so many other things wrong with the movie. Looking to be offended to what end?

Not making the association is totally reasonable but  @sifth not bothering to read about why it's a caricature and then aruging people are 'just looking to get offended' just because you don't know enough about the response to that character is intellectually lazy.

Sorry, but a conversation about a cartoon bug person = a Jewish stereotype is something I find too stupid to take seriously. The world is filled with so many things to be angry over, but I draw the line about fictional bug people.

 

[DMC]

31 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Either way I think the Prequels are littered with lazy caricatures, which was always one of the things I hated about it, mainly because they are so lazy and also so seemingly modern and out of place.

Yep.  The Trade Federation are obvious Japanese/East Asian caricatures and Jar Jar is an obvious black Caribbean caricature.  Does that make George Lucas racist?  No.  But pointing out these obvious associations is definitely not "looking to be offended" - not to mention as you say it's just very lazy and disappointing worldbuilding on Lucas' part.

34 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

That’s one of the reasons I’m not entirely sold on it because a Jewish stereotype, if only because that caricature is kind of widespread and not limited to Jews, but as a sort of catch all for ethnic salespeople, my first reaction was Morocco actually. He has a bunch of cliched characteristics, some of which could be associated with the old Jewish caricature, others which tie into other caricatures.

I mean, yeah, Watto is a Jewish stereotype, but more specifically his caricature is a classic southern/eastern European Jewish stereotype.  This stereotype of course extends to other ethnicities in the region as well.  I identified it as Jewish because those were the people of southern/eastern European descent I grew up with.  A person growing up in an Italian neighborhood may well identify Watto as an Italian caricature.  A person growing up in New York City might identify him as both a Jewish and Italilan caricature.  All of the above are correct.

[sifth]

6 minutes ago, DMC said:

Yep.  The Trade Federation are obvious Japanese/East Asian caricatures and Jar Jar is an obvious black Caribbean caricature.  Does that make George Lucas racist?  No.  But pointing out these obvious associations is definitely not "looking to be offended" - not to mention as you say it's just very lazy and disappointing worldbuilding on Lucas' part.

I mean, yeah, Watto is a Jewish stereotype, but more specifically his caricature is a classic southern/eastern European Jewish stereotype.  This stereotype of course extends to other ethnicities in the region as well.  I identified it as Jewish because those were the people of southern/eastern European descent I grew up with.  A person growing up in an Italian neighborhood may well identify Watto as an Italian caricature.  A person growing up in New York City might identify him as both a Jewish and Italilan caricature.  All of the above are correct.

Didn't this whole mess start, because someone accused the prequels of being racist? I've honestly lost track at this point.

I mean the films are horrible, some of the worst ever made, but that was never the reason why.

[Heartofice]

9 minutes ago, DMC said:

Yep.  The Trade Federation are obvious Japanese/East Asian caricatures and Jar Jar is an obvious black Caribbean caricature.  Does that make George Lucas racist?  No.  But pointing out these obvious associations

Depends if you actually are offended by them.. are you? 
 

(btw outside of him being played by a black guy I’ve no idea where this idea that Jar Jar is some black stereotype comes from. I don’t see it at all, in fact I’d find that suggestion more offensive to black people than the caricature itself)

9 minutes ago, DMC said:

49 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

 

I mean, yeah, Watto is a Jewish stereotype, but more specifically his caricature is a classic southern/eastern European Jewish stereotype.  This stereotype of course extends to other ethnicities in the region as well.  I identified it as Jewish because those were the people of southern/eastern European descent I grew up with.  A person growing up in an Italian neighborhood may well identify Watto as an Italian caricature.  A person growing up in New York City might identify him as both a Jewish and Italilan caricature.  All of the above are correct

Well my point here is where you see a Jewish character, cos of where you are from and your collective experience, I might see a Middle Eastern non Jewish character. Whether that is offensive to you is kind of up to interpretation.

Where I think we agree is that all of these characters were shit and lazy and out of place 

[DMC]

4 minutes ago, sifth said:

Didn't this whole mess start, because someone accused the prequels of being racist? I've honestly lost track at this point.

I mean the films are horrible, some of the worst ever made, but that was never the reason why.

It started out with mormont pointing out that the PT had thinly disguised racist caricatures.  And again, I don't think that point is arguable.

[Raja]

19 minutes ago, sifth said:

Sorry, but a conversation about a cartoon bug person = a Jewish stereotype is something I find too stupid to take seriously. The world is filled with so many things to be angry over, but I draw the line about fictional bug people.

 

Lol. I wish I could look at Art and not think about the world it comes from. Like DMC said, it's not arguable really but you keep wearing those blinkers.

[sifth]

1 minute ago, DMC said:

It started out with mormont pointing out that the PT had thinly disguised racist caricatures.  And again, I don't think that point is arguable.

So they're racist, because some of the aliens have real world accents? That's literally all I'm hearing from you guys. So basically all of the aliens good and bad, should have just had American accents.

[sifth]

4 minutes ago, Raja said:

Lol. I wish I could look at Art and not think about the world it comes from. Like DMC said, it's not arguable really but you keep wearing those blinkers.

I just view fiction as fiction at the end of the day. I try to save most of my anger for the real world issues. Usually I only find fiction offensive, when I see it trying to rewrite history, to meet a certain narrative.

Listen, for the record I respect your opinion, even if it's one I don't agree with. I always viewed the character as Italian, because he sounded a lot like my grandfather, lol

[Heartofice]

Are all caricatures offensive? Is Watto offensive if you view him as Jewish,  but not if you think he’s Italian? 
 

[DMC]

13 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Depends if you actually are offended by them.. are you?

I don't understand why whether or not me as a white male is personally offended matters in the slightest.

13 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

btw outside of him being played by a black guy I’ve no idea where this idea that Jar Jar is some black stereotype comes from.

It comes from the centuries long history of black caricatures depicted in this country.

13 minutes ago, Heartofice said:

Well my point here is where you see a Jewish character, cos of where you are from and your collective experience, I might see a Middle Eastern non Jewish character. Whether that is offensive to you is kind of up to interpretation.

Where did I say that would offend me?  As I said from the beginning, if you didn't identify Watto as a Jewish character, good for you.  Just don't act like people that do identify him as such are simply "looking to be offended."  Considering how obvious the associations are, that's absurd.

9 minutes ago, sifth said:

So they're racist, because some of the aliens have real world accents?

No, they are racist caricatures because they are racist caricatures.  Google image Jewish caricatures and tell me you would not associate those caricatures with Watto.

[sifth]

Just now, DMC said:

No, they are racist caricatures because they are racist caricatures.  Google image Jewish caricatures and tell you me you would not associate those caricatures with Watto.

I mean I did just as you said and then at a picture of Watto and just don't see it. The two look nothing alike to me and as I said, above the character always sounded like my grandfather to me, who had a deep Italian accent.

[DMC]

8 minutes ago, sifth said:

I mean I did just as you said and then at a picture of Watto and just don't see it. The two look nothing alike to me and as I said, above the character always sounded like my grandfather to me, who had a deep Italian accent.

Jewish caricature.  Watto.  Yep, I just don't see it.  

ETA:  Sorry first link didn't work, dunno what I did there.

[Ran]

4 minutes ago, sifth said:

I mean I did just as you said and then at a picture of Watto and just don't see it. The two look nothing alike to me and as I said, above the character always sounded like my grandfather to me, who had a deep Italian accent.

Andy Secombe, the voice actor, really did base him on a Godfather-type Italian-American mobster. The Frank Pentangeli thing is spot on.

The early critics who called it anti-Semitic all cited the voice acting as part of their evidence, claiming it was based on Yiddish or Arabic, but I admit, I never heard it. Secombe said it was the voice he used for his audition -- character sight unseen (and I'm not sure it was designed by that point) -- after George Lucas's direction that Watto was like a "used car salesman". 

[Kalbear]

22 minutes ago, sifth said:

So they're racist, because some of the aliens have real world accents? That's literally all I'm hearing from you guys. So basically all of the aliens good and bad, should have just had American accents.

They really aren't real world accents - they're hugely overexaggerated caricatures of them.

The better way to do alien accents is literally how the OT did - all aliens speak different languages and everyone responds to them in English. 

[Kalbear]

Also, imo, watto is not nearly as bad as jar jar and that whole race of primitive spear and ball throwing natives speaking a Carribean patois, or the Charlie chan bullshit that was the trade federation for no actual point. 

[Heartofice]

33 minutes ago, DMC said:

It comes from the centuries long history of black caricatures depicted in this country.

Yeah so here I simply don’t see it at all. I don’t think Gungans are like black people at all, it sounds pretty absurd. I’m very aware of the stereotypes you are citing and I don’t see it.

This to me, is an example of you making a connection which might seem really obvious to you but might not to other people. I’d suggest this is because:

A) you are hyper sensitive to spotting racial stereotypes, most likely because of your political leanings and the sort of stuff you read and consume.

B ) you are a racist.

Im pretty sure it’s A, and that’s backed up by the other people on this thread who are extremely convinced of the stereotypes, who not by coincidence have very similar political leanings to you ( and histories of being offended by stuff). I hope so anyway. 

So just because you are making the connection, it doesn’t mean it’s there, and certainly doesn’t mean it’s intended. 

[DMC]

1 minute ago, Heartofice said:

Yeah so here I simply don’t see it at all. I don’t think Gungans are like black people at all, it sounds pretty absurd. I’m very aware of the stereotypes you are citing and I don’t see it.

I didn't say all Gungans - frankly I don't remember much more than the king or whatever right now anyway - I meant Jar Jar specifically.  If you can't see the obvious connections that's your problem.  As for your completely idiotic suggestion that identifying these obvious connections means you either have a political agenda or are racist yourself, LOL!